RESULTS==CAN Nitrogen be used in place of CA in Steyr Air

[Bijon]

Hello Everybody,
My name is Bijon and i am an airpistol shooter from India. My job involves long stays in the rural areas of India where I cannot find compressed air for my Steyr LP 10, although compressed nitrogen is readily available. I wanted to know if I can use N2 in place of compressed air ( air has 78% nitrogen) in my LP 10 without causing it any harm. I know i should get a pump, but since there are no authorised dealers and there is a ban on import of guns we have to deal with the black marketers. Getting a pump will be charged twice the real amount. Moreover shooters in my hometown who use all types or CA guns want to know this. Right now only few big cities have CA filling stations unlike N2 stations which are everywhere. So we have to send the scuba tanks aroung 1000 miles to get it filled which proves very costly in terms of transportations. I had mailed the office of Steyr but they never replied back.

I need to know this real fast. especially looking for comments from experienced people like warren, scott and others.

Thanking you
Kind Regards
Bijon

[GOVTMODEL]

In the USA, to aid in preventing an accidental connection of a cylinder to the wrong supply line, most cylinder manufacturers have utilized standardized gas-specific outlet valve schemes. For example, most manufactures use a common fitting for Oxygen that is different from the common fitting for Hydrogen. Nitrogen, Helium and other inert gases often have the same sized fitting because of their compatibility in most cases.

So I think it will depend on what system of fittings is used in your country.

Best wishes-

Richard

[F. Paul in Denver]

GEEZ Bijon - I'm no scientist but please be VERY careful.

Nitrogen may be a harmless substitute for compressed air but I would suggest you an opinion from the Steyr people before you try it or you could end up destroying a very fine gun. I'm sure a high quality gun like a Steyr is not an easy or inexpensive thing to replace in rural India. I'll bet replacing your body parts would be even more difficult.

Why not buy a hand pump?? It only takes about 10 minutes to refill a completely dead air cylinder. With a pump, you could make all the compressed air you wanted anytime and anyplace.

The pump will also give you a very good cardiovascular workout. I dont recommend the workout just before you shoot though :-]

Take care, be careful and lots of 10's to you.

F. Paul in Denver

[F. Paul in Denver]

My apolgies Bijon, I neglected to finish reading your post before making my suggestions. Paying twice the normal amount for a pump doesnt sound like too bad an idea though. I suppose it depends on your budget limitations. A good pump will last forever though with proper maintenance and you can take it everywhere.

Your situation reminds me of how much the rest of us take for granted. My hat is off to you for being so enthusiastic in spite of all the difficulty you face.


F. Paul

[Fred Mannis]

I have no direct experience with use of nitrogen, but I don't think it should be a problem. Is the compressed nitrogen dry? I would ask the supplier for a moisture specification and then contact Steyr, as Paul suggests.

Regards,
Fred

[dflast]

Check with Steyr of course, but I can't imagine pure nitrogen could be a problem: the compressed air the pistol is designed for is nearly 78% nitrogen as it is. The remainder is oxygen (about 21%,) argon (about 1%)and traces of dozens of other gasses. Eliminating the highly reactive oxygen can only be a benefit to seal and lubricant life (going the other way and filling with pure oxygen would likely be a disaster!) You'd want to fill with dry gas of course, but that's no different from filling with a scuba tank or pumping your own air.

-David

[pilkguns]

Nitrogen is absolutely the BEST propellent for compressed air guns. It has the same properties and no moisture concerns. I wish the manufactureres had used this instead of SCUBA air. A lot of instutitional organizations such as colleges used Nitrogen because of the larger tanks .

As mentioned before, you may have some problems with making fittings connect, and may have to make something yourself. but don't be afraid to use it all.

[Bill Poole]

....[rare]... unlike N2 stations [ filling stations] which are everywhere.

WHY are there N2 filling stations?

What consumer use does N2 have? (small business welding?) just curious...

in the semiconductor factory I work at, there is a Nitrogen tank 10m high and 3m diameter, but I have NO access to it at all.

what places am I likely to find an N2 filling station... I live in a desert 400 miles from the nearest drop of salt water and I can think of 4 scuba shops within 30 minutes drive.

If we in the US could fill a scuba tank with N2 for $5 maybe it would be worthwhile to have fittings made and paint the tank for N2 only.

any ideas?

Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/

[RobStubbs]

Nitrogen is used as a coolant (in liquid form) - we use it at work. In addition it's used a fair bit in the pharmaceutical industry, amongst I'm sure many others. We use it, as well as a coolant, as a source of compressed gas for some electrical equipment - presumably because it's fire retardent as well as a good compressor (?).

Rob.

[BadMOJO]

Good question! I've been asking the same thing since I began shooting with compressed air. I wonder if other gasses would expand at different rates thereby fluctuating the muzzle velosity. I also wonder if they react like compressed air in extreme temperature fluctuations (25-110 degrees F). Has anyone out there experimented with gasses like helium or nitrogen?

[Walter]

Race car drivers often use Nitrogen in their tires because it does not expand when temperatures increase.

Guinness uses Nitrogen in their carbonation formula because it does not stay in solution under pressure. This is how they get a good foam without high carbonation.

[Denis]

PILKGUNS,

Would a person who used Nitrogen (at 200 Bar max) in their compressed Air Steyr have any warranty claims resulting from its use fully covered?

[Spencer C]

Race car drivers often use Nitrogen in their tires because it does not expand when temperatures increase.

Wow! A gas that does not follow Charles's Law?

Spencer C

[Steve Swartz]

PV still equals nRT, it's just that the gas constant is smaller for nitrogen. The origianl poster should have said "expands less than air as temperature increases."

O.K., but we all knew that . . .

[Bijon]

Well India is a funny place........getting Nitrogen is easier than compressed air and 3 times cheaper too.......The dealer said that he would fill my scuba tank with Nitrogen with all the same settings........I am going to try it in a few days and post my reply on the outcome......Incase I donot reply in a week......Don't use nitrogen coz i have blown myself up and don't have fingers to type anymore


But on a serious note I think there should not be any problem and I will post my observation regarding if pellet velocity is same or if there is any notable difference.

Take care and thanks for pitching in with your suggestions
I appreciate it
Kind Regards
Bijon

[Guest]

I recall that a few years ago there were paintball folks that I knew who were using nitrogen in their paintball guns. Their reason was as stated above that it did not fluctuate as much as co2 thereby giving a more accurate and consistant result. I don't know if they still use it or not. What is a bar conpared to PSI?

[CraigE]

for us less scientific types...a bar equals one atmosphere of pressure. That is 14.1 psi (there may be more definitive explanations coming from others.

[Guest]

I recall that a few years ago there were paintball folks that I knew who were using nitrogen in their paintball guns. Their reason was as stated above that it did not fluctuate as much as co2 thereby giving a more accurate and consistant result.

Dear Guest:
Can this really be true? CO2 and compressed-air (= mostly compressed nitrogen) guns have substantially different mechanisms and I don't think it's possible just to fill one type with the other's propellant.

A CO2 gun operates at the vapor pressure of liquid CO2, self-regulating except for the big inherent change in vapor pressure with temperature: so long as there's liquid in the reservoir there's a more-or-less constant pressure available to push the pellets out.

Compressed-air guns do away with the "more-or-less" part: more consistent because they're doling out mechanically pressure-regulated doses of propellant from a much higher pressure reservoir, and pretty much immune to reservoir pressure variations (only down to the regulated pressure of course!) from temperature change or any other cause.

How would they have done the propellant swap? CO2 reservoirs are not designed to be safe at anything like typical PCP pressures & it's not clear that the seals or valves would stand up to the task, never mind extreme initial muzzle velocities and substantial pressure drops with use, compressed air or nitrogen starting at CO2 pressures would very quickly run out of gas with use barring a huge tank, and separate high-pressure bottle/regulators seem unsafe for rough-and-tumble activity.

-David

[John Marchant]

As with any pressurised gas, extreme care must be taken when transfering. As has been previously mentioned, it would be best to obtain "dry nitrogen" sometimes known as oxygen free. This is totally inert and should present no major problems to the seals etc. We use this grade of nitrogen regularly within the air conditioning trade. If you are able to have your scuba cyclinder filled, make sure that it is suitable labelled to prevent accidental mis-use.

[Bijon]

By all means DONOT use Compressed air in CO2 guns..........It is extremely dangerous and the seals of a CO2 cylinder will not be able to withstand the Ca pressure and blow up.......The best way to end your shooting career


Never mix Co2 and CA together..............Nitrogen and CA are of similiar nature and hence are compatible.

Take care

Bijon