Hello,
I'm looking for some options for my Prone position in HP... I've had pretty good results w/ squaring up behind the gun and loading from the shoulder while practicing 50' smallbore, so I thought I might try that w/ my AR for 600...
Guess what I'm looking at is this: I've been shown a prone position that is fairly 'standard' in the sport I shoot; left side in a straight line, close to inline w/ the target, left elbow cranked in so it's almost directly under the gun and the flat on the back of the elbow is flat on the mat, right knee drawn up a bunch to roll the shooter over to their left side and take pressure off the diaphragm. For me, this position is absolute torture; I have very wide shoulders, so by the time I get my shoulders twisted enough to get my left elbow even close to under the gun, my right shoulder is *way* back, and there is no way even I at 6'5" can reach up and load from the shoulder, not to mention my right elbow is loose as a goose, w/ no solid anchor on the mat. After an all day 60rd Prone match I usually feel like I've been literally beaten w/ my gun. Any questions about alternative positions to fellow shooters are usually met w/ "you'll get used to it over time".
Squaring up and loading from the shoulder is far far more comfortable, and seems to work much better, at least for as long as I can stand to hold the gun (that part of time/conditioning I do agree with) w/o breaking position. But to do so I end up in more of what other shooters seem to call a 'tripod' position... up higher, w/ weight about 60/40 split btwn left and right elbows, and very solid traction on both elbows, but not rolled over to one side to relieve pressure from the chest (don't seem to notice a detriment there) nor is my left arm anywhere near under the gun. If anything, the biggest detriment seems to be that I have to really choke up my hand position on the fore end a *lot*.
Given a choice btwn the two situations above, what would you recommend? Continue fighting w/ the 'traditional' position that everybody around me recommends, or the squared-up-load-from-the-shoulder position that feels far more natural and comfortable, even if it is not 'normal'?
Thanks,
Monte
Loading from the shoulder in Prone...
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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Guest
Firstly I don't think your left elbow should be under the rifle. This will put too much strain on the shoulder, and move the centre of balance the wrong way. This was once done, but with a much wider position, not straight on as you said you were.
Try moving the elbow so that it is 2-3" left of the rifle.
Also the right shoulder should not ideally be pushed back. This can lead to strain and inconstant pressure on the butt. The shoulders should both be straight to the spine, this allows a much more relaxed body.
Remember that at 6' 5" you may not fit into the "standard " category. Height can be an advantage; with long arms your supoporting hand can be well forwards along the stock.
Wide shoulders should not be too great a problem (I doubt your sling will ever touch the rifle!). If you are using a free rifle off set the butt so that it is in comfy place between neck and shoulder, and the cheekpiece by your face. What rifle do you use, and what adjustment is available?
As for loading, what precisely do you mean by "squaring up and loading from the shoulder"? Are you trying to load with your elbow still on the ground? If the butt is properly in your shoulder, you should be able to load by raising the elbow to give more reach without disturbing the butt.
Above all a good prone position should be balanced and comfortable. You can't expect brilliant scores if your mind is being distarcted by a strained joint.
Hope this helps
Tim S
Exeter UK
Try moving the elbow so that it is 2-3" left of the rifle.
Also the right shoulder should not ideally be pushed back. This can lead to strain and inconstant pressure on the butt. The shoulders should both be straight to the spine, this allows a much more relaxed body.
Remember that at 6' 5" you may not fit into the "standard " category. Height can be an advantage; with long arms your supoporting hand can be well forwards along the stock.
Wide shoulders should not be too great a problem (I doubt your sling will ever touch the rifle!). If you are using a free rifle off set the butt so that it is in comfy place between neck and shoulder, and the cheekpiece by your face. What rifle do you use, and what adjustment is available?
As for loading, what precisely do you mean by "squaring up and loading from the shoulder"? Are you trying to load with your elbow still on the ground? If the butt is properly in your shoulder, you should be able to load by raising the elbow to give more reach without disturbing the butt.
Above all a good prone position should be balanced and comfortable. You can't expect brilliant scores if your mind is being distarcted by a strained joint.
Hope this helps
Tim S
Exeter UK
Tim,
Thanks for the response. The bit about the wide shoulders comes into play in two areas, near as I can tell. One, if I try to fit into the mould of what others are doing, w/ the left side either inline (parallel) w/ the bore or very close to it, the only way to do that with very wide shoulders it seems is to push the right shoulder back... a lot, and it starts becoming rather uncomfortable. Two, if I set up at an angle to the gun, w/ the wide shoulders it seems like I come 'around' the stock and right up into the rear sight in fairly short order.
The guns I'm shooting are an AR Service Rifle, and then an NRA Prone gun. The SR has basically no adjustments, other than maybe stuffing some padding inside the coat as a spacer for LOP. The Prone gun is closer to a Free Rifle, but w/ no Schutzen or hook buttplate allowed, and probably fewer fine-tune adjustments, not out of rules but out of general design.
When I say 'square up behind the gun' I mean almost to where my *right* side is straight behind the gun, left leg not drawn up but a little out to the side, and my shoulders parallel w/ the firing line, perpendicular to the line of sight to the target. In this position both elbows are firmly on the shooting mat, and my arms are generally long enough that I can load in place, w/o moving my right elbow off the mat at all (other than my smallbore rifle which has no feed ramps so loading is a little more involved than toss a round in and push it forward w/ the bolt).
Thanks,
Monte
Thanks for the response. The bit about the wide shoulders comes into play in two areas, near as I can tell. One, if I try to fit into the mould of what others are doing, w/ the left side either inline (parallel) w/ the bore or very close to it, the only way to do that with very wide shoulders it seems is to push the right shoulder back... a lot, and it starts becoming rather uncomfortable. Two, if I set up at an angle to the gun, w/ the wide shoulders it seems like I come 'around' the stock and right up into the rear sight in fairly short order.
The guns I'm shooting are an AR Service Rifle, and then an NRA Prone gun. The SR has basically no adjustments, other than maybe stuffing some padding inside the coat as a spacer for LOP. The Prone gun is closer to a Free Rifle, but w/ no Schutzen or hook buttplate allowed, and probably fewer fine-tune adjustments, not out of rules but out of general design.
When I say 'square up behind the gun' I mean almost to where my *right* side is straight behind the gun, left leg not drawn up but a little out to the side, and my shoulders parallel w/ the firing line, perpendicular to the line of sight to the target. In this position both elbows are firmly on the shooting mat, and my arms are generally long enough that I can load in place, w/o moving my right elbow off the mat at all (other than my smallbore rifle which has no feed ramps so loading is a little more involved than toss a round in and push it forward w/ the bolt).
Thanks,
Monte
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Guest
Even at 6' 5" lying absolutely staright to the target may not be best.
Also why should you need to push the right shoulder back when lying straight, or almost so? having the right shoulder pushed back would suggest either; too great a distance between handstop (or contact point for the supporting hand with an M16) and the butt. A shallow body angle requires LESS distance between these points, as the right shoulder is further forwards.
A tensed shoulder is not good, I have found that in this situation the tension is never consistent; and inconsistent at the worst moment. Shoulders that are at right angles to the spine are much more relaxed, and absorb recoil much more consistently.
Try moving your elbow away from the rifle slightly; if the sling is correctly set this will bear the weight of the rifle and place less strain upon the joint. Try turning your elbow in towards your body while reading this, it hurts; keeping the arm and elbow joint straight to the side does not.
A shallow body angle is good; idealy though you should be able to trace a straight line along the left leg and arm. There are some people that shoot well bent like a banana; however this is usually the result of lying at a much greater angle and then tucking the legs back in to stay on the mat. Most people shoot with the body un-bent though.
As for loading you should be able to raise the right elbow from the ground to give more length to the arm; don't move the shoulder as this can shift the butt slightly, only move the elbow.
That's all I can think of for the mo. You might consider getting a book on target shooting, one with pictures showing the varaiations.
Tim S
Exeter UK
Also why should you need to push the right shoulder back when lying straight, or almost so? having the right shoulder pushed back would suggest either; too great a distance between handstop (or contact point for the supporting hand with an M16) and the butt. A shallow body angle requires LESS distance between these points, as the right shoulder is further forwards.
A tensed shoulder is not good, I have found that in this situation the tension is never consistent; and inconsistent at the worst moment. Shoulders that are at right angles to the spine are much more relaxed, and absorb recoil much more consistently.
Try moving your elbow away from the rifle slightly; if the sling is correctly set this will bear the weight of the rifle and place less strain upon the joint. Try turning your elbow in towards your body while reading this, it hurts; keeping the arm and elbow joint straight to the side does not.
A shallow body angle is good; idealy though you should be able to trace a straight line along the left leg and arm. There are some people that shoot well bent like a banana; however this is usually the result of lying at a much greater angle and then tucking the legs back in to stay on the mat. Most people shoot with the body un-bent though.
As for loading you should be able to raise the right elbow from the ground to give more length to the arm; don't move the shoulder as this can shift the butt slightly, only move the elbow.
That's all I can think of for the mo. You might consider getting a book on target shooting, one with pictures showing the varaiations.
Tim S
Exeter UK
The only book I have seen that goes into detail on the subject is Ways Of The Rifle ($55 - Pilkington). It shows the changes and effects when you go from an angled position to a squared position. It's written for Int'l 3P smallbore and AR, but most of the info could apply to HP as well with some alteration.Anonymous wrote:(SNIP) You might consider getting a book on target shooting, one with pictures showing the varaiations.
Tim S
Exeter UK
G. David Tubb also has books on NRA HP-style shooting, but I haven't personally looked through them.
Jay V
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Jose Rossy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:17 am
- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
Monte, lengthen your sling and bring your left hand back as far as you can on the handguards. It's the only way to get a non-adjustable rifle like an AR15 to move fwd in relation to you. That allows your right shoulder to move fwd as well and it makes loading from the shoulder MUCH easier.
The more square you can get behind the rifle, the better your prone position will be. David Tubb hammers on that concept in both of his books. I tend to listen to what he says.
The more square you can get behind the rifle, the better your prone position will be. David Tubb hammers on that concept in both of his books. I tend to listen to what he says.
I was playing w/ that this spring some; may have to get some spray adhesive to get my hand to stay put on the fore end unless I want to start adding the variable of squeezing the stock to things. Right now my wrist is still messed up and slinging up is pretty questionable for the moment.Jose Rossy wrote:Monte, lengthen your sling and bring your left hand back as far as you can on the handguards. It's the only way to get a non-adjustable rifle like an AR15 to move fwd in relation to you. That allows your right shoulder to move fwd as well and it makes loading from the shoulder MUCH easier.
Yeah, I do too... up until the point that it becomes (painfully, literally painfully) obvious that his body and mine are not from the same mould and there are some significant dimensional differences. Given the choice btwn being a 'Tubb clone' like 99% of HP shooters and being absolutely miserable in position, or exploring other options (not necessarily ignoring the ideas that he puts forth, just accepting that they don't seem to work for me as-is)... part of the peril of being outside the 'norm' as far as body dimensions/geometry I guess. I'm getting to where I value being at least moderately comfortable over looking like everybody else on the line. At least then I'm not inclined to rush the shot and just pull the damn trigger so I can break position for some sort of relief from the pain... I'm pretty sure you've seen the same books I have, Jose... how many positions in 'Ways of the Rifle' look anything like what Tubbs uses in 'The Rifle Shooter'? Not very many, if any, but those shooters are national and world level champions in a sport that if anything is *more* demanding in terms of sheer accuracy in order to reach those levels. Not saying he's wrong, they're right, or anything like that, just that it would appear that there is more than one way to do things... which is all I'm looking for here, some alternatives.The more square you can get behind the rifle, the better your prone position will be. David Tubb hammers on that concept in both of his books. I tend to listen to what he says.
YMMV,
Monte
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Ross Mason
Getting into Prone
If I may offer an idea that I now regularly use when fitting a newbie to the sling after a few weeks on the block. I have also found it very useful when checking a position of a "veteran". That is, someone who has developed...shall we say...interesting variations of a position that they yused to have and have found no longer does the job too well. In other words, a technique to check the basic position.
I reckon that there is a natural position for everyone to hold a rifle in the prone position. My way of finding it is thus:
Move the handstop forward further than you would be able to touch it. Fit the sling to the shoulder but not to the rifle. Lie down and hold the rifle in the postion that feels the most comfortable for you. Noting the following: Keep the left forearm and upper arm vertical. By that I mean, if someone was looking down on it they would see a straight line between wrist, elbow and shoulder. The elbow is not bent under the rifle nor bent outwards. that way the weight of the rifle is being supported by bone rather than gristle and muscle as when it is out of line. The butt plate fits snugly into the shoulder. Do not worry about if the the rifle is pointing up or down too far from the target. The idea is to find where the most important parts, the front hand and the shoulder, want to touch the rifle. You will also find the left arm develops a suitable triangle all by itself. Obviously the left hand has to grip the foreend when no sling is used. All we are doing is sorting out the "right" angles for you.
I bet a dime to a dollar that this "natural" position will be quite angled to the body.
Once sorted, get someone to move the handstop to the front hand. Offer up the sling to the handstop and adjust it so that the "natural" position is kept as close as possible. Now move the butt plate up or down to get the rifle horizontal as close a possible. Adjust the cheek piece to suit.
Loading. Most load at the shoulder. By suitable downward pressure by the right knee it is possible to take the weight off the right elbow. If the weight is JUST taken off, the rest of the body stays right where it is. The right arm can now move forward and around and load the rifle quite easily. A little bit of practice will ensure you can do this by feel. If the breech is too far away, consider shortening the butt length. Personally I don't consider there is any hard and fast rule about butt length. Everything is a compromise and if it means easier loading, thus keeping position better, then shorten it. It may mean that the right hand becomes a little crunched up but if the thumb can touch your nose in the shooting position, I think you are pretty close.
Arm length and shoulder width are the compromises of "book butt length" and I suggest the "natural" position adjusts to compensate for these two major variations.
Regards
Ross Mason
I reckon that there is a natural position for everyone to hold a rifle in the prone position. My way of finding it is thus:
Move the handstop forward further than you would be able to touch it. Fit the sling to the shoulder but not to the rifle. Lie down and hold the rifle in the postion that feels the most comfortable for you. Noting the following: Keep the left forearm and upper arm vertical. By that I mean, if someone was looking down on it they would see a straight line between wrist, elbow and shoulder. The elbow is not bent under the rifle nor bent outwards. that way the weight of the rifle is being supported by bone rather than gristle and muscle as when it is out of line. The butt plate fits snugly into the shoulder. Do not worry about if the the rifle is pointing up or down too far from the target. The idea is to find where the most important parts, the front hand and the shoulder, want to touch the rifle. You will also find the left arm develops a suitable triangle all by itself. Obviously the left hand has to grip the foreend when no sling is used. All we are doing is sorting out the "right" angles for you.
I bet a dime to a dollar that this "natural" position will be quite angled to the body.
Once sorted, get someone to move the handstop to the front hand. Offer up the sling to the handstop and adjust it so that the "natural" position is kept as close as possible. Now move the butt plate up or down to get the rifle horizontal as close a possible. Adjust the cheek piece to suit.
Loading. Most load at the shoulder. By suitable downward pressure by the right knee it is possible to take the weight off the right elbow. If the weight is JUST taken off, the rest of the body stays right where it is. The right arm can now move forward and around and load the rifle quite easily. A little bit of practice will ensure you can do this by feel. If the breech is too far away, consider shortening the butt length. Personally I don't consider there is any hard and fast rule about butt length. Everything is a compromise and if it means easier loading, thus keeping position better, then shorten it. It may mean that the right hand becomes a little crunched up but if the thumb can touch your nose in the shooting position, I think you are pretty close.
Arm length and shoulder width are the compromises of "book butt length" and I suggest the "natural" position adjusts to compensate for these two major variations.
Regards
Ross Mason