The secret to duelling
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The secret to duelling
In centerfire precision I can shot between 275/285, but when it comes to duelling I seem to screw up and only get between 210/230 so what am I doing so wrong. I know full well that my gun can do it, so that only leaves me. I'm using a Unique DES .32U.
How do you fair regards the timing ? Do you shoot immediately once on aim or do you use up the three seconds ?
When you come up on aim are the sights correctly aligned or do you need to adjust the point of aim ?
I only do the event with air in the UK so there are major differences but the timings etc are the same. I also do a bit of rapid fire and that helped me with the quick sight acquisition as I sometimes practice releasing one shot in a second.
I guess another point is are you better or worse at the start of end of the series or is it consistent across the series ?
Rob.
When you come up on aim are the sights correctly aligned or do you need to adjust the point of aim ?
I only do the event with air in the UK so there are major differences but the timings etc are the same. I also do a bit of rapid fire and that helped me with the quick sight acquisition as I sometimes practice releasing one shot in a second.
I guess another point is are you better or worse at the start of end of the series or is it consistent across the series ?
Rob.
For me the "secret" to duelling is to be able to squeeze the trigger; it is so easy to run out of time for various reasons that you may end up rushing the shot and jerking the trigger. 3 seconds is plenty of time to get off one shot but your mechanics have to be right. You need to be able to lift the gun smoothly but swiftly to the target in one to one and a quarter seconds. When you get to the aiming area your sights need to be pretty closely aligned so that you don't waste any precious tenths making big sight corrections. (I was taught to check my sight alignment (without moving my head) when in the ready position, with the front sight well above the rear sight.) As soon as you acquire the front sight you need to start putting pressure on the trigger to break the shot cleanly. Don't forget follow-through. I like to count to myself as soon as the target starts to turn, one-thousand one, etc. in order to pace myself. By one-thousand two, you'd better be working earnestly to break the shot. It takes lots of practice to get it all down, and dry-fire practice is especially valuable here.
Lee
Lee
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Patrick Haynes
Duello Thoughts
I think Lee has alot of good stuff there.
I love duello whether it is in Sport Pistol or Centrefire. It has a robotic feel too it which all but eliminates over-thinking and hesitation. Just raise and shot. Repeat 29 times. It's great.
Make sure your natural point of aim is perfect. When you raise, you can't deviate right or left (have someone to the side watch you). You also cannot be overtravelling the target. Raise to the point, stop and deliver.
Some people favour a trigger squeeze which is progressive through the raise and breaks when they settle in the centre. Other take up the slack while at the 45 and then nudge it over once settled in. Me, I have a single stage Walther GSP. I raise quickly, settle fast and deliver a single smooth pull.
For raise styles, you can raise quick (snap), settle and shoot. You can also start your riase fast, and slow at about the 2/3 raise mark and drift to the centre, shoot. Others like a steady, slow raise and deliver a passing shot. I prefer the snap, as I get more time to aim.
Just remember: don't shoot faster than you can. Just because you can raise quick, doesn't mean that you can pop off a shot. Live control. If you raise fast, take the time to settle, aim and squeeze. One shot in 3 seconds is an eternity: ask the rapid fire guys who are squeezing out 5 shots in 4 seconds at 5 different targets. make sure your raise is controlled and the stop is smooth. Deviations to the right or left, or a quirky stop means you're raising faster than your degree of control. Back it off, practice and once you've stabilised, try shooting faster IF you still feel rushed.
Lastly, what is your sight picture like? Have you gone directly from shooting precision on a slowfire target to shooting rapid on the rapid target? Have you ever decided to shoot slow on a rapid target, imprinting the correct sight picture in your mind? Perform the raise in a controlled manner, stop exactly in the same position and deliver a deliberate controlled shot in a total of 8-12 seconds. Learn the form and then speed it up. Remember the old adage: First you get good, then you get fast.
Gotta run. The day job calls.
Patrick Haynes
www.targetshooting.ca
I love duello whether it is in Sport Pistol or Centrefire. It has a robotic feel too it which all but eliminates over-thinking and hesitation. Just raise and shot. Repeat 29 times. It's great.
Make sure your natural point of aim is perfect. When you raise, you can't deviate right or left (have someone to the side watch you). You also cannot be overtravelling the target. Raise to the point, stop and deliver.
Some people favour a trigger squeeze which is progressive through the raise and breaks when they settle in the centre. Other take up the slack while at the 45 and then nudge it over once settled in. Me, I have a single stage Walther GSP. I raise quickly, settle fast and deliver a single smooth pull.
For raise styles, you can raise quick (snap), settle and shoot. You can also start your riase fast, and slow at about the 2/3 raise mark and drift to the centre, shoot. Others like a steady, slow raise and deliver a passing shot. I prefer the snap, as I get more time to aim.
Just remember: don't shoot faster than you can. Just because you can raise quick, doesn't mean that you can pop off a shot. Live control. If you raise fast, take the time to settle, aim and squeeze. One shot in 3 seconds is an eternity: ask the rapid fire guys who are squeezing out 5 shots in 4 seconds at 5 different targets. make sure your raise is controlled and the stop is smooth. Deviations to the right or left, or a quirky stop means you're raising faster than your degree of control. Back it off, practice and once you've stabilised, try shooting faster IF you still feel rushed.
Lastly, what is your sight picture like? Have you gone directly from shooting precision on a slowfire target to shooting rapid on the rapid target? Have you ever decided to shoot slow on a rapid target, imprinting the correct sight picture in your mind? Perform the raise in a controlled manner, stop exactly in the same position and deliver a deliberate controlled shot in a total of 8-12 seconds. Learn the form and then speed it up. Remember the old adage: First you get good, then you get fast.
Gotta run. The day job calls.
Patrick Haynes
www.targetshooting.ca
I have the opposite problem, but that's a story for another day.
Try counting "one and two and" then shoot just before you would say three. To help get your timing right count while someone else is shooting so you can get into the rhythm. After a while (only 4-5 shoots) it becomes a rhythm and you don't even know you are counting.
When I was taught this technique at a coaching session I found that instead of worrying the target is about to turn and hurrying a shot, you know when it is going to turn. If your initial point of aim when you put the gun up is not in the 10 ring, you still have time to adjust.
Try counting "one and two and" then shoot just before you would say three. To help get your timing right count while someone else is shooting so you can get into the rhythm. After a while (only 4-5 shoots) it becomes a rhythm and you don't even know you are counting.
When I was taught this technique at a coaching session I found that instead of worrying the target is about to turn and hurrying a shot, you know when it is going to turn. If your initial point of aim when you put the gun up is not in the 10 ring, you still have time to adjust.
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Jim Cruise
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:07 pm
- Location: Tennant Creek, NT, Australia
In the 1 minute load time ensure that your stance and position in relation to the target allows you to lift in a straight line centrally to the target (aiming area is your choice). Practice or test the lift in this time, doing the lift in the time you will use for live fire. Once happy with the stance/position lift and take aim with correct sight alignment - 'lock' the wrist and elbow lowering the arm from the shoulder without moving the head. Take up the first stage of the trigger in the ready position.
On appearance of the target lift the pistol like lobbing a ball underarm e.g. initially fast then slowing down close to the target. Then drift into your aiming area steering the aligned sights; stop and squeeze the trigger. Have a reasonably long follow through (allow the target to turn away), settling back into the aiming area, then re-align the sights, lock the wrist etc and lower into the ready position to await the next appearance of the target.
Do not count, as this is unreliable if things go ever so slightly wrong, rely on your best senses (eyes) for either movement of the target or change in lights. Put your concentration on sights and trigger, not counting time.
Also avoid looking at your sights in the ready position as the angle from there to arm raised produces a totally different sight alignment. Remember that you should re-align your sights after each shot is fired as a part of good follow through - it will help you prepare for the next shot. Try and develop your inner feeling of timing around a breathing sequence e.g. inhale on lift, natural respiratory pause & fire, lower into ready position exhaling, pause, as target turns lift and inhale etc.
Train on a static target to begin with until you develop confidence in the technique (don't concern yourself with timing for a while) and get reasonable groups, then add in the timing and turning targets.
Hope this helps. If you need more explanation contact me.
On appearance of the target lift the pistol like lobbing a ball underarm e.g. initially fast then slowing down close to the target. Then drift into your aiming area steering the aligned sights; stop and squeeze the trigger. Have a reasonably long follow through (allow the target to turn away), settling back into the aiming area, then re-align the sights, lock the wrist etc and lower into the ready position to await the next appearance of the target.
Do not count, as this is unreliable if things go ever so slightly wrong, rely on your best senses (eyes) for either movement of the target or change in lights. Put your concentration on sights and trigger, not counting time.
Also avoid looking at your sights in the ready position as the angle from there to arm raised produces a totally different sight alignment. Remember that you should re-align your sights after each shot is fired as a part of good follow through - it will help you prepare for the next shot. Try and develop your inner feeling of timing around a breathing sequence e.g. inhale on lift, natural respiratory pause & fire, lower into ready position exhaling, pause, as target turns lift and inhale etc.
Train on a static target to begin with until you develop confidence in the technique (don't concern yourself with timing for a while) and get reasonable groups, then add in the timing and turning targets.
Hope this helps. If you need more explanation contact me.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I really don't like these suggestions of counting to give you the timing.
You will qickly get to know when the targets are going to turn just by shooting more. While you are training don't worry overmuch if you get the occasional late shot. They are the ones that really teach you the timing.
The method of duelling I used was to take up the first stage (approximately 1000g) of my FAS trigger at the ready position. When the targets faced I smoothly raised the pistol to my aiming area in 2.25 to 2.5 seconds, picking up the sights on the way by eye movement only, and released the last bit of the trigger weight in about half a second.
You will qickly get to know when the targets are going to turn just by shooting more. While you are training don't worry overmuch if you get the occasional late shot. They are the ones that really teach you the timing.
The method of duelling I used was to take up the first stage (approximately 1000g) of my FAS trigger at the ready position. When the targets faced I smoothly raised the pistol to my aiming area in 2.25 to 2.5 seconds, picking up the sights on the way by eye movement only, and released the last bit of the trigger weight in about half a second.
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Steve Swartz
I have a powerpoint presentation with an aiming bull and green light/red light set up with proper timings for dry fire practice if you want. Email me at leslieswartz@charter.net if you want a copy.
Dry fire drills will help you get comfortable with the timing and, better yet, give you immediate feedback on your trigger release and follow through.
I think the size of the bull is scaled to be used at 15 feet or thereabouts; you can just resize the object for different distances.
Steve Swartz
Dry fire drills will help you get comfortable with the timing and, better yet, give you immediate feedback on your trigger release and follow through.
I think the size of the bull is scaled to be used at 15 feet or thereabouts; you can just resize the object for different distances.
Steve Swartz
Presumably dependant on your screen size ?Steve Swartz wrote:I have a powerpoint presentation with an aiming bull and green light/red light set up with proper timings for dry fire practice if you want. Email me at leslieswartz@charter.net if you want a copy.
Dry fire drills will help you get comfortable with the timing and, better yet, give you immediate feedback on your trigger release and follow through.
I think the size of the bull is scaled to be used at 15 feet or thereabouts; you can just resize the object for different distances.
Steve Swartz
Rob.
I find that it is all in the breathing. From attention, I used to do two breaths and then half in before shot, I now breathe out as I raise the pistol. This helps with the raise and feels more natural for me.
The first shot of sequence is essential. A stopwatch to time the minute helps with preparation. I like to do a raise before the attention and bring the “locked” wrist down to the ready position – you can not do a raise after the “attention” command!
Some adaptation is needed is case range staff are clueless.
A good grip and trigger position is essential. The precision stage will not necessarily show up incorrectly fitting grips nor trigger position.
Training with air pistols is possible providing the trigger weights are representative. I use a heavy set of springs in a spare 162EI with short barrel and short cylinder plus loads of weights in the middle for simulating the correct balance. This is about as good as it gets as the 5 shot LP5 is a dog of a trigger. No air pistol will adequately simulate recoil or genuine centre fire training. Some have deluded themselves that air pistols can simulate the real event only to come a bit unstuck but essentially, the core skills can be trained.
Some good articles in the ISSF journal regarding “locking” the wrist and breathing patterns.
The PowerPoint presentation is an excellent idea. I used this for years until I was given several videos of turning and electronic targets. Some tips
1. make sure the laptop/monitor is at correct height so raise is correct.
2. add sound if you can unless you are using the “electronic lights” version!
3. add sound with and without others shooting so you don’t get spooked with others firing patterns. I have one clip with me shooting so it helps early season.
4. Use the rear sight to gauge with width of the real targets and recreate the same view when setup in front of the laptop. The foresight is too small but the rear sight width equates to a whole target frame plus X for example. That way, the image size is correct. I also measure from the ground to my on-aim distance for air, free and centre fire for dry training against aiming marks.
5. make sure the pistol is unloaded (I could not resist that one!)
The first shot of sequence is essential. A stopwatch to time the minute helps with preparation. I like to do a raise before the attention and bring the “locked” wrist down to the ready position – you can not do a raise after the “attention” command!
Some adaptation is needed is case range staff are clueless.
A good grip and trigger position is essential. The precision stage will not necessarily show up incorrectly fitting grips nor trigger position.
Training with air pistols is possible providing the trigger weights are representative. I use a heavy set of springs in a spare 162EI with short barrel and short cylinder plus loads of weights in the middle for simulating the correct balance. This is about as good as it gets as the 5 shot LP5 is a dog of a trigger. No air pistol will adequately simulate recoil or genuine centre fire training. Some have deluded themselves that air pistols can simulate the real event only to come a bit unstuck but essentially, the core skills can be trained.
Some good articles in the ISSF journal regarding “locking” the wrist and breathing patterns.
The PowerPoint presentation is an excellent idea. I used this for years until I was given several videos of turning and electronic targets. Some tips
1. make sure the laptop/monitor is at correct height so raise is correct.
2. add sound if you can unless you are using the “electronic lights” version!
3. add sound with and without others shooting so you don’t get spooked with others firing patterns. I have one clip with me shooting so it helps early season.
4. Use the rear sight to gauge with width of the real targets and recreate the same view when setup in front of the laptop. The foresight is too small but the rear sight width equates to a whole target frame plus X for example. That way, the image size is correct. I also measure from the ground to my on-aim distance for air, free and centre fire for dry training against aiming marks.
5. make sure the pistol is unloaded (I could not resist that one!)
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Steve Swartz
Email went out today with ppt file. Try again if you didn't receive it.
As previous posters mentioned, be deliberate in placing the monitor at the right distance/height to present the same visual image as you would have at the range.
And of course, always practice "Safe Chamber" when training at home!
Steve Swartz
As previous posters mentioned, be deliberate in placing the monitor at the right distance/height to present the same visual image as you would have at the range.
And of course, always practice "Safe Chamber" when training at home!
Steve Swartz
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Pradeep5
aiming point
Where is your aiming point when you shoot duel
Do you aim in the middle of the target or under the target ?
Do you aim in the middle of the target or under the target ?
Re: aiming point
I think most people centre aim - I certainly do.2mark5 wrote:Where is your aiming point when you shoot duel
Do you aim in the middle of the target or under the target ?
Rob.