The whole focus of the USOC and USAS is olympic medals, because that is all the the public and sponsors care about. I suspect that the goal is to earn as many olympic quota slots as possible. We were unable to send dedicated free pistol shooters to Athens because we had no quota slots. USAS wants (needs) quota slots in all the Olympic sports. Anything else is nice, but doesn't help them get funding.
Just my (un)educated guess,
Steve T
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I feel your pain Stan, however Steve hit the nail on the head. Every qualifier including the Worlds will see the USAS maximize their efforts to get those Olympic spots. I hate to admit it, but I agree.
The real sad point is that it makes sense for another reason. There's no chance of winning "all" the medals anyway. If I'm not mistaken at the CAT and Pan Am Games no country can qualify more that two shooters per final. Imagine being third going into the finals of FP(your 570 is third behind a pair of 571s) and you don't get to shoot for the GOLD or SILVER?
Hold center
Alex
The real sad point is that it makes sense for another reason. There's no chance of winning "all" the medals anyway. If I'm not mistaken at the CAT and Pan Am Games no country can qualify more that two shooters per final. Imagine being third going into the finals of FP(your 570 is third behind a pair of 571s) and you don't get to shoot for the GOLD or SILVER?
Hold center
Alex
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Steve Swartz
IF the focus is truly on the olympic events, wouldn't some plan for developing a larger number of elite-near elite-emerging elite shooters make sense?
You know, increase competition and numbers at the 580+ level . . . by increasing the competition and numbers at the 570+ level . . . by increasing the competition and numbers at the 560+ level . . . etc.
O.K., in another thread in another forum, Mike Douglass responded that yes, USAS is alaready doing that by:
1) Conducting Master's Camps
2) Allowing shooters to train at the center
Is that enough to stimulate the development of shooters at the 550 moving to 560 moving to 570 moving to 580 levels?
Is there anything else that could be done to "bootstrap" some numbers and improvement in the performance of shooters at the emerging-near elite- elite levels?
Or is USAS doing enough?
I don't disagree with focusing on medals at all. But has USAS established the right path to get us from HERE to THERE?
Steve Swartz
You know, increase competition and numbers at the 580+ level . . . by increasing the competition and numbers at the 570+ level . . . by increasing the competition and numbers at the 560+ level . . . etc.
O.K., in another thread in another forum, Mike Douglass responded that yes, USAS is alaready doing that by:
1) Conducting Master's Camps
2) Allowing shooters to train at the center
Is that enough to stimulate the development of shooters at the 550 moving to 560 moving to 570 moving to 580 levels?
Is there anything else that could be done to "bootstrap" some numbers and improvement in the performance of shooters at the emerging-near elite- elite levels?
Or is USAS doing enough?
I don't disagree with focusing on medals at all. But has USAS established the right path to get us from HERE to THERE?
Steve Swartz
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Good lord...
USA Shooting is doing what they can with the resources they have. They govern the International shooting events for the US. In order to develop more 560 AP shooters to the next level, the 560 AP shooters need to train. This would also apply to the other events, not just AP.
Like I said before, USA Shooting cannot shoot the scores for competitors. It is the responsibilty of the shooter to train and put him/herself in the position where sending them up through the ranks is justified. USA cannot just pick random low level shooters and pour money into them. That's just plain stupid.
The bottom line is TRAINING. If someone is unwilling to post the required scores, that's on the shooter. DO NOT use USA Shooting as a scapegoat for one's inability to shoot International level scores or unwillingness to train. Going to a range a couple times a week and shooting a 60 shot match IS NOT TRAINING. Working through the shot process, breaking it down into simple components and refining it OVER and OVER again is TRAINING.
Also keep in mind. The current top shooters in the US do get a lot of benefits for their current position. Before people bad mouth or imply that they (Elite athletes) are getting more benefit from USA Shooting than you...ask yourself and answer honestly, "Have I sacrificed and put in as much effort as them". I am willing to bet the answer is no.
Mike Douglass
Like I said before, USA Shooting cannot shoot the scores for competitors. It is the responsibilty of the shooter to train and put him/herself in the position where sending them up through the ranks is justified. USA cannot just pick random low level shooters and pour money into them. That's just plain stupid.
The bottom line is TRAINING. If someone is unwilling to post the required scores, that's on the shooter. DO NOT use USA Shooting as a scapegoat for one's inability to shoot International level scores or unwillingness to train. Going to a range a couple times a week and shooting a 60 shot match IS NOT TRAINING. Working through the shot process, breaking it down into simple components and refining it OVER and OVER again is TRAINING.
Also keep in mind. The current top shooters in the US do get a lot of benefits for their current position. Before people bad mouth or imply that they (Elite athletes) are getting more benefit from USA Shooting than you...ask yourself and answer honestly, "Have I sacrificed and put in as much effort as them". I am willing to bet the answer is no.
Mike Douglass
Regarding USAS being a governing body, I agree they're charged with duty of being a governing body, they're just horrible derelict in their duties as a "governing body." They seem too focused on getting a few shooters to the Olympics. IMHO, that shouldn't be the focus of a governing body; rather, it should be the promotion and organizing of the sport for the benefit of all shooters within a nation.
We have a fundamental disagreement in philosophy. In order to have more 560 AP shooters, we need more shooters. The bigger the pool of competitors to draw from, the greater the likelihood you'll have a higher number of better shooters. This is truism recognized at all levels of other sports. Look at how high school and college sports are organized; schools are put in different divisions according to the populations of the schools contained in each division, with bigger schools placed in higher divisions. For a very rough analogy, I don't care how much money, effort and training you pour in to a Division III football team, they will NEVER be competitive against a top Division I team. Right now, with the US' level of participation, we're like a Division III team. Look at the pics that one of the Russian shooters posted on here of their local competitions; they're a Division I team.
Regarding USAS and training "random low level shooters," I'll go you one further; in an individual sport, like shooting, why should a governing body be responsible for training?
Regardless, the bottom line (to winning medals) is NOT just training! It's training coupled with natural ability. Training will only get you so far. To win medals, a certain amount of natural ability is required. The greater the pool of shooters to draw from, the greater the likelihood of discovering someone with the natural ability (that can be honed and refined through training). I'm sure you, and US team members have trained your butts off. You've sacrificed a lot. You've even moved out to Colorado to train. But the fact is, at least in the pistol events, no U.S. pistol shooter has won an Olympic medal for over 15 years. No U.S. pistol shooter has won Olympic gold for almost half a century. Pretty sad from a country with more firearms in civilian hands than any other place on Earth.
I refuse to believe the talent pool isn't out there; it just isn't being tapped. It is the governing body's principal duty to tap the talent pool by promoting and organizing the sport. Any focus on assembling/training a national team should be a secondary consideration.
We have a fundamental disagreement in philosophy. In order to have more 560 AP shooters, we need more shooters. The bigger the pool of competitors to draw from, the greater the likelihood you'll have a higher number of better shooters. This is truism recognized at all levels of other sports. Look at how high school and college sports are organized; schools are put in different divisions according to the populations of the schools contained in each division, with bigger schools placed in higher divisions. For a very rough analogy, I don't care how much money, effort and training you pour in to a Division III football team, they will NEVER be competitive against a top Division I team. Right now, with the US' level of participation, we're like a Division III team. Look at the pics that one of the Russian shooters posted on here of their local competitions; they're a Division I team.
Regarding USAS and training "random low level shooters," I'll go you one further; in an individual sport, like shooting, why should a governing body be responsible for training?
Regardless, the bottom line (to winning medals) is NOT just training! It's training coupled with natural ability. Training will only get you so far. To win medals, a certain amount of natural ability is required. The greater the pool of shooters to draw from, the greater the likelihood of discovering someone with the natural ability (that can be honed and refined through training). I'm sure you, and US team members have trained your butts off. You've sacrificed a lot. You've even moved out to Colorado to train. But the fact is, at least in the pistol events, no U.S. pistol shooter has won an Olympic medal for over 15 years. No U.S. pistol shooter has won Olympic gold for almost half a century. Pretty sad from a country with more firearms in civilian hands than any other place on Earth.
I refuse to believe the talent pool isn't out there; it just isn't being tapped. It is the governing body's principal duty to tap the talent pool by promoting and organizing the sport. Any focus on assembling/training a national team should be a secondary consideration.
Last edited by sparky on Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
you touched on the issue....No U.S. pistol shooter has won Olympic gold for almost half a century. Pretty sad from a country with more firearms in civilian hands than any other place on Earth.
I spent all day today at the Phoenix Gun Show.... it was FULL of people, probably 10's of thousands. and I doubt more than 4 or 5 of them could NAME an olympic shooter or an olympic event. I doubt more then 5% had ever shot a competition of any kind. But I bet well over half the people there had a hunting license and the majority could quote statistics all day long about their favorite .40/9mm/45 etc defence gun stopping power and mag capacity.
Here in the US, if you want to shoot, you go buy something or several somethings that go bang real loud and a case of Wolf ammo or a 10/22 anda coupla bricks and head to the desert and blast away at tin cans all day long.... or you get a hunting license and .327 Remchester ultra-squat-magnum and your choice of 47 different camo patterns and go hunt deer or elk every year. And the average middle class American guy has enough money to buy a few average guns and a case or four of 9mm every year even if he IS making payments on a bass boat and an F150.
What WE gotta finger out how to do is to get just a fraction of THEM to take up serious precision competition.
In OTHER countries if you WANT to shoot (or if you are going to shoot but didn't know you wanted to), you gotta join a club (or get selected to your school team), shoot the competitions THEY let you with the guns THEY loan you until you get enuf brownie points to either get your own gun license or your membership on the communist youth league national team. If you are allowed to buy your own gun your disposable income is only enough for 1 or 2 and you are permitted only the ones that work for an officailly approved international competition... so THAT is the one you practice with regularly.
SO you get very good at one event, or your license gets revoked.
So, in a sense we are a victim of our own success and freedom.
My $0.02
Poole
Interesting thoughts...
All of this is very interesting to me indeed. I have to agree with Bill in that the majority of Americans are so caught up in with the idea that they can own guns that they never "Master a gun". Shoot I have been there myself.
I only started shooting pistol about a year and a half ago with BE although I have a HEALTHY sampling of them. I have been shooting AP for only 3 weeks now. Week before last I shot a 545 practice score. Last week I shot a 568. Now is this natural ability? I don't know. I shot my first PTO this weekend and did not even break 500 (495) the first round and only shot a 507 the second round. Nerves? Probably.
I do know that I shoot at least 100 to 150 shots a day. And during the BE season it is not unusual for me to shoot 1000 or more rounds per week of 45 and .22. Has it paid off? I think so. My scores from July 04 to December 04 went up almost 400 points.
As far as the AP goes I am really disappointed in some of the scores I am seeing the US competitors posting. There are just not that many people out there shooting 570's or 80's. Personally I think a lot of that is due to people wanting it the easy and fast way. Lets face it, if you want to win Gold you have to practice, analize, practice, analize some more until it is automatic response mechanisim at work.
Now this is not to take anything away from you all, because I know there are some very good shooters out there and some of you are my friends. However, how bad do we really want IT? I think that is a good question we must all ask ourselves.
As far as someone putting money into training me goes, here is the deal. In the past year I have been approched by two branches of the military to shoot for them. I have turned both down because I have other obligations. What does this mean? It means that I have to pay my own way! Do I mind? NO! Will I be happy one day if I am selected to shoot for the US and they pay for my pellets/bullets? Of course. But, in the mean time I am going to keep buying them and shooting them every day.
I am still going to pay for a private coach that can put the pressure on me and help me analize the shot. I am still going to stick to an excercise and diet routine to keep myself physically in top shape. I am still going to prepare each day mentally and spiritually. All of this because I have the personal belief that if you are going to do something you should enjoy it. And for me to enjoy it I have to be at the top of the game. AND I realize that one does not get to the top over night. Often times it is a long hard struggle but when you reach the apex it is most delightful to see the view.
This is how I look at all of life. Personal, business, sports or whatever. It is time for us to step up to the plate and show the world that not only do we have the most guns in the hands of private citizens, but that we can use them to compete and be the best in the world.
I hope no one is offended by all this or thinks I am conceeded. I just think we can be the best am I for one am going to try.
NCIT
I only started shooting pistol about a year and a half ago with BE although I have a HEALTHY sampling of them. I have been shooting AP for only 3 weeks now. Week before last I shot a 545 practice score. Last week I shot a 568. Now is this natural ability? I don't know. I shot my first PTO this weekend and did not even break 500 (495) the first round and only shot a 507 the second round. Nerves? Probably.
I do know that I shoot at least 100 to 150 shots a day. And during the BE season it is not unusual for me to shoot 1000 or more rounds per week of 45 and .22. Has it paid off? I think so. My scores from July 04 to December 04 went up almost 400 points.
As far as the AP goes I am really disappointed in some of the scores I am seeing the US competitors posting. There are just not that many people out there shooting 570's or 80's. Personally I think a lot of that is due to people wanting it the easy and fast way. Lets face it, if you want to win Gold you have to practice, analize, practice, analize some more until it is automatic response mechanisim at work.
Now this is not to take anything away from you all, because I know there are some very good shooters out there and some of you are my friends. However, how bad do we really want IT? I think that is a good question we must all ask ourselves.
As far as someone putting money into training me goes, here is the deal. In the past year I have been approched by two branches of the military to shoot for them. I have turned both down because I have other obligations. What does this mean? It means that I have to pay my own way! Do I mind? NO! Will I be happy one day if I am selected to shoot for the US and they pay for my pellets/bullets? Of course. But, in the mean time I am going to keep buying them and shooting them every day.
I am still going to pay for a private coach that can put the pressure on me and help me analize the shot. I am still going to stick to an excercise and diet routine to keep myself physically in top shape. I am still going to prepare each day mentally and spiritually. All of this because I have the personal belief that if you are going to do something you should enjoy it. And for me to enjoy it I have to be at the top of the game. AND I realize that one does not get to the top over night. Often times it is a long hard struggle but when you reach the apex it is most delightful to see the view.
This is how I look at all of life. Personal, business, sports or whatever. It is time for us to step up to the plate and show the world that not only do we have the most guns in the hands of private citizens, but that we can use them to compete and be the best in the world.
I hope no one is offended by all this or thinks I am conceeded. I just think we can be the best am I for one am going to try.
NCIT