Thats my mantra, but here is a question that has arisen after 2,000 or so implementations of it.
As I lower my sights into the POA, focus on them and hold them in alignment, they gently waft around the 'perfect' placement.
As I begin to squeeze, they continue to gently move into and out of the perfect placement (i.e. sights aligned and target sitting squarely on top of the foresight).
When the shot releases I can call a sweet shot (perfect placement when the shot broke and perfect placement in the follow through), and a bad shot (good placement prior to breaking but movement out of that zone during the follow through). Occasionaly I have a shot that I fail to call correctly - one that was apparently badly placed prior to breaking and the aligned sights have moved to another bad place in the follow through: however, they appear to have moved through the right zone in their travels and placed the shot into the center of the target.
OK - long preamble, but here is my question (at last). How does one "control" or "predict" the pattern of all this gentle movement around the target? - at present I seem unable to do either: consequently I am struggling to implement a convergence between my squeezing (i.e. shot release) and how my beatifully aligned sights move to my desired point of placement.
Does that make any sense?
POA sorted, sights aligned, squeeze...
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Nothing special:
I am a UK club-standard squash player (I play 2-3 times a week in league 3 in a club with 9 leagues, and national standard players in league 1) so I am relatively fit and supple.
Immediately prior to my shooting session I stretch (arm across trunk / reach down middle of back/ shake wrists loose/ push against wall with calf stretch/ swing arms).
Between each target of 10 shots I shake-loose and stretch.
Thats it.
I am a UK club-standard squash player (I play 2-3 times a week in league 3 in a club with 9 leagues, and national standard players in league 1) so I am relatively fit and supple.
Immediately prior to my shooting session I stretch (arm across trunk / reach down middle of back/ shake wrists loose/ push against wall with calf stretch/ swing arms).
Between each target of 10 shots I shake-loose and stretch.
Thats it.
In theory (I believe) you should be able to get your hold small enough such that you are in the ten zone for long enough. If you allow it to, your subconscious should be able to pick the right time for the shot to go when you have it all right. By focussing 100% on the foresight you should be able to call all the shots.
One thing I would advise is not to play squash close to your shooting sessions, at least not before competitions. By that I would advise something like a 3 day break if possible.
Rob.
One thing I would advise is not to play squash close to your shooting sessions, at least not before competitions. By that I would advise something like a 3 day break if possible.
Rob.
Rob,
Advice taken on board, but my confusion still remains.
You said "if you allow it to...". Maybe thats what I am struggling with. How do I allow my subconscious to take over? At the moment I am not letting (to the best of my ability) my brain tell my finger to pull the trigger. But it seems to me that there must be some predictability in the system that is coordinating the convergence between my drifting arm and my squeezing finger such that holes appear in the 10.
Are you saying that practice and 'zen-like' patience is the route?
Advice taken on board, but my confusion still remains.
You said "if you allow it to...". Maybe thats what I am struggling with. How do I allow my subconscious to take over? At the moment I am not letting (to the best of my ability) my brain tell my finger to pull the trigger. But it seems to me that there must be some predictability in the system that is coordinating the convergence between my drifting arm and my squeezing finger such that holes appear in the 10.
Are you saying that practice and 'zen-like' patience is the route?
-
jrmcdaniel
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Grantsville, MD
My approach is to:
0. Find a comfortable position. Extend your gun toward the target, close your eyes for a few seconds, check your aim point. If your aim point has shifted, adjust with your foot position, not with your arm or hand. Try again. I find a fairly open stance works best for me.
1. For the shot, I extend my arm and align the sights against a plain area at the top of the target (or the backer).
2. Drop this "picture" of aligned sights onto the target and complete the "picture." You should only have to concentrate on the front sight at this time since the sights will remain aligned from step 1 through the shot.
3. I try to maintain this picture by thinking of guiding the gun using the trigger. (I say "think" because this is more how it feels than how it really happens.). Doing it this way, one tends to apply increasing pressure more automatically when the picture is perfect. Thinking about the individual elements of the picture is counter-productive IHMO.
All this is just what I have gleaned from reading and trying various things. No coaching input (I've tried to find someone without luck so far). I started 2 years ago and now shoot 540/600 and am still improving (albeit more slowly).
Better shooting,
Joe
0. Find a comfortable position. Extend your gun toward the target, close your eyes for a few seconds, check your aim point. If your aim point has shifted, adjust with your foot position, not with your arm or hand. Try again. I find a fairly open stance works best for me.
1. For the shot, I extend my arm and align the sights against a plain area at the top of the target (or the backer).
2. Drop this "picture" of aligned sights onto the target and complete the "picture." You should only have to concentrate on the front sight at this time since the sights will remain aligned from step 1 through the shot.
3. I try to maintain this picture by thinking of guiding the gun using the trigger. (I say "think" because this is more how it feels than how it really happens.). Doing it this way, one tends to apply increasing pressure more automatically when the picture is perfect. Thinking about the individual elements of the picture is counter-productive IHMO.
All this is just what I have gleaned from reading and trying various things. No coaching input (I've tried to find someone without luck so far). I started 2 years ago and now shoot 540/600 and am still improving (albeit more slowly).
Better shooting,
Joe
-
Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Mike,Mike S-J wrote: You said "if you allow it to...". Maybe thats what I am struggling with. How do I allow my subconscious to take over? At the moment I am not letting (to the best of my ability) my brain tell my finger to pull the trigger. But it seems to me that there must be some predictability in the system that is coordinating the convergence between my drifting arm and my squeezing finger such that holes appear in the 10.
Are you saying that practice and 'zen-like' patience is the route?
There are other approaches besides the one Rob describes, though all require trust in the ability of the subconscious to release the shot at the best moment. One that has come back into favour recently, wth the success of Brian Zins, is to place ones mental focus on release of the trigger rather than on maintaining sight alignment.
Couple of thoughts on the process you describe:As I lower my sights into the POA, focus on them and hold them in alignment, they gently waft around the 'perfect' placement.
As I begin to squeeze, they continue to gently move into and out of the perfect placement (i.e. sights aligned and target sitting squarely on top of the foresight).
Experiment with a sub 6 hold
Experiment with starting release of the trigger before 'perfect placement' is achieved.
If you do decide to make changes in your shot process, do one change at a time and give each a few weeks before deciding whether it helps or not.
good luck,
Fred
-
Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Joe,2. Drop this "picture" of aligned sights onto the target and complete the "picture." You should only have to concentrate on the front sight at this time since the sights will remain aligned from step 1 through the shot.
My process is similar to yours. I continue to struggle with - the sights will remain in alignment - . They do if my grip is correct and my release is correct. I have put effort into fitting the grips to my hand as well as training time on trigger release. Current drill emphasizes keeping the front sight motionless while live or dry firing on a blank card. What are your favorites?
I am about where you are - 2 yrs into AP, shooting about 540, late 60's.
Regards,
Fred
As you've seen others have slightly different approaches. I however belief it is largely practice which involves both teaching the sub conscious and learning to let it go free. Remember the suconscious can only work if it is allowed to. Try and do it consciously and it will mess you up. If you really concentrate on the sight picture that should occupy the conscious mind such that the subconscious does the important bit. It isn't however an easy thing to do and I know I struggle at times (most if I'm honest).Mike S-J wrote:Rob,
Advice taken on board, but my confusion still remains.
You said "if you allow it to...". Maybe thats what I am struggling with. How do I allow my subconscious to take over? At the moment I am not letting (to the best of my ability) my brain tell my finger to pull the trigger. But it seems to me that there must be some predictability in the system that is coordinating the convergence between my drifting arm and my squeezing finger such that holes appear in the 10.
Are you saying that practice and 'zen-like' patience is the route?
Rob.
-
jrmcdaniel
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Grantsville, MD
Early 60s.Fred Mannis wrote:Current drill emphasizes keeping the front sight motionless while live or dry firing on a blank card. What are your favorites? ...late 60's.Fred
I figured out what worked best for keeping alignment by dry firing while aiming at a target so I could see any movement. I found that "thinking" about pulling the trigger soewhat down (toward the heel of my hand) helped. It may be that is really just a straight pull, but my mental image is to pull that direction. Placement of your finger on the trigger can make a difference -- I tried the usual with the ball of my finger on the trigger but found that I have better results with the blade at my first joint.
As I noted earlier, without a coach I have experimented with (or lucked into) things that work for me. No guarantee they will work for you but I keep an open mind when I hear something interesting.
Best,
Joe
After reading the thread about Bullseye shooting in Shooters lounge I got curious and subscribed to the list. Found some interesting subjects and links about shooting technique.
Brian Zins about using the trigger to control the sight picture :
http://box8.bluehost.com/~williamd/nepi ... bae731552f
There is also a video from Ed Hall's site :
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/SP10rdString.mpg
It's a hefty download at about 10 megs.
Thanks Ed,
- Ned
Brian Zins about using the trigger to control the sight picture :
http://box8.bluehost.com/~williamd/nepi ... bae731552f
There is also a video from Ed Hall's site :
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/SP10rdString.mpg
It's a hefty download at about 10 megs.
Thanks Ed,
- Ned
-
Pradeep5
Just concentrate on the front/back sight alignment itself, if you are seeing yourself wobbling out of the "perfect" spot you probably aren't "really" looking at the sights, more the target. And then whilst all your focus is on the front sight, start squeezing the trigger. When you have the surprise release, you know that'll be a good shot.Fred Mannis wrote: Current drill emphasizes keeping the front sight motionless while live or dry firing on a blank card. What are your favorites?
-
Steve Swartz
A Technique Post! WOO-HOO!
O.K., very much abbreviated response.
You will never be able to consciously time the release of the shot; and you will prevent progress (and develop bad habits) if you try to do so.
There are many ways to describe the "generally accepted" process; Brian Zin's take is a little different semantically but in practice they are all pretty much the same:
1) Align the sights
2) Settle into aiming area
3) Make sure the sights are really aligned and you are focusing on front sight
4) Increase pressure without thinking about anything other than keeping the sights aligned
During step 4, if at any time you find yourself thinking about how the perfectly aligned sights are floating around with respect tot he target, ABORT!
Steve
p.s. you will have to totally "trust the process" thousands of times before your subconscious figures it out. As you are doing that, you will hsoot a lot of clinkers but don't get frustrated; don't give up!
O.K., very much abbreviated response.
You will never be able to consciously time the release of the shot; and you will prevent progress (and develop bad habits) if you try to do so.
There are many ways to describe the "generally accepted" process; Brian Zin's take is a little different semantically but in practice they are all pretty much the same:
1) Align the sights
2) Settle into aiming area
3) Make sure the sights are really aligned and you are focusing on front sight
4) Increase pressure without thinking about anything other than keeping the sights aligned
During step 4, if at any time you find yourself thinking about how the perfectly aligned sights are floating around with respect tot he target, ABORT!
Steve
p.s. you will have to totally "trust the process" thousands of times before your subconscious figures it out. As you are doing that, you will hsoot a lot of clinkers but don't get frustrated; don't give up!
Steve,
would very much appreciate a longer response if you have the time and/or inclination.
If you think its too specific for the post send it via personal message.
If I understand you correctly I draw the following inferences:
1). The function of the eyes is to maintain sight alignment.
2). The function of stance and the shooting arm is to point at the target.
3). The function of the trigger finger is to squeeze gently.
4). The function of the brain is to coordinate 2 & 3, NOT 1, 2 &3.
If my conclusion above is correct then I think the penny may have dropped re. the process you just described.
Sorry to break it down into what may be naive functional units - but my brain copes better if I have some mechanistic insight into what I am trying to do - its easier to trust the point of "thousands of shots before I train my subconcious".
To all posters on this thread - thanks for some thought-provoking and inspiring advice.
would very much appreciate a longer response if you have the time and/or inclination.
If you think its too specific for the post send it via personal message.
If I understand you correctly I draw the following inferences:
1). The function of the eyes is to maintain sight alignment.
2). The function of stance and the shooting arm is to point at the target.
3). The function of the trigger finger is to squeeze gently.
4). The function of the brain is to coordinate 2 & 3, NOT 1, 2 &3.
If my conclusion above is correct then I think the penny may have dropped re. the process you just described.
Sorry to break it down into what may be naive functional units - but my brain copes better if I have some mechanistic insight into what I am trying to do - its easier to trust the point of "thousands of shots before I train my subconcious".
To all posters on this thread - thanks for some thought-provoking and inspiring advice.
[quote]........
1). The function of the eyes is to maintain sight alignment.
2). The function of stance and the shooting arm is to point at the target.
3). The function of the trigger finger is to squeeze gently.
4). The function of the brain is to coordinate 2 & 3, NOT 1, 2 &3.
..........[/quote]
My opinionated take on the functions above is
1. the eyes see, and deliver information for the minds assessment of the alignment, steadiness, stability (stability also sensed body-wide, as in sway), and triggering.
2. The stance (grip and hold), provides the sight alignment, steadiness, stability, gun control as in recoil management. (Pointing at target is just a matter of orientation)
3. Trigger finger is a tool of the mind to optimally release the shot.
4. the mind takes information from the eyes and guides the physical things 2-3, (holding, triggering)
More briefly, you physically (1)"see" the sight, (2)"control" the gun, (3)"release" the shot with the (4)minds guidance.
Underneath these generalizations is a host of confusing and overlapping details.
1). The function of the eyes is to maintain sight alignment.
2). The function of stance and the shooting arm is to point at the target.
3). The function of the trigger finger is to squeeze gently.
4). The function of the brain is to coordinate 2 & 3, NOT 1, 2 &3.
..........[/quote]
My opinionated take on the functions above is
1. the eyes see, and deliver information for the minds assessment of the alignment, steadiness, stability (stability also sensed body-wide, as in sway), and triggering.
2. The stance (grip and hold), provides the sight alignment, steadiness, stability, gun control as in recoil management. (Pointing at target is just a matter of orientation)
3. Trigger finger is a tool of the mind to optimally release the shot.
4. the mind takes information from the eyes and guides the physical things 2-3, (holding, triggering)
More briefly, you physically (1)"see" the sight, (2)"control" the gun, (3)"release" the shot with the (4)minds guidance.
Underneath these generalizations is a host of confusing and overlapping details.
-
Steve Swartz
Mike:
Your "breakdown" is an interesting way of disassembling the act of shooting; as in most sports it is critical to identify the fundamental building blocks of a complex skill in order to improve upon the macro process. Using a functional approach similar to yours, i would offer the following:
- You have three levels of process control or management: Conscious (chewing), subconscious or semi-autonomic (breathing), and autonomic (digestion).
- You have three acts to perform: aiming, aligning, and releasing.
- Aligning includes focusing on the front sight (physically and mentally) and keeping front sight cetnered in notch/horizontally lined up.
- Releasing includes the timing of the trigger activation and the trigger activation itself.
- Aiming includes physically pointing the sights and maintaining a "settle" while pointing.
O.K., so let's assign tasks to the levels of process control:
- Aligning: Requires a high degree of concentration and generally requires CONSCIOUS CONTROL.
- Aiming: Physical pointing requires conscious control, but once settled requires only "monitoring" attention.
- Releasing: can't be managed consciously. Trigger activation must be trained to the autonomic level. Only process left for release timing is semi-autonomic (subconscious).
The above approach can be understood better if we realize- up front- that the conscious mind (active, conscious control) can only do ONE THING AT A TIME! ("choose wisely")
Gotta run
Steve Swartz
Your "breakdown" is an interesting way of disassembling the act of shooting; as in most sports it is critical to identify the fundamental building blocks of a complex skill in order to improve upon the macro process. Using a functional approach similar to yours, i would offer the following:
- You have three levels of process control or management: Conscious (chewing), subconscious or semi-autonomic (breathing), and autonomic (digestion).
- You have three acts to perform: aiming, aligning, and releasing.
- Aligning includes focusing on the front sight (physically and mentally) and keeping front sight cetnered in notch/horizontally lined up.
- Releasing includes the timing of the trigger activation and the trigger activation itself.
- Aiming includes physically pointing the sights and maintaining a "settle" while pointing.
O.K., so let's assign tasks to the levels of process control:
- Aligning: Requires a high degree of concentration and generally requires CONSCIOUS CONTROL.
- Aiming: Physical pointing requires conscious control, but once settled requires only "monitoring" attention.
- Releasing: can't be managed consciously. Trigger activation must be trained to the autonomic level. Only process left for release timing is semi-autonomic (subconscious).
The above approach can be understood better if we realize- up front- that the conscious mind (active, conscious control) can only do ONE THING AT A TIME! ("choose wisely")
Gotta run
Steve Swartz