Adjusting Sights During a Match- "Coals To Newcastle&qu

[Steve Swartz]

In a separate thread (on adjusting Morini sights), a question was raised challenging the need for making adjustments to the sights during a match.

The issue is not the need to have sights properly adjusted, nor the need to compensate for the effects of wind. Yes, we should all properly calibrate our sights during the authorized adjustment period. The issue was the perceived disadvantage of having easy to use adjustment wheels vs. a screwdriver.

I staked out a position that shooters do NOT need to adjust their sights during a match, once properly sighted in (to accomodate the calibration of electronic target systems, etc.). My position is that changes in the conditions of lighting have perhaps a great effect on our behaviors in delivering the shot- and that the solution is to not use the sights as a "crutch" to accomodate the improper behaviors, but insteaed to recognize how lighting affects our shot process and correct the behaviors.

"Well," "You Can Imagine!"

I was taken to task (what a rare event!) for this position- as it obviously flies in the face of conventional wisdom. It was pointed out that an excellent summary of this conventional wisdom was included in Nygord's Notes on the subject.

O.K., here goes. Grab a cup of coffee and settle in. Tray tables in upright locked positions and all that. Nygords Notes in regular text, my comments surrounded with **

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

OK, why do we need to adjust our sights and become confident in our ability to do so? Let us count the whys.

1. Light.

This is probably the biggest reason that adjustments will need to be made by the pistol shooter. Not only do the lighting conditions vary from range to range (especially indoor ranges), but they will vary during the match (outdoors especially.) Even indoor ranges with windows to the outside will see varying light during the hour or two of a match. And, there is an old adage: "The group will follow the light." One common occurrence on outdoor ranges is for the sun to cross from right to left(left to right) on north(south) facing ranges. And, yes, your group will move across the target with it. The reason this occurs is that light refracts off the sharp edges of the front sight, tending to create a "halo" effect there and blurring or making indistinct that edge toward the light source. Then, you center the apparent black bar (which is now thinner than it would be without refraction) and voila! - the group has moved in the direction of the light.

** Disregard everything above about shooting outdoors. What are we left with? Not much. O.K., Mea Maxima Culpa. Chase your sights around when shooting under widely varying changing light conditions if you must- for iron-sighted conventional pistol ("Bullseye") outdoors under widely varying lighting conditions if that is your only option. The alternative is to make the halo effect go away- and that's exactly why Don sold me that $300 pair of glasses. Read carefully the conditions above under which the principle applies- mainly iron-sight bullseye shooters shooting all day with a N-S range orientation. Well, O.K. **

Another effect of changing light is the apparent change in size of the black aiming area. When the target is brightly lit, the bull will appear smaller. This is due to a "bleed over" effect on the retina of the eye. The rods and cones at the demarcation line of the black image and the white background are over-stimulated by the amount of light entering the eye and some cells will "fire off" when they shouldn't, blurring the boundary and registering "white" instead of "black". Obviously, this will result in high groups.

** See above. How much will the size of the aiming bull change under "normal" conditions? Even outdoors? Between a very dark, overcast day and a very bright day- how big is the change in apparent size? On a N-S oriented range vs. an E-W range? Theoretically this sounds good. What have we actually seen in practice? Yes, allright, when I was shooting iron sighted bullseye, I would adjust my sights prior to starting the match. But that's not exactly what we were talking about, was it? Again, that there iris doo-hickey comes in real handy- see Nygord's notes on properly using diopters and irises if you don't believe me. **

Light is the major external cause of shifting groups, but another one is wind. While rifle shooters are very skilled at 'reading' wind, pistols shooters often ignore it. One can get away with this when it is possible to wait for lulls and only shoot during them, but sometimes wind is more or less constant and from primarily one direction and then it should be obvious that a sight change to compensate for the effect on the projectile and the shooter is needed.

** Not applicable at all to the discussion at hand. When the wind is bad enough at 50m to affect the flight of .22 LR bullets, it will have some elements of gust to it as well. Go ahead, take 10 clicks. Or learn how to read the wind. Or both. **

2. The shooter.

More subtle, but often just as important, effects on grouping are internal or shooter based:

** On this we may actually agree; this was my point exactly. However, Don's recommendation is for the shooter to compensate for his errors instead of preventing the errors. I wish he were able to join the discussion. Would have been interesting to hear more rationale. Oh well- details follow. **

A. Body position or stance. If you change your body position in relation to the target, the group will shift. Back in the "Micro Sight" days, if you wanted a 'small' click adjustment from right to left, instead of adjusting the sight you simply moved your left foot in the direction you wanted the group to go and it obligingly WOULD move!

** Anyone want to defend this? Not me. I have an alternative idea- why not shoot inside your NPA with the best stance, grip and body position possible in order to release the shots reliably? If your stance/grip/body position needs to change during a match (it will anyway) recognize it and work with it- right? Not sure what he is advocating here. Sounds like he is recommending that if your stance is screwed up, adjust your sight to compensate? That can't be right. **

B. Head position. A sub-set of body position often changed unwittingly is the position of the head. I have seen shooters who, during the delivery of the shot, let their heads gradually droop toward the chest. As long as this droop is absolutely consistent, it will matter little. But, if the head position changes from shot to shot or string to string you will either see a shift in group or a much wider group than normal.


** See above. If your head is crooked, straighten out your head. **

C. Grip Pressure/Position. One of the advantages of "orthopedic" grips is that theoretically they will reduce variation in how the gun is held in the hand. This is, of course, good. A very important factor not always getting the attention it should is consistency in grip pressure. It should be obvious that if, under stress, you grip the gun more tightly than 'normal', the group will shift. And, gripping more loosely will cause a shift as well, of course.

** See above. If your grip is inconsistent, fix your grip. **

D. Fatigue. In the course of a long match such as Free Pistol or Air Pistol, there WILL be fatigue. This can cause changes in A,B, and/or C above. When I was at my peak, I regularly saw my shots in Air Pistol "walk" across the 10 ring from right to left as the match progressed. It took about 8 shots to go from the right hand edge to the left! I just accepted this and took one click to the right every 8 shots or so. Another element of fatigue is the loss of eye focal accommodation and acuity. Fuzzier sights may easily cause the group to change.

** One more time- what good are those $300 glasses if we are supposed to accept suboptimal sight picture and use the sight knob to walk our shots around? **

>>>>>>>>>>>> End Annotated Nygord's Notes <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Steve "Flip" Swartz

[RobStubbs]

Steve,
I read what you write and kind of agree with the thinking but I don't agree with the results. There are numerous aspects that will vary during a match, many of which you can accomodate others you can't. Sure we can move stance slightly and rest our tired muscles (wherever they may be). However climate affects you as a shooter; your state of health, hydration, your blood sugar levels and many other factors. Now I don't know (or to be honest care) what causes me to shoot high for a set of shots, then low, then left etc... But I know it happens and those twiddly knobs are there for me to correct for the changing point of impact. It happens when I practice as much as in a match so why should I baulk at changing my sights ? If I didn't I would lose points and that's just plain daft. Perhaps I should concentrate on ironing out the problems that cause me to move around the target - but hey I don't even have a regular coach so I'm onto a loser there for starters.

Again I re-iterate I do understand your comments but in the real world a lot of shooters need to adjust their sights and if they stop doing so they will suffer because of it.

Rob.

[Richard H]

Steve if you really don't need those knobs you should loc-tite yours in position. Like Mr Stubb's says, if I shoot half a dozen shots to the low side in a row in a match I make a sight adjustment. In a perfect world it would be great to be able to analze why and correct the problem in a more permanent fashion but why lose points by not adjusting the sights for whatever is causing the problem (as long as it is consistent).

[Axel]

For me, small sight adjustments during a match is normal. Just keep the adjustments very small - one click up/down/left/right doesn't do much in "real world", but in my mind it makes a difference, and results improve.

[RobStubbs]

For me, small sight adjustments during a match is normal. Just keep the adjustments very small - one click up/down/left/right doesn't do much in "real world", but in my mind it makes a difference, and results improve.

Axel,
That's a good point. Like you I just single click which as the business end is a very small movement. Probably not enough to totally move a shot from where it went to a 10.9 but enough to move the POI in the right direction.

Rob.

[PETE S]

There is a classic experiment in process control where one drops a ball from a funnel onto a flat, level surface. The goal is to have the ball come to rest in the exact center of the surface. Of course the ball often bounces and then rolls to a stop else where on the surface though the funnel started directly over the exact center.

When do you move the funnel? What are your rules?

Invariably, the rule that says never move the funnel has the least variation and has the best results.

Shooting is a more complex system. But the point remains, do you want to adjust your sights to compensate for other changes in your shooting system (or technique)? Most will answer YES!

If you put some number of shots low and left during training or a match, do you want to adjust your sights or should you determine the root cause of the change and try to correct that root cause.

Short term, adjusting the sights might seem like the correct action. But have you improved your technique? Or have you actually increased your variability by accepting using a different technique? What do you do when you change your technique again?

And the point of this sport is to control your technique!

[EdStevens]

This being so much a mental game, I think that whether or not many shooters adjust their sights by a click or two is largely a mental effect. As seen earlier posts, it may not be enough of a mechanical effect to actually fix the shift in group. What it does fix is mental comfort. If you believe that the adjustment will fix the group then it will. The zen effect.

Others (myself included) see the shift as a problem with technique, not the sights. I trust the sights and that if I break the shot properly with them in alignment, it will be a ten. I trust what that looks and feels like. If the group has shifted, I did something wrong. I try harder to make a good shot rather than adjust the sights. Trusting the sights makes me comfortable instead of adjusting them. If I fiddle with the sights, I don't trust the visual feedback of "that was good" to be true any more.

I think it comes down to what makes you comfortable and confident as much as any mechanical adjustment.

Having said that, of course, I am hardly a world-class shot, so what do I know.

[Ed Hall]

I firmly believe in studying and working to improve technique... during training. In a match, it's time to evaluate your training and accumulate points. If your "group" is off center, it is much better to trim your sights than to start looking for errors to correct. If you search for trouble, you will find it, whether it's the real cause of the shift or not. If your technique is a little off, but your training has been good, you will migrate back to your natural center via your subconscious. But what if your true zero should be two clicks left and you spend fifteen minutes trying to figure out "what's wrong?" It's a lot less frustrating and usually more rewarding to believe everthing's fine and you just needed to trim your zero.

What do you do when you change your technique again?

All the adjustable sights I've ever used worked in both directions.

The key to high scores is in the consistent aplication of the fundamentals, whether that aplication is truly perfect, or consistently flawed. A shooter with a very repeatable jerk and a screwdriver will do better in a match than a perfectionist who tries to "fix" their technique based on the last shot(s).

One of the best approaches a shooter can have for a match is to believe everything is perfect that day. But, one of the quickest ways to "kill" that belief is to think they must be doing something wrong.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/

[RobStubbs]

Ed,
I think your post sums it up and totally agree that in a match is not the time to search for problems or errors. We need to concentrate 100% on the shot process otherwise we have lost the mental game.

Also trying to sort out why we are moving our point of aim is a long and complex process. So yes we'd all like to fix that problem but it is the sort of thing that will take months, more likely years. So in the short term if your shots are moving around the target (in a consistent manner) then move the sights accordingly.

Rob.

[David Levene]

And the point of this sport is to control your technique!

Sorry but I must disagree. The point of the sport is to win. If adjusting the sights during a match will centralize my group, hopefully increasing my score, then my sights will be adjusted.

A match is not the time to worry about your detailed technique ("if you ain't brought it with you, dont expect to find it here"), it is a time to put as many points on your score as you can.

[PETE S]

What is the point of shooting matches? Is a local match the same as the your national match or a team selection match? Are some matches used for training and testing your technique, for evaluating your training program?

If all matches, each and every match, are just get the best score you possibly can for that particular match that day, is that short term thinking versus long term improvement in technique and behavoirs?

Thanks for the positive discussion and exchange of ideas.

[Steve Swartz]

Great discussion so far- but a fundamental question:

Proactive or Reactive?

My $0.02:

"Reactive" is the practice of twiddling your knobs around during a match.

"Proactive" is the practice of using your technique to reduce variability.

Taken to it's extreme, the "Reactive" approach recommends that in a match, if you begin jerking the trigger (for whatever reason) you are better off adjusting your sights to compensate for the jerk.

The "Proactive" school of thought would say identify and correct the jerk during the match.

O.K. Sports Fans- do you *really* want to claim that the reactive approach is worth more points than the proactive approach?

Really?

Steve "Train the way you shoot and shoot the way you train" Swartz

[David Levene]

Taken to it's extreme, the "Reactive" approach recommends that in a match, if you begin jerking the trigger (for whatever reason) you are better off adjusting your sights to compensate for the jerk.

The "Proactive" school of thought would say identify and correct the jerk during the match.

O.K. Sports Fans- do you *really* want to claim that the reactive approach is worth more points than the proactive approach?

As you say, an extreme example. Take a less extreme one. For some reason the group is centred at 10 o'clock averaging a 9.5

Do you really want to mess about trying to work out why the group is not in the middle or do you give it a couple of clicks and get the average up to 9.8

You obviously don't change the sights to chase the odd shots but if your group is as good as it normally is, or maybe slightly bigger, then just adjust the sights and maximise your score. In ISSF pistol shooting you don't win prizes for having a perfect technique.

[Ed Hall]

Hi Steve,

I have to disagree with your definitions. Again, this is interpretations and language ambiguities, but what if I reworded your definitions to my own version:

"Reactive" is the practice of twiddling with your technique during a match.

"Proactive" is the practice of accepting today's environment and moving the center of your group via the mechanical zeroing devices.

I would like to suggest that the above "reactive" approach can promote a feeling of frustration pretty quickly, if you're in a match and start thinking something isn't right. Conversely, if your training has been well ingrained and you enter a match with confidence and hold that everything is working well, even if you have to change zero, your attitude will get you more points than chasing technical errors. I do have to add a caveat, though. You can't take this down to the single shot arena with success. This has to be a case where you are working with a well defined group and not chasing individual errors. I would again suggest that attitude-wise it is best to perfect technique in training and "go with what you have" for matches. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be attempting to perform flawless technique in a match. What I am suggesting is that you use an available method of effecting a fairly accurate change that doesn't tax your confidence in the day.

Let's toss out two versions of a simple example:

Setting 1 - I just started my sighters for AP and I notice everything is off slightly to the left. I regrip and check everything and I still seem to be in the same area. Match time is clocking away. I decide to move my sights to zero and away I go into the match. About 20 shots in the holes start to drift right. I move the sights back to zero and continue to the finals.

Setting 2 - I just started my sighters for AP and I notice everything is off slightly to the left. I regrip and check everything and I still seem to be in the same area. I check all the intricacies of my grip, finger, stance, glasses and analyze my operation of the trigger. I try to decide if I am pushing or pulling or if my thumb is more or less involved, etc. The next thing you know, I've lost any consistency I brought with me to the match. I've also used up some match time trying to figure out what's wrong. My attitude has now changed to a feeling that this is not going to be a good day, since I can't figure out what is going on. Even if I figure out "something" to blame for the slow start, my group has opened some from the doubt I brought into my performance. I fight to bring the confidence back, but have abandoned hope for a "good" match. Now I'm just trying to not be embarrassed.

To address others' posts:

Training should be the arena to try changes and work on perfecting technique while matches should be an avenue to evaluate how your training has prepared you for the competition. You should approach each match as an opportunity to see where you are on your path. The acceptance of performance enlarges into the acceptance of self at whatever level you have attained. Enter a match with full confidence that you will perform to your ability. After the match, evaluate what that ability is and modify your training to meet your goals.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/

[Steve Swartz]

"Setting 2 - I just started my sighters for AP and I notice everything is off slightly to the left. I regrip and check everything and I still seem to be in the same area. I check all the intricacies of my grip, finger, stance, glasses and analyze my operation of the trigger. I try to decide if I am pushing or pulling or if my thumb is more or less involved, etc. The next thing you know, I've lost any consistency I brought with me to the match. I've also used up some match time trying to figure out what's wrong. My attitude has now changed to a feeling that this is not going to be a good day, since I can't figure out what is going on. Even if I figure out "something" to blame for the slow start, my group has opened some from the doubt I brought into my performance. I fight to bring the confidence back, but have abandoned hope for a "good" match. Now I'm just trying to not be embarrassed. "

Well, O.K. Ed, if that's what *you* want to do . . .

(invoking the straw man argument warning flag)

Steve

[F. Paul in Denver]

Steve,

I dont think Ed's second scenario is a distortion of your position at all (assuming this is your basis for characterizing it as a straw man argument).

Ed's scenario makes very real sense to me as does some of the other posters who encourage making a sight adjustment in mid match if necessary. It's quite possible many of us havent quite attained the level of focus and concentration you are capable of during a match.

Personally I know that if I start thinking too much during a match, my performance suffers. Coach Buljung used to love yelling, "No stinking thinking."


It seems easier for me to just fix the damn problem esp during a match rather then spending precious time taking the problem apart, figuring out what the hell has changed and then go about fixing it. The latter approach may be more appropriate for training/practice.

F. Paul in Denver

[Ed Hall]

Although I may have exaggerated a little, I'd almost wager that scenario #2 (to varying degrees) is far too familiar to more than a few shooters. I'm constantly hearing the phrase (or similar), "I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong today!" Where is this type of attitude coming from? I have also seen, too many times to count, an individual trying to figure out what they're doing wrong because they just sighted in their gun off the bench and can't make the rounds hit the same area off hand. Granted these shooters aren't AA classed, but to a minor degree we bring this to the higher classes as well.

Just for grins and a chance to tell me how much more of my eye is turning brown, I'd like to propose a training exercise for any who would like to play. The task is simple: Place an appropriate target at the proper distance and fire ten shots without verifying anything. If you can see the hits it will skew the results. Be serious with your approach, putting forth your best effort to be consistent in your application of your technique. When your ten shots are completed, use an overlay to determine the best score for the group and then multiply that score appropriately to determine how it compares to your last match.

Now, for any who might say, "But, my first targets are always better, so this isn't representative of an entire match." think for a moment as to why your later targets are less appealing. Could it be because you are falling into my "straw man" scenario, maybe just a little?

If you take me up on my suggestion, do be careful not to let negative beliefs interfere with any success. Remember that we are a strong-willed sort and can readily prove that we can't do something, even more easily than proving we can.<smile>

It might be more statistically significant to try this more than once, so feel free to try it any time and as often as you like. And do provide feedback in either direction. I have high shoulders and can take some pounding into the ground. In fact, maybe that might even help me sway less in the wind.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/

[funtoz]

I will never, ever, forget a center fire match where I was shooting way out high and left (nice group too). I spent the entire match trying to fix whatever it was that I was doing wrong. I was doing so badly that the other shooters were offering suggestions as what might be wrong with my shooting. It was my worst performance ever in a match... and guess what? The next Tuesday in practice the hits were in the same place. I finally moved the sights after another week of self flagellation. I never figured out why the sights “moved”, but they never came back. I don't chase shots, but I learned the hard way to have faith in my shot plan and adjust the hardware when needed.

Larry

[Steve Swartz]

Sometimes it's amusing to have other people put their own spin on "what they think they heard you intended to say." Not today.

Believe me- this is the third or fourth version of a blistering response that I have written that I will (I'm tired) abandon for the purpose of generating some light bulbs instead of creating heat. So here's the "Socratic Alternative" version (Yeah, it still seems cranky. Believe me, you don't want to read the original version(s). Let's see if I can tie my own record and irritate/offend absolutely everyone with a single post.):

1) Sighter shots are there for a reason. Adjust your sights to compensate for local conditions. I have been saying that all along.

2) During a match- what "Extra" analysis is required to figure out what you might have done wrong for a shot (let alone a string of shots)?





Deep breath . . . relax . . . Align, Focus, Flow . . .

>> Capitalization for emphasis; not to denote SHOUTING please <<



Perhaps I am either misunderstanding- or being misunderstood. I find it quite puzzling to read that I am advocating some deep thinking trouble shooting during a match. Next thing you know, folks will be saying I actually think the "Wheel of Misfortune" is a good idea . . . (I hate that thing).

- Funtoz: Not being properly properly sighted in in the first place is indeed an improtant issue- but I thouhgt we agreed that that was already taken care of and quite necessary for local conditions. As far as I knew we were talking about Air Pistol and to a lesser degree Free Pistol. I have already conceded that for other disciplines (like iron sight bullseye) sight adjustment MAY be required in midstream for other reasons like wind correction.

- Ed: Not sure why it would it take you more than a single shot and/or 3 seconds to correct an improper execution of a shot in air pistol. I never advocated flailing away (with EITHER a screwdriver OR your technique) during a match. Please consider this point: If, after properly adjusting your sights, the MPI shifts during a match YOU have slipped somewhere. Either "unslip yourself" (my point) OR adjust your sights and press (not recommended). I prefer to unslip my technique. I'll be glad to discuss why that is a superior technique to just ignoring the slippage and adjusting your sights. Hope we can get back to that argument soon. Your third way is not an exaggeration so much as it is a separate issue? I agree with you- your strawman scenario sucks. Been there, done that.

- Ed Again: Ref exercise about executing proper behaviors without analyzing target- MY POINT EXACTLY! Why does this exercise work? Because focusing on EXECUTING PROPER BEHAVIORS (and not chasing your sights around) is a Good Idea. How about this: do your exercise during sighters- then adjust the sights- THEN SHOOT THE MATCH. Right? No? Why not? As long as you are EXECUTING THE PROPER BEHAVIORS YOUR MPI WON'T CHANGE . . . right? Wrong? (that's my point- and I agree it is by itself controversial and against "conventional wisdom."). Ed- as to "negative reinforcement- reaching for the screwdriver as opposed to focusing on proper execution sounds pretty negative to me . . .

- F. Paul: Yes, the "No Stinkin Thinkin" principle is a critical element of EXECUTING THE PROPER BEHAVIORS, is it not?! "Thinking" during the shot is a prime reason for executing the abort, right? Your shot plan should establish all the conditions necessary for delivering the perfect shot- and it should include everything from your toes to the muzzle. By the time you settle in the wobble area and prepare to release the shot, haven't you already established that you are executing all the proper behaviors? If not, why not? What additional "Thinking" is needed? If you get to the point of shot release and all is not well, don't take the shot . . .


O.K., sorry to disappoint. Lots of excellent points raised- glad the points were raised.

Anyone interested in discussing/refuting the proposition "As Long As You Are Executing The Proper Behaviors, Your MPI Won't Change?"

(Associated assumptions: you have properly sighted in in the first place, you don't have any gross equipment failure like running out of air, busting your regulator or switching pellet brands in mid match etc.)

I guess that is *my* fundamental assumption. If it is wrong, then my argument falls apart.

Sorry. It's late . . . I'm tired . . . It's not my intend to give offense. Having a bad "Communication Day" on this topic I guess. I'm trying to clarify what I said/tried to say/what my point was.

Old friends, new friends: I'll try harder to be just as controversial but in a more sociable way in the future.

Steve

[funtoz]

Gee Steve. Take a breath. I'm sure not offended and you sure shouldn't be either. I didn't realize we were just talking about air and free pistol. After all standard and center fire are fairly similar sports, shot one handed with iron sights. And most of them, including free pistol are shot outdoors where the sun and shadows and wind do make a difference. Even air pistol, when shot on some indoor ranges can be similarly affected. You aught to hear the West Seattle guys complain about our air range. As far as my center fire event went, the gun was sighted in properly before I got there, and had been for probably a year or so before. I'm not a great fan of twiddling with equipment, it usually is the shooter that is screwing up... except on occasion when a willingness to make hardware adjustments just may save your beans. Yeah, you should first look to your shot plan when things are wrong, checking for loose screws, leaking cylinders, and bad ammo is a close second, but after a few shots of that, Ed's right, change the sights, get some points and figure it out later.

You don't have to adjust your sights if you don't want to. I don't mind at all.

Larry