4H program am I nuts

[cmj]

Now that I have your attention would like your opinion. The 4H shooting program just started up for the summer, summer only here. the local leader, instructor is the main person for certifying 4H shooting in the state. He has some Crossman 2000, which he won't use, and some Daisy 853s,his preference and some Daisy Mentors for the small people to use. The only competitions are the local fairs. His idea of instruction is a safety talk, no problem but sometimes a little long winded. Kids "may" get to shoot about 15 to 20 shots on a good day. and generally requires one shooter and one kid to coach per shooter, who also maybe is big enough to pump the gun for the kid not big enough to pump it. Thats also what the mentors are for not much to pump and not much accuracy. His idea is also that the kids will win the competitions in the standing position and therefore must learn that first then the Prone and Kneeling position. Says thats what they told him at the National meeting???????
Tonight after shooting two 5 bull targets standing he decided that they needed to also shoot 5 kneeling and 5 prone.
My daughter went to get her sling for the kneeling position and he immediately told her NO SLINGS were going to be allowed at the local fair and they weren't going to practice with them, but he did let her go ahead and use it tonight, but she was not going to use it at the fair. Also said that it would not be fair to everyone as not everyone had a sling. . No provision on Daisy Mentor for a sling, but he has several that came with the 853s. He also has said he will not allow the other clubs that come to the fair to use a sling, but one club always shows up with ill fitting shooting coats, and they will be alright as they don't fit and probably do more harm than good. I am thinking about pulling my daughter out of 4H completley as the current situation is not likely to change and 4H shooting only exist for a couple months a year around here. Eastern Washington.
My daughter is 11 and is capable of shooting mid 90's /100 prone and 60s/100 standing on a consistent basis. with her 888 and sling. doesn't like shooting Kneeling position, but shoots 70-80s /100
How do we go about getting his attitude etc changed, or am I nuts etc.

[Guest]

Is there no junior rifle club that your daughter can join? and skip 4H shooting altogether.

[Jay V]

Forget it. You won't be able to change the instructor enough to make it worthwhile.

Find a club in the area that is better tuned-in to 3P air rifle competition. Check club locators on the CMP, NRA, and USAS Shooting sites.

Some instructors like to teach standing first. It is the phase that usually wins the match, but it's also the least stable. We start in prone, the most stable. We feel that they have enough things going on (sight alignment, trigger control, etc) that standing is just too much to start with. Prone gives you more time to work with them without having them work to support the rifle. Because of the weight of the gun and (correct) height of the target, standing can be extremely challenging for smaller shooters - even after they have mastered the basics of prone.

New shooters need to see some amount of success. Some will not even hit the bullseye once their first time out in the standing position. They get discouraged, and don't try again.

Your daughter is doing well, and needs a competition-based club to help her advance - this program isn't going to do it.


Jay V
IL
www.aiac-airguns.org

[cmj]

Thanks for the feed back, it was my thoughts she needed to drop out of 4H, but the problem also is the nearest junior club is 1 1/2 hours away and only shoot during the school year on a school night, and she has to be up by 6AM to catch the school bus. She does get most of her shooting practice at home, I try to teach her the best I can, but I am no coach and you know how kids view their dads anyway.

[jhmartin]

First of all let me say I do love 4-H and what it does >>OVERALL<< for the kids. I am the coach of a county team in NM, and I have to always remember that 4-H is Youth Development, not just a shooting program.

That said, welcome to the 4-H club. Here in NM the county agents are much like yours, they do not know the rules (in my opinion in almost any discipline, whether it be AG, Home Ec, whatever) ... (I'm gonna rant here and paint with a broad brush ... not all are like this) They are mostly university employees that do not take the time to study these events/competitions) Our Rules were slapped together back in 2002 when NM was the site of the Nationals. Our State 4-H officials are now perceived as real clowns by most of the SS community

I'd suggest that you first give them a set of 3-P rules that has highlighted on the first page (cover) that 4-H is a member of the 3-Position Air Rifle Council, and as such has agreed to use these rules. Highlight the sporter sections. I get the same cr_p from our District "Air Rifle Superentendant", that they want the kids to have fun, but heck, how can they have fun shooting 0's and an occasional 1?

Second ... offer to help ... this will probably be refused as they usually think they know more than you

Third ... My club DOES NOT train by the NM 4-H set of screwed up rules ... we use the 3-P rules and then go to the 4-H competitions with the kids knowing that this is a "fun" match. If, when they are seniors, they happen to go to Nationals, they will be ready and not overwhelmed.

Fourth ... For real competitions go the registered 3-P matches by those that follow the rules. Here in NM I am blessed that our JROTC matches are open to us ... talk to you local high school JROTC instructors and they will most probably welcome you are you are their feeder program. If you make the mistake of asking what they think of the 4-H leader you have mentioned, I'll bet you get an ear full.

Fifth ... YOU ARE NOT ALONE, AND THEREFORE NOT CRAZY. I've only been doing this for 8 months now, and already we are gathering some very irate parents across the state. The parents run much of the 4-H and your State 4-H director may listen if a bunch of you are organized. (either that or we're all crazy)

Sixth, Seventh, Eighth .... I'll just not go on here ... I get the "stress giggles"

I think I have a real good program in it's infancy. Our main focus is competing in "real" 3-P events, and that is what we promote. I started with three shooters (my daughters) in November, and I now have 20. I probably have 10-12 at any one practice. By focusing on the events outside of 4-H the kids get excited, and when we do have a 4-H event, they call it a "baby event". (They actually call it a "Baby Shoot", but we try not to use that term too much ... ;-) )

Whatever your forum for getting the kids together, work it, even if it's 4-H, but widen the horizens as well.

Joel Martin
Valencia County NM
4-H Air Rifle Project Leader/Coach & Parent

[cmj]

We must be related. Unfortunately have pointed out the rules even furnishing a copy of the National program from CMP as well as the 4H rules posted for the 4H National match. Also a problem finding a facility to shoot in. There is no local options available outside of 4H closer than a 1 1/2 hour one way drive on a school night. and when she has to get up at 6AM to catch the school bus, homework and all that.
Fred Martin

[jhmartin]

Sounds like you ARE the coach.

I had originally volunteered for smallbore and shotgun here in Valencia county. At my first meeting of the shooting sports project leaders, there was a hole in the program for Air Rifle. (Most of our senior shooters consider it beneath them) I figured ... what the heck .. I'm loving this now

I started with my three girls (2 novices & 1 junior) in Nov and got a couple of "seniors" that were interested in Jan. Now seniors in NM are not the same as seniors in the nation. After the county shooting contest I picked up another "senior", and with these kids they qualified for the nationals. Bummer that they are too young this year to go.

One thing I've learned is that in 4-H is the the axiom "If you want something done right, you'd better do it yourself" applies. Declare yourself a project leader for your club, invite kids from other clubs to join your practices. Check you local fairgrounds, national guard armories, anyplace that may give you a bit of room to shoot. We only have 6 lanes set up in an old county fair building, but I've learned that I'm fortunate to have what we do.

A bit suprising to me that WA, which hosted the National workshop this year has these problems, but NM hosted the Nationals, and you'd have no clue to that AT ALL.

This board has been great for advice (especially JayV on the youth side). Keep peeking here.

--- Don't think I have any relatives in WA ... my Dad's side comes from the Oklahoma and Arkansas areas.

[Jay V]

Thanks for the feed back, it was my thoughts she needed to drop out of 4H, but the problem also is the nearest junior club is 1 1/2 hours away and only shoot during the school year on a school night, and she has to be up by 6AM to catch the school bus. She does get most of her shooting practice at home, I try to teach her the best I can, but I am no coach and you know how kids view their dads anyway.

Too bad about the problems getting to another club - have you tried all of the possibilities? How about your state CMP director? As Joel said, a good JROTC or high school program may be able to help you out - keep looking, sometimes programs are good but small and hard to find.

If you end up doing it on your own, get some good info. For starters, the CMP 3P air rifle coaching manual (I think that is the name) is a decent starting point. For more advanced coaching the Ways of the Rifle book ($55 - Pilkington) has a TON of info. You do need to realize it is geared toward Int'l 3P smallbore, with full equipment, so some of it doesn't translate directly to 3P sporter air rifle (most of it does though).

Do you have all of the other equipment (glove, sling, mat, scope, stands, etc)? If not let me know and I'll tell you what we have found to work best by trial-and-error.

Best of luck. It can be done on your own if your daughter is determined and patient.


Jay V
IL
www.aiac-airguns.org
jverg (at) att.net

[A. R. JAYNES]

I RUN A 4 H CLUB IN CA AND WE WILL START THE KID'S IN STANDING
BUT WE DON'T SHOOT JUST HOLD AND THEN GO TO PRONE . I MAY HAVE THEM HOLD FOR ABOUT 5 MIN. AND THEN WE GO TO PRONE . MOST OF THE OTHER 4H CLUB IN THE AREA WON'T USE SLINGS AND THEY CAN NOT COMPETE WITH US .MOST OF THEM WILL NOT SHOOT ANY MATCHES
WE USE THE 4H KID'S FOR THE FARM TEAM FOR THE HIGH SCHOOL TEAM
WE HAVE VERY GOOD EQUIP. NOW ,JACKETS ,PANTS AND SOME SHOES ,JUST BOUGHT 4 2002 CA RIFLES AND 1 P70 ,
I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU OPEN THE EYE'S OF A COACH TO LET THEM KNOW HOW BIG THIS SPORT COULD BE.I STAY VERY OPEN TO ANY ADVICE .I WILL READ THIS FORM DAILY .
IT SOUND'S LIKE YOUR DAUGHTER IS DOING VERY WELL. I WOULD SET UP AND RANGE AT HOME AND WORK THERE AND SHOOT AT THE 4H CLUB ALSO,IF YOUR DAUGHTER IS OUT SHOOTING THE OTHER KID'S YOU MAY SOON FIND YOUR THE LEADER ,BE CAREFUL FOR WHAT WE WISH .MY SON HAS NOT SHOT IN 5 YEARS, COLLEGE AND ALL. GOOD LUCK AND REMEMBER WE DO IT FOR FUN

[mikeschroeder]

Hi

In 4-H we are taught to teach Standing first since it is a more natural position and therefore easier to learn. We then go to Kneeling, sitting, and finally prone. Prone is the easiest to shoot, but hardest to learn correctly. We are in the process of getting rid of all of our 853's since many of the little weasels can't even cock one. Use the 888, buy a sling from the guy who advertises on the net. Go to your yearly 4-H training, that way you're also a leader and can legally help out. The BEST class on shooting is the NRA / USAS / CMP Smallbore coaching. Take that too, but the best idea is to get 4-H training, so you get to do what YOU want to do.

Mike
Wichita KS
NRA / 4-H Rifle, Shotgun, and Pistol AND smallbore coach.

Taking County coordinator training next , all of the other instructors are over 60 and diabetic.

[jhmartin]

[quote="mikeschroeder"]Hi

Go to your yearly 4-H training, that way you're also a leader and can legally help out. The BEST class on shooting is the NRA / USAS / CMP Smallbore coaching. Take that too, but the best idea is to get 4-H training, so you get to do what YOU want to do.

Mike
Wichita KS
NRA / 4-H Rifle, Shotgun, and Pistol AND smallbore coach.
[/quote]

Just an FYI to CMJ ... The CMP/NRA/USAS Coaching School still had plenty of slots for the October 4-6 school when I chatted with Martin a few weeks ago.

I start kids depending on their age & size. If they are 13-14 I start them standing, any younger I start with them shooting off a bench to learn how the sights work, move them to prone, then standing , then kneeling. ( I let them watch the others get up and limp, and somehow they seem to want to earn that badge of honor....)

[Jay V]

Hi

In 4-H we are taught to teach Standing first since it is a more natural position and therefore easier to learn. (SNIP)
Mike
Wichita KS
NRA / 4-H Rifle, Shotgun, and Pistol AND smallbore coach.

Hi Mike,

Some NRA Instructors go the same route, but I don't think there is anything more natural about holding a 7 pound rifle in standing than suporting it while laying down - neither is "natural" to me. I don't think there is anything easier about it (standing) either. The reasoning behind that method is flawed in my opinion.

The issue for me becomes giving the new student opportunity for success. They need some positive feedback early on. Prone gets them "in-the-black" quicker, but also gives them more time to concentrate on other issues besides struggling to support the rifle on-target. Supported from the bench is also a good way to start in my opinion.

Early in their training they need to direct the majority of their attention to sight alignment and trigger control, throwing-in having to support the rifle themselves while standing is just too much.

Feel free to disagree...


Jay V
IL

[mikeschroeder]

Hi

Actually, we do start them on the bench first, then standing. Most kids have either shot a gun in standing position, watched someone else do it, or at least watched TV. While not necessarily a good position, or easy, it seems to be the most known. We're trying to start from a known position.

This is for the beginning class:

Week 1, videos, and class work
2. Bench and more class work
3. Standing
4. Kneeling
5. Sitting
6. Prone
7, 8, and 9. Three position matches.

Mike

[cmj]

In our program we basically have 10-12 year old girls who are small in size. he (the leader) is constantly telling them they can win their competitions with the standing position , any body can shoot good prone. He seems to have something against CO2, ie 888's . telling the kids it is a much more powerful and dangerous rifle. He has 2 Crossman 2000's, but wont use them, CO2 I guess. The kids can't pump the 853s so his solution is a coach for everyone on the line to pump the rifle for them. Couple boys strong enough, also 11-12, but then this cuts everyones shooting time in half. Also has a couple light Daisy mentor rifles that require lot less effort to cock, but not much accuracy, and not an approved sporter rifle. They also have no sling provision. He also is responsible for certifying all 4H shooting leaders in the state!!! No chance to get any rythum as 5 shots then switch shooters. Last practice only had 3 shooters so got a total of 20 shots in 5 at a time.

[Pat McCoy]

After making sure everyone understandsproper sighting and trigger control by shooting groups from a prone supported position, we also start from standing and going progressively lower in the positions.

The advantage we have found is that with each change of position the shooter gets more success, thus building their confidence and desire to continue shooting.

This is really the first "mental training" the shooter is exposed to, although they are not told at that time that this is the beginning of their mental training.

[Jay V]

In our program we basically have 10-12 year old girls who are small in size. he (the leader) is constantly telling them they can win their competitions with the standing position , any body can shoot good prone. (SNIP)

Winning the competiton really shouldn't be the priority at that point. As we all have recently witnessed, teaching proper safety is really the priority for all of us.

The smaller 10-12 year old girls are the ones that really struggle with standing. The Daisy rifles don't have any amount of drop to the stock near the triggerguard, making getting the rifle high enough to get on-target especially difficult for them. Standing will be their most difficult position, physically, to master. In NRA events you can move the target down to help them out, for 3P Council events they have to shoot at the standard 55".

He is right about 1 thing, standing is important. If your sporter shooter is in the mid-90s prone, you are in the game, but if they can't shoot above mid-80s they are already out of contention. Once you have solid prone scores you can shift your training more towards standing, but saying anyone can shoot a good prone score is not true.

I don't think you will get anywhere with that program/instructor.


Jay V

[jhmartin]

In keeping an open mind to what that instructor is saying, if we look at the 4-H National and what events are shot, standing is indeed the most important.

Three Events (all three are shot at Nationals):

3x20 3-P --- 20 shots prone
20 shots standing
20 shots kneeling

40 Shot Standing

40 Shot Silhouette (shot standing)

So 100 of the 140 shots are in standing. I do see the point there, and I have my kids shoot more standing than anything else.

BUT ..... I think my shooters gain and keep their interest with the prone. I have to throw some in every now & then. They need to know that they can indeed shoot in the 80s & 90s in a stable position.

I had a shooter last week complain that a gun was bad, and the sights were off (standing). Had him lay down and did not allow him to touch the sights and he shot an 87.

"Nope, gun not bad ... position bad ... listen to me now?"

I do agree with Jay though, this guy would drive me nuts ...
(Maybe ask him to get down and shoot a target ... see how close he is to 90)
.... at least the county team I'm fortunate to coach did not have anyone doing it, so I was able to start fresh. (and continue to learn from other giving coaches)


Anyway you can do a club yourself outside of the 4-H and then just show up to whatever "matches" they have?

[Pat McCoy]

In keeping an open mind to what that instructor is saying, if we look at the 4-H National and what events are shot, standing is indeed the most important.

While more shots are fired from the standing position in your example, i think you will finsd that in 3P the most important position is kneeling (becasue it is the first tie breaker)

[anschutzshooter]

While more shots are fired from the standing position in your example, i think you will finsd that in 3P the most important position is kneeling (becasue it is the first tie breaker)

But if you don't have good standing scores, you may not even have to worry about kneeling being a tie breaker simply because there won't be a tie...I know I've personally fallen a few points behind in matches...sometimes by as much as 5 or 6 in prone...then came back strong in standing and kneeling to win. I'm not saying that kneeling isn't important, I'm just saying that standing is the most difficult (for most) to achieve the higher scores...kneeling is right up there though.

[Pat McCoy]

I'm not saying that kneeling isn't important, I'm just saying that standing is the most difficult (for most) to achieve the higher scores...kneeling is right up there though.

I agree standing is the most DIFFFICULT to master, however the discussion was about the most IMPORTANT. Our current 3P Air State Champ won on the tie breaker (she shot two points lower standing than her opponenet, but two point highweer in kneeeling).