Purchase advice for beginner/intermediate

jbolyard · Post by **jbolyard** » Fri May 20, 2005 11:59 am

I began shooting a few months ago at my sportsmans club using the club's SAM K9's. I have progressed in about two months up to between Expert and Distinguished Expert on the NRA scale - I'm shooting 500-515.

I would like to participate in some competitions and continue my improvement as a 10M air pistol shooter - however I cannot use the club guns away at a competition - so I'm forced to purchase for myself if I want to compete.

My questions:

1) The only pistol I've used or have chance to use is these K9's. They weigh about 850g by my scale. Most full size guns I see are 1100g give or take and longer overall. Should I be working toward using one of these more "full sized" pistols - or should I limit my choices to the similarly sized ones available?

2) If I should stick with the lighter feel I'm familiar with - My research indicates my choices would be MG1 Light, Anshutz LP Junior, SAM K9, Morini 162 EI short. Is that it?

3) How do I choose between these with no opportunity to see, feel or shoot any?

4) Lastly - I'm going to have difficulty stretching my budget to buy one of these pistols - any advice on the "value" buy?

Thanks in advance!

jrmcdaniel · Post by **jrmcdaniel** » Fri May 20, 2005 12:47 pm

1. Buy used. A SAM M10 used is about $500 (according to Pilkinton's anyway). Removing the weights will lighten the gun. I ended up taking all the weights and the weight bar off my M10 and like it far better that way. I did not check to see how much weight this removed but it was very noticable.

2. Not light, but an IZH-46 (not the 46M) is cheap (often can be had for about $220 new).

3. If you do go SAM and need an XS grip, I have one I will sell (or exchange for a M or L).

URLs for used 10M guns:
viewforum.php?f=7
http://www.nealjguns.com/ss_store/index.html
http://www.pilkguns.com/usedguns.htm
http://targetshooting.ca/index.html
and here, of course viewforum.php?f=7&sid=d16633ee51a5cbe208a803b40cbdb08a

Best,

Joe

Andy Osborne · Post by **Andy Osborne** » Fri May 20, 2005 2:03 pm

The rod on the M10 is 100g and the sliding weights are 25 g each. My M10 with a large rink grip was weighed at 1084g at the last comp I shot so 934g with it all removed, a little less with a smaller grip.

Andy

2 cents worth · Post by **2 cents worth** » Sat May 21, 2005 2:15 am

If you like the Sam then take a look at the Match guns MG1 very nice AP with a great trigger. Have 25,000 round through mine and not a problem

jbolyard · Post by **jbolyard** » Sat May 21, 2005 9:36 am

Thanks to those who have responded so far. I'm hoping I will receive suggestions which address my question of whether to change to a heavier/longer AP vs. staying with the shorter/lighter styles.

Does anyone have experience that would say "you'll never get any good with the short/light style" - or "none of the top competitors use a lighter AP" - or "it doesn't matter - whatever you like best is fine".

Any takers?

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Sat May 21, 2005 11:49 am

J:

You will hear a lot of people say "get what's best for you," "It's a matter of personal choice," etc.

True enough.

What you *won't* hear is a definition of "best," what "best" means, or how to figure out "what's best for you."

What does this all mean? Back to your original quest:

The ONLY thing that matters is your ability to

1) ALIGN the sights PERFECTLY
2) SETTLE into your minimum arc of movement
3) ACCEPT your settle, then
4) RELEASE the shot while not disturbing the perfect alignment

Here's the bottom line- WHATEVER equipment helps you achive 1-4 above- long barrel, short barrel, heavy weight, light weight, fat grip, thin grip, electric trigger, mechanical trigger, whatever- is THE BEST equipment for you.

That having been said, the issue of limited budget is a real pisser. However, with a couple of bad "been there, done that" experiences under my own belt, the Pilkguns slogan is absolutely correct: Quality Has No Regrets.

Sell your blood plasma. Sell a kidney. Get another job. Buy the BEST (see above) equipment that you can the first time around. You may or may not stick with that equipment as your skills progress (the definition of BEST does not change, but as your skills develop different equipment may meet that definition), but you will certainly be able to get back almost as much as what you put into your gear when you "trade over."

Steve Swartz

(do the math: buy 3 guns of increasing cost before finding the right one of match-grade quality. Compare that total cost to buying the match-grade equipment first.)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat May 21, 2005 2:22 pm

personally I shoot an LP1, I feel that with out the weigght the gun almost feels too light and my wobble is a bit too large. When this happens I slide on the weight and my groups inprove 50 %

Ned · Post by **Ned** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:15 pm

If you don't have holding problem or you are not a junior shooter, I will suggest "full size" pistol.

When I was looking to buy AP, the best source of information was my club. Most shooters were glad to let me try their pistols.

Best value for money, the price doesn't vary much for the pistols in the same category. Maybe Matchguns, they cost 200 euros less than the others and shooters in our club find them ok.

- Ned

ben · Post by **ben** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:06 am

I shoot an LP5. I have shoulder problems with the result that the gun is too heavy. The gun shoots far better than I can! I have recently ordered a LP2 Compact on the argument that it is very easy to increase the weight, but most exceedingly difficult to make a reduction. There is a great deal to be said for graduating from a gun with which you are familiar, rather than making an expensive jump into the unknown.
hope this helps
ben

Bill177 · Post by **Bill177** » Sun May 22, 2005 7:48 am

I shoot a Pardini K2 and have both the standard and short cylinders for it.

When I change from the standard cylinder to the short cylinder, there is a change of weight and balance, but not of the gun itself. Grip and trigger remain as constants.

In experimenting and keeping records of my shooting, I find there is no real difference noted when changing cylinders - except comfort. On some days, the short cylinder offers just enough change to make a long shooting session more enjoyable.

I chose the Pardini based on how it felt in my hand (and all the associated variables surrounding that feel) and the mechanics of pellet loading. Note that part of the decision process was based on excellent brand experience shooting the Pardini K60. My second choice would have been the LP2.

Two things to note: I shoot for enjoyment and the gun will always out shoot me. So, recognizing these factors, I go for comfort and ease.

Keep looking and asking questions, that is how you learn.

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Sun May 22, 2005 11:52 am

Not to quibble with Ben and Bill; I'm certain I must be misinterpreting what they meant to say, however

"The gun shoots better than I do"

Just what the blue blazes is that supposed to mean?

Sorry. Let me take a deep breath here and relax.

Yeah, o.k., I have heard it used many times and it usually means "I shoot so crappy I don't really need good equipment."

But I'm sure that's not what either of meant by the statement.

And I apologize in advance if I am misreading what *you* were trying to say. However, I have heard that phrase many times and it's well, kind of erroneous in several respects.

Consider: *any* gun will only *add* error to the shooting system. There is no gun in the world, in the hands of no shooter, that will "tighten" the Circular Error Probable of the shooter. Physically impossible.

The best you can ever do is buy a gun that doesn't add too much error to your shooting.

Now, you have a choice: Do I buy a gun that adds 0.07" to my CEP, or do I buy a gun that adds 0.70" to my CEP?

Neither gun "shooots better than anyone;" however, with one gun you can be reasonably sure that you are at least able to reach your potential for any given shot (+- 0.07"), but for the other gun you are flailing away in the dark.

O.K., if you're just in the sport to "cap some rounds," fine. But "the gun shoots better than I do" is a NON SEQUITUR that is used to convince people with a self-defeating attitude that they will always be able to blame their equipment.

Sorry guys- but I have met way too many "Lifetime Expert" level shooters who waste $ then $$ then $$$ then $$$ again on their "equipment du jour" when they could have spent a whole lot less- one time- and invested their time and effort into TRAINING. What does "the gun shoots better than I do" really mean? That since I am a casual, mediocre shooter I can "get by" with a casual, mediocre gun?

When someone invents a gun that will truly "shoot better than the competitor" you better believe it will be BANNED from the sport!

Steve Swartz

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:31 pm

Steve Swartz wrote:What does "the gun shoots better than I do" really mean? That since I am a casual, mediocre shooter I can "get by" with a casual, mediocre gun?

When I use the phrase I mean that if the shot is not a 10.9 then it is my fault and not the gun's. I am pretty sure that most people would use the phrase in a similar way.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:08 pm

Here Here David!!
And thanks to Bill177 for his contribution to the subject.

Bill177 · Post by **Bill177** » Sun May 22, 2005 4:48 pm

My definition of "shoots better than me":

When the gun is mounted into a shooting vise, it will consistently shoot a single hole - shot after shot after shot. Same is a feat that I cannot duplicate while holding the same gun in my hand.

Perhaps, to make it a little more simple and easier to understand, I should have stated that the gun is capable of greater accuracy than I am capable of allowing it to shoot.

In smaller words - when the gun shoots anything less than perfection, it is my fault.

Semantics are such fun to play with!

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Sun May 22, 2005 5:23 pm

Yeah, well, since I'm so bashful about sharing my personal opinions:

************************************************************
Soapbox mode ON:
************************************************************

Semantics, schmenantics.

I'm not quibbling here. There is a very substantive point to be made, and it strikes to the heart of a shooter's attitude about their own potential and how serious they are about reaching that potential.

"When the gun is mounted into a shooting vise, it will consistently shoot a single hole - shot after shot after shot. Same is a feat that I cannot duplicate while holding the same gun in my hand."

O.K., that means the CEP from the gun is less than the CEP from your hand- in other words, as long as you + the gun is equal to or slightly less than TWICE AS BAD as you alone could shoot (with theoretical "perfect equipment"), you're o.k. with that level of quality.

Think about that for a minute . . .

then you say

"In smaller words - when the gun shoots anything less than perfection, it is my fault."

No, that's actually NOT what you said the first time at all.

What you are really saying is when the shot holes are scattered all over the place, it is just as likely to be my fault as the gun's fault (50-50 likelihood that the error was mine- or the gun).

In order for your second statement to be true, the gun would not have to be as sloppy as you- it would have to be one heck of lot tighter.

Match grade, in other words.

In order for your first statement to be true, the gun would only have to have to be marginally tighter than your capabilities.

Which one is it?

Look, I'm sorry if I sound like I'm hammering you guys (not just Bill- but David, and Ben, and perhaps many others who use this phrase casually without thinking about what it *really* means).

I also realize that not everyone is in this sport to do the best they can. Many shooters (God Bless us all) go at the sport for relaxation, cameraderie, whatever- and I'm not knocking any of that.

However

Don't kid yourselves- and don't lead others astray- and let's be brutally honest.

If you want to reach your potential- for whatever reason- you MUST buy the best damn equipment AVAILABLE (ref previous posting for definition of "best").

To the point at hand

Jbolyard, if you are still listening (don't blame you if you tuned out):

What do you want to do? Do you want to be a "lifetime expert?" Are you happy shooting 9s? Fine. Vaya con Dios. Buy a Crossman 747 or a Gamo or whatever. Be happy. But make that decision eyes wide open.

*************************************************************
Soapbox mode OFF.
************************************************************

Sorry if I made a lot of you angry. "Honesty" maybe is not always "the best policy."

To quote the great 20th century philosopher, Gump: "And that's all I'm going to say about that."

Steve Swartz

Step´ What´s · Post by **Step´ What´s** » Mon May 23, 2005 5:15 am

Thanks, Steve.

I love your posts :).

Regards again,

Stephen Whatkinson

bluechucky · Post by **bluechucky** » Mon May 23, 2005 6:14 am

2 cents worth wrote:If you like the Sam then take a look at the Match guns MG1 very nice AP with a great trigger. Have 25,000 round through mine and not a problem

Had the opportunity to purchase one of these, and I liked the way it felt in my hand as much as an LP10.

Considering there was about $200 AUD difference, I opted for the LP-10 instead.

I figure I want to be fairly serious about this sport, so its better if I get a gun that will last me a while, and not something I will change.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon May 23, 2005 6:51 am

Steve Swartz wrote:"When the gun is mounted into a shooting vise, it will consistently shoot a single hole - shot after shot after shot. Same is a feat that I cannot duplicate while holding the same gun in my hand."

O.K., that means the CEP from the gun is less than the CEP from your hand- in other words, as long as you + the gun is equal to or slightly less than TWICE AS BAD as you alone could shoot (with theoretical "perfect equipment"), you're o.k. with that level of quality.

You were quoting from someone else's posting Steve but I think you have put a false interpretation on it. Para-phrasing your words, my interpretation would be:-

"...as long as you + the gun is THE SAME AS as you alone could shoot (with theoretical "perfect equipment"), you're o.k. with that level of quality"

And before anyone asks, yes I am satisfied that to all intents and purposes my gun/ammunition will shoot perfect groups.

jbolyard · Post by **jbolyard** » Mon May 23, 2005 8:08 pm

Well! I am amazed that my question has sparked such a flurry of discussion. I have most surely enjoyed the reading interspersed with some good advice.

For those that may care - my take-away from all this is:
1) It's easier to add weight than take away (truer words were never typed - and this applies to most everything)
2) Buy quality (I was already in this corner)
3) Potentially look for used - patiently
4) Shooting is important enough to consider sale of blood :)

So - thank you to all who have posted.

Jay Bolyard in MI

utmarksmann · Post by **utmarksmann** » Wed May 25, 2005 7:40 am

To Levene/Swartz:

Any good match AP will print one hole groups when fired from a vice. This was formerlly a proof of gun/ammo combo being ok.

Before the advent of the absorbers, yes, but not anymore.

The recoil absorbing/compensating devices for AP (FWB/Steyr) are very simple constructions. Pistons, driven by the propelling compressed air, slide inside a tube. There is some variability of these devices, and the variability increases with milage, apparently.

A less than perfect "absorber" will still make the gun print one hole groups from a vice, but groups fired from a human hand will open up some.

Does anyone know of a method to test an absorber?

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