Mens Rapid Fire pistol: Lifting the pistol

[PETE S]

The rule states that you must be in the ready position and then you ligt the pistol. Talking to one fellow at the range, he suggested that one essentially bends forward toward the target in the ready position. At the correct moment, the shooter would keep the arm and shoulder steady, and stand up straight to bring the pistol to the first target. Now I am not describing this well. But the point is that the body or torso moves, not the arm and shoulder to go from the Ready position to the target. The advantage was that you can align your sights, and lock your shoulder and wrist.

The more conventional thought is to stand straight, and lower the arm from the shoulder. Of course, the sights can be line up when the pistol is raised. But you can not see your sight alignment as you lower your arm.

What is the opinion of the brain trust?

Thanks in advance.
Pete

[David Levene]

Did the chap who told you about this technique actually demonstrate it.

If you can stand with the pistol on aim and then bend forward 40-45 degrees without falling over and still be able to see the targets turning then I am pretty impressed.

[deleted1]

I've tried to stay out of this and let others jump in however, here goes. The shooting position is similar to all other pistol shooting positions adapted to your own particular style or peculiarities. I assume a normal upright position and set my point of aim at the centre target. I then will swing my BODY to line up on target #1---at the command LOAD---I will lay down the gun and load the five rounds---grip the gun and then load and lock the gun and assume a ready position (I usually go through the motions of firing the five rounds, you have up to one minute to load and lock normally ) and then I will line up and sight on the #1 target to my right ( I am right handed )---at the command ATTENTION---the targets will EDGE or the Red lights will come on--- I will fix my aim on target #1---the next commands are THREE< TWO< ONE< START !!!! by the time the command START is given the gun must be at a 45 degree ready position. Within three seconds after the command START---the targets will either turn and FACE or the GREEN lights will come on---now the gun can be raised and you shoot Target #1, "swinging" your body precisely proceed to Target #2 fire---etc. etc until you have fired on all five targets. At no time before, during or after do I bend over to assume any other than an upright shooting position. I practise for two weeks with only two targets to get the LIFT and motion to the second target with the greatest accuracy and rapidity. Then and only then do I proceed to shooting the full string. The greatest amount of activity is dry-firing with an IPSC timer to get that first shot off---the biggest amount of muscular training is to try to keep the sights aligned during the lift, finding the target and "squeezing" the shot as well a moving (swiveling) your body to centre each target. The methods of target and sight pick-up are also demanding of much time and patience and a lot of ammo. You might want to get a copy of Yur' Yev's book on Competitive Shooting ( available from the NRA). You could devote a good portion of your life to mastering this skill---now with the new targets (Bye-Bye Big Black Bull)---and the new .22lr requirements it's an even tougher game IMHO. The 4 second phase with the recoil and the 1000g trigger is a flaming hound of hell. Hell, even the 6 second phase is tougher. Good Luck I am off to the range to practise for the NYS Empire State Game RF trials. Mebbe the 74 year old can make another regional team.

[Spencer C]

The rule states that you must be in the ready position and then you ligt the pistol. Talking to one fellow at the range, he suggested that one essentially bends forward toward the target in the ready position. At the correct moment, the shooter would keep the arm and shoulder steady, and stand up straight to bring the pistol to the first target. Now I am not describing this well. But the point is that the body or torso moves, not the arm and shoulder to go from the Ready position to the target. The advantage was that you can align your sights, and lock your shoulder and wrist.

The more conventional thought is to stand straight, and lower the arm from the shoulder. Of course, the sights can be line up when the pistol is raised. But you can not see your sight alignment as you lower your arm.

What is the opinion of the brain trust?

Thanks in advance.
Pete

In a galaxy far, far away (actually the 1960s) some top european RFP shooters used leather jackets that laced up like a corset, and held the arm in the shooting position - in effect the arm/pistol was forced down and the body bent to assume the ready position; when the targets faced the arm/pistol came up 'spring loaded'. There was no need t0o write special clothing rules (as in rifle) as shooters in 'normal' clothing could get the same scores...

Meanwhile, modern international thought is:
- the only bit that moves is the arm/pistol (think in terms of reducing the unsprung weight of a vehicle to improve the ride characteristics); with a bit of training/practice, the sights will come up aligned - provided they were aligned BEFORE the arm was lowered - not if they were aligned IN THE READY POSITION.
- the time to align the feet/body is after the loading; invariably the loading process will involve some affect to the overall body alignment.

Spencer C

[ColinC]

Only thing that worries me about leaning forward with the arm and shoulder locked is that the head must move before the first shot.

I was taught that is important to keep the noodle still because if you move it, all the fluid in the grey matter is still swirling for 2-3 seconds afterwards, which affects eyesight, depth of field etc.

For me if is far better to rely on muscle memory for your arm to bounce up to the point of aim. Bending at the waist just sounds like a pain in the back waiting to happen.

[RobStubbs]

I tend to agree with Colin and it's not something I'd fancy trying (I'd probably knock myself out on the bench ;-) ). I seriously doubt you can really align your sights. You cannot keep your head, neck, shoulders, arms and wrist etc all in exactly the correct alignment to be on perfect aim, and as David mentions how can you see the targets turn ?

Rob.

[Pär Hylander]

I have seen the (partly) bent torso techique at some competions i Europe used with succes. However, I think that it is a difficult technique to master because I thinkt it os difficult to only have the bending movement. Very easily you will also have a small rotatring movement in the torso which results in that you will have to make corrections because the sights will bo to the left och right.

IMO, "keep it simple" is the way to go. When "attention" lower the arm and pistol only by rotation in the shoulder joint. Do not move the torso and the head. Then when the target face, make the lift by also by only rotatation in the shoulder joint.

The same principle when moving from target to target. The rotation should be in the joint between the feets and legs. If the arm is moved in the shoulder joint, the head or hand must be tilted och rotated in order to compensate the changed angle front sight - sight - eye.