Millett VS Ultra dot
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Millett VS Ultra dot
I would like to know the differences of these two optic sights in terms of quality and or precision.Thanks.Ernie
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Fred Mannis
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I have a Millett on my M41 and have had no problems with it. Can't give you a comparison with UD since I have no first hand experience with UD sights. Their literature says that the UD has the least parallax of any red dot. If true, this is a real benefit. One of these days I will check the parallax on the Millett.
Fred
P.S. I don't know where this fits in the scheme of things - but I have mounted a red dot on my IZH M46 for shooting silhouettes. Not Olympic, but a lot of fun :-)
Fred
P.S. I don't know where this fits in the scheme of things - but I have mounted a red dot on my IZH M46 for shooting silhouettes. Not Olympic, but a lot of fun :-)
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Millett vs Ultra Dot
Hey Fred-Thanks for your kind opinion.I wrote a quick note to Brian Zins,and would you believe he answered me.He favors a 1" tube and Ultra dot.Has no opinion on Red dot.He also passed on some other good stuff on these optics,which a person, as a first time buyer, would find interesting.It is good to see that a person of his caliber,has time to share his experience with us regular folks :-) Regards Ernie
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mikeschroeder
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- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
Red Dots are a BIG DEAL in Bullseye. Looking on Bullseye-L would currently be a waste since the archives died last year. BUT Ultradots are considered the thing to buy. It seems that 90% of the shooters using a DOT have an Ultradot. They have a lifetime guarantee, wouldn't know personally, mine still works.
I agree with Brian Zins that the 1 inch tube is better. I think he has more of a shooting reason, but I would rather shop for GOOD 1 inch rings than 30mm rings.
Mike Schroeder
Wichita KS
Red Dots are a BIG DEAL in Bullseye. Looking on Bullseye-L would currently be a waste since the archives died last year. BUT Ultradots are considered the thing to buy. It seems that 90% of the shooters using a DOT have an Ultradot. They have a lifetime guarantee, wouldn't know personally, mine still works.
I agree with Brian Zins that the 1 inch tube is better. I think he has more of a shooting reason, but I would rather shop for GOOD 1 inch rings than 30mm rings.
Mike Schroeder
Wichita KS
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Nicole Hamilton
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The two brands you'll hear consistently identified as the highest quality are Ultradot and Aimpoint. Aimpoint makes red-dots for the US military, which should tell you something about them, including what to expect about the price, which is to say, they're more expensive than anything else. I've never owned an Ultradot, but I do have 3 Aimpoints, which I love.
The big things you pay for in a higher-priced red-dot are more rugged design and construction, a rounder, smaller dot (though no dot will look round if you have uncorrected astigmatism in your dominant eye), less parallax and features such as better battery life or less weight. All brands of red-dots claim zero parallax, meaning that as you shift your eyepoint relative to the sight, that the dot should stay in exactly the same spot on the target. But from looking at other shooter's dots, the claims for most brands are greatly exaggerated; what I like about the Aimpoints is that they really are close to zero parallax. (For more on how red-dots work, please see http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm.)
At the risk of starting another long thread on how all the best shooters all agree that a 1" tube is way better than a 30mm tube and that I'm just dead wrong (and maybe ugly, too), allow me to offer my own opinion, which is that it's a matter of personal taste. My first red-dot was a 1" but my other two are 30mm. Personally, I much prefer the 30mm.
The arguments (rationalizations?) you'll hear regarding the choice between 1" and 30mm go something like this:
When I went to buy my 30mm red-dot, I remember it took me close to an hour of arguing with the guy selling them. (This was Eldon McElhiney in Waltham, a fellow that might charitably be called a real piece of work, but unfortunately for me, the only one selling Aimpoints in MA.) He absolutely insisted I was making the biggest mistake of my life and would be back in his store the next week crying my eyes out for him to take it back and swap me the 1" version. No one who was any good or knew anything at all about BE shooting would ever use a 30mm, he insisted. I had to be a broken record, insisting over and over, thank you very much for your opinion, but I already have a 1", and this time, my mind is made up, I want the 30mm. Anyway, my point is that there's no shortage of people who'll insist there's just exactly one way -- their way -- of doing things but that doesn't mean it should be your way.
For me, the 30mm was the right choice. It was instantly better. I really love the larger field of view, especially for timed and rapid. When I bought my third red-dot, it didn't take even a moment's thought. Of course it was 30mm.
So my suggestion on the 1" versus 30mm choice is that what other people like shouldn't really be the deciding factor for you. It should be what you want, meaning it's worth taking a look at both to make your own choice.
The big things you pay for in a higher-priced red-dot are more rugged design and construction, a rounder, smaller dot (though no dot will look round if you have uncorrected astigmatism in your dominant eye), less parallax and features such as better battery life or less weight. All brands of red-dots claim zero parallax, meaning that as you shift your eyepoint relative to the sight, that the dot should stay in exactly the same spot on the target. But from looking at other shooter's dots, the claims for most brands are greatly exaggerated; what I like about the Aimpoints is that they really are close to zero parallax. (For more on how red-dots work, please see http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm.)
At the risk of starting another long thread on how all the best shooters all agree that a 1" tube is way better than a 30mm tube and that I'm just dead wrong (and maybe ugly, too), allow me to offer my own opinion, which is that it's a matter of personal taste. My first red-dot was a 1" but my other two are 30mm. Personally, I much prefer the 30mm.
The arguments (rationalizations?) you'll hear regarding the choice between 1" and 30mm go something like this:
- In favor of a 1" tube:
- It's smaller and lighter, so it affects the balance of the gun less.
The dot itself is lower, closer to the line of the bore.
The field of view is smaller, so you're less distracted by the rest of the target.
- The field of view is larger, so you get to see more of the surrounding target.
The really top 30mm tubes are small and light enough that the weight difference doesn't really matter.
The difference in dot position relative to the bore is too small to matter.
- It's smaller and lighter, so it affects the balance of the gun less.
When I went to buy my 30mm red-dot, I remember it took me close to an hour of arguing with the guy selling them. (This was Eldon McElhiney in Waltham, a fellow that might charitably be called a real piece of work, but unfortunately for me, the only one selling Aimpoints in MA.) He absolutely insisted I was making the biggest mistake of my life and would be back in his store the next week crying my eyes out for him to take it back and swap me the 1" version. No one who was any good or knew anything at all about BE shooting would ever use a 30mm, he insisted. I had to be a broken record, insisting over and over, thank you very much for your opinion, but I already have a 1", and this time, my mind is made up, I want the 30mm. Anyway, my point is that there's no shortage of people who'll insist there's just exactly one way -- their way -- of doing things but that doesn't mean it should be your way.
For me, the 30mm was the right choice. It was instantly better. I really love the larger field of view, especially for timed and rapid. When I bought my third red-dot, it didn't take even a moment's thought. Of course it was 30mm.
So my suggestion on the 1" versus 30mm choice is that what other people like shouldn't really be the deciding factor for you. It should be what you want, meaning it's worth taking a look at both to make your own choice.
Check the Parallax!!
Before buying any dot sight (or probably any other kind for that matter) for pistol shooting, check the parallax. If you can't check the one you will buy (mail order for example), at least check another one of a similar model.
You don't need a gun to do this. Set the sight on a table or counter top, so that you can see through it at some object of appropriate distance. Look carefully at the dot or cross hair, and see what it is pointing at. Then move your eye behind the sight, so that the aim point moves full width from left to right of the scope and top to bottom. Ideally, the aim point will remain pointing at the exact same spot on the object.
It is not possible to make a scope, whether dot or reticle, that is perfectly parallax free at all distances. Some rifle scopes have an adjustable objective, which allows them to be parallax free at the particular distance the objective is adjusted for; however I do not know of any pistol scope with this feature.
The best red dot sights are focused at infinity. If you move your eye from one edge to the other, the dot will move on the target by the same distance. With a 1" scope then, the most the dot can move on the target will be 1 inch, or only 1/2 inch in any direction from its position at scope center. With a 30mm scope of similar perfect construction, the movement would be larger. However, most shooters will keep the red dot somewhere near the middle of the scope. If the dot center never gets closer than half way to the scope edge (the dot edge will be closer), then the parallax will never exceed 1/4 inch on your target. If that matters to you, then you are using smaller targets than I do!
Note that this will be the same at any target distance. The parallax will be less than 1/4 inch at 25 yards, and will also be the same less than 1/4 inch at 50 yards. For that matter, it will also be less than 1/4 inch at 1000 yards, which will be completely invisible in an unmagnified dot sight.
However, not all dot sights are equal. I have a 30mm red dot sight which, as I moved my eye behind it at the target range, moved the apparent dot position completely from one side of the black bulls eye to the other. Even for me, that much motion can cost points! I don't use that sight any more. If you have not checked the parallax on your sight, you should - either you will have confidence that you have no problem at all, or you will know the dot needs to be near the center when you fire, or you will know you have been losing a lot more points than you thought just from a bad sight.
You don't need a gun to do this. Set the sight on a table or counter top, so that you can see through it at some object of appropriate distance. Look carefully at the dot or cross hair, and see what it is pointing at. Then move your eye behind the sight, so that the aim point moves full width from left to right of the scope and top to bottom. Ideally, the aim point will remain pointing at the exact same spot on the object.
It is not possible to make a scope, whether dot or reticle, that is perfectly parallax free at all distances. Some rifle scopes have an adjustable objective, which allows them to be parallax free at the particular distance the objective is adjusted for; however I do not know of any pistol scope with this feature.
The best red dot sights are focused at infinity. If you move your eye from one edge to the other, the dot will move on the target by the same distance. With a 1" scope then, the most the dot can move on the target will be 1 inch, or only 1/2 inch in any direction from its position at scope center. With a 30mm scope of similar perfect construction, the movement would be larger. However, most shooters will keep the red dot somewhere near the middle of the scope. If the dot center never gets closer than half way to the scope edge (the dot edge will be closer), then the parallax will never exceed 1/4 inch on your target. If that matters to you, then you are using smaller targets than I do!
Note that this will be the same at any target distance. The parallax will be less than 1/4 inch at 25 yards, and will also be the same less than 1/4 inch at 50 yards. For that matter, it will also be less than 1/4 inch at 1000 yards, which will be completely invisible in an unmagnified dot sight.
However, not all dot sights are equal. I have a 30mm red dot sight which, as I moved my eye behind it at the target range, moved the apparent dot position completely from one side of the black bulls eye to the other. Even for me, that much motion can cost points! I don't use that sight any more. If you have not checked the parallax on your sight, you should - either you will have confidence that you have no problem at all, or you will know the dot needs to be near the center when you fire, or you will know you have been losing a lot more points than you thought just from a bad sight.
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Dot sights
Thanks to all for helpful advice on that question about Dot sights.Ernie
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi againNicole Hamilton wrote: The big things you pay for in a higher-priced red-dot are more rugged design and construction, a rounder, smaller dot (though no dot will look round if you have uncorrected astigmatism in your dominant eye), less parallax and features such as better battery life or less weight.
One thing that no one mentioned, and kept me from buying a dot for a while was that I have astigmatism. If you look at the dot and it's not round turn the sight in your hands, if the dot looks the same any way it's turned, then you have astigmatism. If the (not a nice round dot) shape turns with the tube, then it's the DOT that's bad. I was looking in the DOT Sights and saw a jagged blob, not at all round. I thought I was just looking at cheapo bad DOTs... NOPE, I have astigmatism, always have. I turned the dot through 360 degrees and the Upper Right point stayed upper right......
Hope this helps.
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Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
I wonder if the extra weight of the scope and mount will significantly help with management of recoil? I have a "standard" LP10 and it kicks really hard. Been thinking of going to a reduced powder charge or a lighter pellet.
On a different thought, being pretty new to shooting, I have frequently wondered why it is so common to convert guns into something else. Some strive to turn their .22's (through Marvel conversions) into .45's or air pistols into .45's. If the goal is to become better at shooting a .45, why not shoot a .45? I shoot International and BE, dots and open sights. AP and FP have clearly made me more proficient in BE, but not because these disciplines simulate BE. They simply demand a high skill level and strict technique that make me a better shooter.
I wonder if there is a Marvel conversion for my LP10. I bet it would be really accurate firing .22's at 50 yds. Test target for pellets is one hole. Will have to just figure out how to install a magazine. Any help would be appreciated.
Dennis Lindenbaum
On a different thought, being pretty new to shooting, I have frequently wondered why it is so common to convert guns into something else. Some strive to turn their .22's (through Marvel conversions) into .45's or air pistols into .45's. If the goal is to become better at shooting a .45, why not shoot a .45? I shoot International and BE, dots and open sights. AP and FP have clearly made me more proficient in BE, but not because these disciplines simulate BE. They simply demand a high skill level and strict technique that make me a better shooter.
I wonder if there is a Marvel conversion for my LP10. I bet it would be really accurate firing .22's at 50 yds. Test target for pellets is one hole. Will have to just figure out how to install a magazine. Any help would be appreciated.
Dennis Lindenbaum
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Optic Sights
Thanks to all for your kind advice on these types of devices.ALL of my target pistols are ISSF and I would never put an optic sight on these pistols. I shoot ONLY ISSF and have no interests in NRA shooting at all.I felt at 65yrs old,with poor eyesight,a Marvel conversion,on a hardball frame,Plus an optice device -would enable me to PRACTICE ONLY with a clear sight picture again.Thanks.Ernie.
Last edited by Ernie Rodriguez on Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Converting Guns
Well, for one thing it's cheaper to shoot a .22On a different thought, being pretty new to shooting, I have frequently wondered why it is so common to convert guns into something else. Some strive to turn their .22's (through Marvel conversions) into .45's or air pistols into .45's. If the goal is to become better at shooting a .45, why not shoot a .45?
The other common reason is to shoot the same gun in a 3-gun NRA match. i.e., a 1911 frame under a .22 conversion for the .22 match and a 1911 (usually in .45, occasionally in .38) for the center fire match, and a 1911 in .45 for the .45 match.
Re converting an air pistol into a .45, it is unpleasant, unsafe, and probably illegal to shoot a .45 in your basement. Not so an LP-5 with a .45 grip.