Following on from the sage advice profferred from my last posting I decided to do a little 'experiment'.
I figured that if I settled into my shot, aligned the sights and then shut my eyes during the trigger release I would be able to disconect the tendency to let my brain tell me to interupt an otherwise smooth trigger release. Its not a good experiment because I am affecting two things by shutting my eyes - my tendency to watch the target (I try not too but I am sure my subconcious intervenes negatively here - I need to learn not to let it affect my subconscious!) AND my ability to align the sights.
None the less the result was very interesting. I felt VERY happy with the process of the trigger release - always smooth and an unpredictable break. When I wound the target back I was stunned to see a pretty good grouping. Nothing to be proud of at all, but astonishing considering I shot it with my eyes closed.
It only occured to me later that firing at a blank target card is the proper 'experiment' in that it only removes the target from the equation.
Are there any drills you can recommend for training your brain to disengage from trying to control trigger release?
An 'experiment' with the shot process.
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Re: An 'experiment' with the shot process.
Hmm,Mike S-J wrote:Following on from the sage advice profferred from my last posting I decided to do a little 'experiment'.
I figured that if I settled into my shot, aligned the sights and then shut my eyes during the trigger release I would be able to disconect the tendency to let my brain tell me to interupt an otherwise smooth trigger release. Its not a good experiment because I am affecting two things by shutting my eyes - my tendency to watch the target (I try not too but I am sure my subconcious intervenes negatively here - I need to learn not to let it affect my subconscious!) AND my ability to align the sights.
None the less the result was very interesting. I felt VERY happy with the process of the trigger release - always smooth and an unpredictable break. When I wound the target back I was stunned to see a pretty good grouping. Nothing to be proud of at all, but astonishing considering I shot it with my eyes closed.
It only occured to me later that firing at a blank target card is the proper 'experiment' in that it only removes the target from the equation.
Are there any drills you can recommend for training your brain to disengage from trying to control trigger release?
I don't quite follow the logic. The whole point is to let your subconscious decide when to release the trigger not to stop it. It is the subconscious that gives you the good shots, it's the conscious bit that buggers it up. You watch the foresight in relation to (an out of focus) target and slowly increase the trigger pressure - the subconscious effectively decides the best time to release the shot.
The only thing that I'm aware works is to learn to trust in your subconscious. You need to practice lots and shoot lots and let it do it's own thing.
Rob.
Re: An 'experiment' with the shot process.
- Lots of trigger releasesMike S-J wrote:Are there any drills you can recommend for training your brain to disengage from trying to control trigger release?
- there are various 'diversion' techniques, but (arguably?) the best is concentrating on the front sight
- Oh, and lots of trigger releases
S
Rob,
The experiment was not designed in the context of the logic of an experienced shooter - rather for my benefit (to get a feel for how much to trust my point of aim). So don't look too hard for logic or you will be disappointed.
What arose from it (in my head) was this.
1). You guys who have gone down/ are on the path to shooting well undertake correct training in order to achieve subconscious shot release (my inference).
2). Those of us who are ankle-biters in the pistol world have to accept this but also have to deal with the issue of learning to erase the subconscious urge to pull the trigger when we see the target sit in the right place.
Although I understand the theory and am really trying to achieve #1, I find that #2 keeps creeping up and biting my ass.
Shooting at a blank sheet now makes perfect sense to me - so my illogical experiment has had a tangible benefit.
My guess (hope?) is the switch from 2 to 1 may be akin to the process that engages when you learn to ride a bike. How naive is that?
The experiment was not designed in the context of the logic of an experienced shooter - rather for my benefit (to get a feel for how much to trust my point of aim). So don't look too hard for logic or you will be disappointed.
What arose from it (in my head) was this.
1). You guys who have gone down/ are on the path to shooting well undertake correct training in order to achieve subconscious shot release (my inference).
2). Those of us who are ankle-biters in the pistol world have to accept this but also have to deal with the issue of learning to erase the subconscious urge to pull the trigger when we see the target sit in the right place.
Although I understand the theory and am really trying to achieve #1, I find that #2 keeps creeping up and biting my ass.
Shooting at a blank sheet now makes perfect sense to me - so my illogical experiment has had a tangible benefit.
My guess (hope?) is the switch from 2 to 1 may be akin to the process that engages when you learn to ride a bike. How naive is that?
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pistoleroo
At the World Championchips in Lahti in Finland in 2002 i had the opportunity to watch the chinese team excercise the standard pistol program (10 sek strings especially).
For hours, they would align individually at a firing point, aim the gun, then close their eyes and shoot the 10 sek strings.
The results varied, some very good groops, some less so. The less than perfect strings showed a marked lateral spread, the 5 impacts more or less on a (tilted) line.
This was commented by the coach, and the parksmen tried hard to counteract this lateral spreading.
The ability to shoot tight groops this way varied markedly among the individuals of the chinese team.
For hours, they would align individually at a firing point, aim the gun, then close their eyes and shoot the 10 sek strings.
The results varied, some very good groops, some less so. The less than perfect strings showed a marked lateral spread, the 5 impacts more or less on a (tilted) line.
This was commented by the coach, and the parksmen tried hard to counteract this lateral spreading.
The ability to shoot tight groops this way varied markedly among the individuals of the chinese team.
Most of what you say makes sense except the above, what you are describing is the conscious urge to pull the trigger when you see the site picture you are looking for.2). Those of us who are ankle-biters in the pistol world have to accept this but also have to deal with the issue of learning to erase the subconscious urge to pull the trigger when we see the target sit in the right place.
You actually want a subconscious trigger release.
I see a lot of value in this type of an exercise and I agree that shooting at a blank target should do essentially the same thing.
The purpose of an exercise like this is to convince the shooter that there really is an advantage to (1) focus on the front sight and ignore the target and (2) pull straight through the trigger uninterupted.
Some shooters accept the word of authority and go forward. Others question everything they are told and don't accept it until they have proven it to themselves. The rest of us are somewhere in-between. I know I had a hard time accepting that I should shoot without looking at the target or that I should keep pulling the trigger even if the sights drift out of alignment. It took a lot of drills to convince myself that conventional wisdom is usually pretty good.
Steve T
The purpose of an exercise like this is to convince the shooter that there really is an advantage to (1) focus on the front sight and ignore the target and (2) pull straight through the trigger uninterupted.
Some shooters accept the word of authority and go forward. Others question everything they are told and don't accept it until they have proven it to themselves. The rest of us are somewhere in-between. I know I had a hard time accepting that I should shoot without looking at the target or that I should keep pulling the trigger even if the sights drift out of alignment. It took a lot of drills to convince myself that conventional wisdom is usually pretty good.
Steve T
I see a lot of value in this type of an exercise and I agree that shooting at a blank target should do essentially the same thing.
The purpose of an exercise like this is to convince the shooter that there really is an advantage to (1) focus on the front sight and ignore the target and (2) pull straight through the trigger uninterupted.
Some shooters accept the word of authority and go forward. Others question everything they are told and don't accept it until they have proven it to themselves. The rest of us are somewhere in-between. I know I had a hard time accepting that I should shoot without looking at the target or that I should keep pulling the trigger even if the sights drift out of alignment. It took a lot of drills to convince myself that conventional wisdom is usually pretty good.
Steve T
The purpose of an exercise like this is to convince the shooter that there really is an advantage to (1) focus on the front sight and ignore the target and (2) pull straight through the trigger uninterupted.
Some shooters accept the word of authority and go forward. Others question everything they are told and don't accept it until they have proven it to themselves. The rest of us are somewhere in-between. I know I had a hard time accepting that I should shoot without looking at the target or that I should keep pulling the trigger even if the sights drift out of alignment. It took a lot of drills to convince myself that conventional wisdom is usually pretty good.
Steve T
Similar purpose trick
http://www.airgunning.com/images/pistol ... leta_8.jpg
As I understand the idea the circle above the rear sight should be a little bit more than visible target size.
http://www.airgunning.com/images/pistol ... leta_8.jpg
As I understand the idea the circle above the rear sight should be a little bit more than visible target size.
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Nicole Hamilton
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Re: An 'experiment' with the shot process.
The problem I see is that while one's sense of balance (coming from the inner ear) is enough to keep us standing with our eyes closed, it's not nearly so precise as visual reference. Close your eyes and you're going to wobble more. (Try it, especially standing on one leg, and have someone watch.) Also, while your sense of balance can help control overall body position, it doesn't help at all with the position of your arms; if you close your eyes, all you can do is hope you're not moving your arm because you certainly don't have much precise feedback just from your muscles.Mike S-J wrote:I figured that if I settled into my shot, aligned the sights and then shut my eyes during the trigger release I would be able to disconect the tendency to let my brain tell me to interupt an otherwise smooth trigger release.
But also, from experience, I don't see how this works. The biggest single reason for my own flyers is accidentally taking my eye off the sights (or blinking) as I pull the trigger. (Right behind that is reflexily trying to jerk the gun back to perfect alignment if it wasn't aligned well when the trigger went off; I'm always better off, if I can force myself to do it, just following through with wherever the gun actually was pointed.)
If closing your eyes when you pull the trigger seems to help, it sounds to me like there are some other things to work on! You don't mention what sort of gun you were doing this with, but if you're having trouble with trigger control and follow-through with a cartridge gun, you might think about getting an air pistol. What's great about an AP is that if the gun moves when it fires, that's you, not recoil, which makes it a lot easier to diagnose and correct a problem and to work on skills like calling the shot. I found that when I started shooting AP in my basement, my .22 BE scores shot up almost overnight.
Correlations
The correlation between FP and BE shooting is an interesting phenomenon---while the FP skills consist basically of working with a trigger around 15 grams pull slow fire, and the BE pistol from 2#-~5# from slo to ragged fire. I found that when I practised more with the FP my BE scores went up dramatically---I think it's that the FP trigger requires awesome patience and extremely careful use and shows the newcomer that trigger squeeeeeeeeze isn't any easier with the light trigger. Also the necessity of the pull coming straight back without any sidewise pressure. BTW saw your website and I think your choice of stopping flying lessons in that Piper ??Tomahawk???---it had more AWD's ( Air Worthiness Directives ) than any other general aviation plane out there. They used to literally fall apart in the skies on Long Island---there aren't many left around here, that can still fly. I will stick to my Cessna 150 put-put it's had two engines in it and going strong on the newest.
Re: An 'experiment' with the shot process.
1) Dry fire, in front of a (white!) wall. Front sight must be still.
2) Real fire, on a blank (reversed) target.
3) Real fire. But shoot with the other hand (and the other eye, if possible).
4) Real fire. But when your pistol moves, and the target goes, stop squeezing the trigger but keep the pistol on aim and keep the finger on the trigger with *exactly* the *same* weight (i.e. 450 grams). And when the pistol returns on perfect aim, keep on squeezing the trigger again (i.e. from 450 grams). And so on. This way is very difficult to shoot a bad shot. Difficult technique eh?
2) Real fire, on a blank (reversed) target.
3) Real fire. But shoot with the other hand (and the other eye, if possible).
4) Real fire. But when your pistol moves, and the target goes, stop squeezing the trigger but keep the pistol on aim and keep the finger on the trigger with *exactly* the *same* weight (i.e. 450 grams). And when the pistol returns on perfect aim, keep on squeezing the trigger again (i.e. from 450 grams). And so on. This way is very difficult to shoot a bad shot. Difficult technique eh?
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James Hurr
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- Location: Australia
Exercises
Shooting with your eyes shut is an excellent exercise, as is shooting on a blank target. Smooth trigger release is much more important than perfect sight alignment, at 25m anyway.
I don't agree with the idea you can consciously or unconsciously release the trigger at the precise moment the sights are perfectly aligned and perfectly aligned with the target, according to probability that may happen for a millisecond per shot, if you're lucky. In timed fire you simply don't have the option to wait anyway, you have to let the shot go or get a zero so better to practise getting steady '9's and '10's than trying to force 'X's and probably getting misses.
You are going to have to release the shot when the sights are imperfect so might as try to do it as smoothly as possible.
Just accept you have some wobble, squeeze the trigger smoothly, by law of averages if you can hold the '9' ring with your aim and release smoothly ~half your shots will be '10s'.
Taking the rearsight off and shooting with just the foresight on a blank target is also an interesting exercise :)
I don't agree with the idea you can consciously or unconsciously release the trigger at the precise moment the sights are perfectly aligned and perfectly aligned with the target, according to probability that may happen for a millisecond per shot, if you're lucky. In timed fire you simply don't have the option to wait anyway, you have to let the shot go or get a zero so better to practise getting steady '9's and '10's than trying to force 'X's and probably getting misses.
You are going to have to release the shot when the sights are imperfect so might as try to do it as smoothly as possible.
Just accept you have some wobble, squeeze the trigger smoothly, by law of averages if you can hold the '9' ring with your aim and release smoothly ~half your shots will be '10s'.
Taking the rearsight off and shooting with just the foresight on a blank target is also an interesting exercise :)
Re: Exercises
James,James Hurr wrote: I don't agree with the idea you can consciously or unconsciously release the trigger at the precise moment the sights are perfectly aligned and perfectly aligned with the target, according to probability that may happen for a millisecond per shot, if you're lucky. In timed fire you simply don't have the option to wait anyway, you have to let the shot go or get a zero so better to practise getting steady '9's and '10's than trying to force 'X's and probably getting misses.
You are going to have to release the shot when the sights are imperfect so might as try to do it as smoothly as possible.
The point is that the subconscious can do the shot release in the time required (which is probably milliseconds). It's effectively shortcuts the eye to brain to trigger finger process and goes from a to c (as I understand it). If it didn't how do you explain the massive scores that are attained ? - it isn't just very small holds.
The 'trick' is to let the subconsious do it's own it thing - it will suprise you how very good it is.
Rob.
Re: Exercises
[Rob]
'The point is that the subconscious can do the shot release in the time required (which is probably milliseconds). It's effectively shortcuts the eye to brain to trigger finger process and goes from a to c (as I understand it). If it didn't how do you explain the massive scores that are attained ?'
Excellent. The 'subconscious' decides 'if' and 'when'. This also means that if the aim is not perfect the shot is not released.
'The point is that the subconscious can do the shot release in the time required (which is probably milliseconds). It's effectively shortcuts the eye to brain to trigger finger process and goes from a to c (as I understand it). If it didn't how do you explain the massive scores that are attained ?'
Excellent. The 'subconscious' decides 'if' and 'when'. This also means that if the aim is not perfect the shot is not released.
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Steve Swartz
Excellent discussion so far.
Aim= pointing at the target (will never be perfect; settle into your minimum wobble and accept it)
Align= relationship between front and rear sights (make it perfect)
Dry and live fire at a blank target WHILE MAINTAINING PERFECT ALIGNMENT thousands of times. Focus on alignment while doing so- this will provide you feedback necessary to perfect trigger control AND burn into your brain the execution of perfect trigger control while sights are prefectly ALIGNED.
O.K., you are now able to shoot 600 . . . unless, of course, you screw it up once a target is placed in your field of view . . . your subconscious will (with some repetition of perfect practice) figure out how far ahead of time to send the "release the shot" signal.
Steve
Aim= pointing at the target (will never be perfect; settle into your minimum wobble and accept it)
Align= relationship between front and rear sights (make it perfect)
Dry and live fire at a blank target WHILE MAINTAINING PERFECT ALIGNMENT thousands of times. Focus on alignment while doing so- this will provide you feedback necessary to perfect trigger control AND burn into your brain the execution of perfect trigger control while sights are prefectly ALIGNED.
O.K., you are now able to shoot 600 . . . unless, of course, you screw it up once a target is placed in your field of view . . . your subconscious will (with some repetition of perfect practice) figure out how far ahead of time to send the "release the shot" signal.
Steve
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Nicole Hamilton
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Interesting question, but perhaps these are not so much in conflict as might appear. What we certainly know is that jerking the trigger usually means jerking the gun, which is why we want only the smallest possible movement at the time of release and why follow-through is so important.Lents wrote:"Release signal" - does not it conflict with "smooth trigger release" ?
What Steve seems to saying is that if we can train ourselves to the point where our response is autonomic (e.g., the way we blink our eyes when something's coming at them without having to think about it, or the way we reflexively stomp on the brake without having to think about it when a child runs in front of our car), it will certainly be faster. The point seems so obvious from everyday experience that it hardly seems likely any of us would disagree.
Putting the two points together, it seems likely that the best results are obtained when the autonomic response we train for is to give only just the tiniest possible, barely perceptible twitch of the finger needed to fire the gun. That means you need almost but not quite enough pressure on the trigger already. How do you get that? Smooth trigger pull.
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James Hurr
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- Location: Australia
Subconscious shot
Does anyone have the figures for reaction times, conscious or unconscious?
I believe you can train yourself to release at more or less the optimum moment, by increasing trigger pressure as your aim settles down.
Otherwise I don't believe the human mental reaction and muscular response times are quick enough to achieve when people are saying here.
'Almost but not quite enough pressure' means your trigger finger has stopped moving, so when it starts again it will by definition jerk.
There will be a difference in best technique between say free pistol and centrefire.
I believe you can train yourself to release at more or less the optimum moment, by increasing trigger pressure as your aim settles down.
Otherwise I don't believe the human mental reaction and muscular response times are quick enough to achieve when people are saying here.
'Almost but not quite enough pressure' means your trigger finger has stopped moving, so when it starts again it will by definition jerk.
There will be a difference in best technique between say free pistol and centrefire.
James,
I don't know figures for reaction times off hand but 'quick enough' is good enough for me, I'm sure it's documented all over the internet if you have a search. I shoot mainly air pistol but I have no problems with smooth shot release. I also don't understand why you think the trigger release must be a 'jerk'. The whole point is that it's done smoothly in a straight line with the bore and the straight pull doesn't disturb the sight picture.
Rob.
I don't know figures for reaction times off hand but 'quick enough' is good enough for me, I'm sure it's documented all over the internet if you have a search. I shoot mainly air pistol but I have no problems with smooth shot release. I also don't understand why you think the trigger release must be a 'jerk'. The whole point is that it's done smoothly in a straight line with the bore and the straight pull doesn't disturb the sight picture.
Rob.