New "10m Five Shot Air Pistol" Events

[Luis Medina]

This past weekend I had to oportunity to compete in my first 10m Five Shot Air Pistol match. Two to be exact.

A- The 10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event and

B- The 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event.

All the participants used the same FWB C55P.

In review, I really enjoyed the course and pace of the two events. But to be honest I loved the feel of the repeating AP......5 pellets flying at the target(s) in less that 10 seconds....MAN!

Since then I've been looking at the C55P and Steyr LP50 but it seems they're not in stock with either Pilkguns or Nealjguns. In fact Nealjguns lists them as discontinued.

Being that these are relatively new events:

1- Has anyone out there participated in either and what did you think?

2- Are the .22 pistol events (standard, sport, rapid fire, etc) going to get phased out of ISSF events now that repeating AP are available? Think about it, less expensive smaller facilities to maintain.

3- How long before demand for these AP increases in the US to both bring the price down and have the distributors start importing them(again)?

4- Does Morini have a suitable AP in the drawing board with their signature E-trigger?

5- What's going on in Europe? Are you guys competing in these events yet?

I'm already contemplating building myself the 5 target setup(rapid fire) and buying one of the available Walther CO2 8 shot repeating pistols to start practicing at home. Perhaps the Nighthawk model since it sells for about $150 until the others become available.

Let me know what you think and I don't hessitate to try these new events if you ever get a chance.

Regards,

Luis

[Warren]

Just because we have trouble keeping up with demand doesn't mean we don't import them...

We should have another batch of LP50s within a week or two.

FWB phased out their C55P a couple of years ago. The only other true semi auto currently available is the Aeron B98. I think you'll find any of the 8-shot pistols a disappointment. They are really a double action revolver action; to shoot quickly you have a long hard trigger pull, not very helpful for match accuracy.

[CraigE]

Warren, does the LP50 come fitted for CO2 or only PCA? (as if I need another high quality toy! :-) Craig E

[F. Paul in Denver]

Luis,

I have a two year old LP50 I purchased from Pilk two years ago. I am thoroughly satisfied with the gun's performance in all of the air pistol disciplines including the 5 shot ones you mentioned. The gun has performed flawlessly since my purchase.

I think that waiting for the price to come down is ill advised. Despite its increased popularity, the LP50's price has not come down in the two years since my purchase. Additionally, you should consider the unfavorable trend in the exchange rate between the Euro and the USD which strongly suggests waiting will end up costing you even more the longer you wait.

As for the events themselves- they rock!

I have heard many people whose opinions I respect predict that the inclusion of these air events will pave the way for getting rid of the analagous powder gun events.

Somebody say it aint so !!!


F. Paul

[Warren]

Craig,

Steyr still offer all pistol models in CO2. Unfortunately they cost the same as pre-charged air... this becomes a problem if you ever want to sell it later, as the used market has devalued CO2 guns by around $150-200.

As much as we'd love to sell you a new gun, if you can find a pre-loved LP5 already in CO2 it would probably make more sense (or "cents" ;-) ).

[Steve Swartz]

Something will have to be done about the AP rapid fire soon.

Too easy to clean the event.

Expect rule changes soon.

Steve Swartz

[Tony c.]

I saw a picture of a Morini 5 shots AP a few months ago, I think its on this board. Haven't heard any words regarding when or if it ever will go on sale. May be our friends in Europe have more info?
Tony

[Luis Medina]

Warren,

Point taken on the 8 shot C02 pistols. Thanks for the input, I believe I've saved $150.

What do you think about the Aeron B98?

Steve,

Something will have to be done about the AP rapid fire soon.

Too easy to clean the event.

Expect rule changes soon.

You are correct. This past weekend we had one person clean the rapid fire with a perfect score of 40. For those unfamiliar with the event there is no scoring, you either hit the center black for one point or white for zero.

Paul,

Do you use your LP50 for the 60 shot event? Does it take more effort/time to load the magazine and insert it back? I would find it cumbersome to have to set the pistol down everytime to reload. I'm curious to find out if anyone is using any 5 shot AP for single shot.

[Bill Poole]

Don Nygord must have been impressed with the Aeron B98, he added it to his inventory.

Mrs Nygord was a Phoenix last weekend and she still has some Aeron's (or did friday)



Poole
http://www.nygord-precision.com/

[David Levene]

Something will have to be done about the AP rapid fire soon.

Too easy to clean the event.

Expect rule changes soon.

You are correct. This past weekend we had one person clean the rapid fire with a perfect score of 40. For those unfamiliar with the event there is no scoring, you either hit the center black for one point or white for zero.

Out of interest, what target system and hole size were you using.

I have seen several reported perfect scores only to find that people were using the "German Match" specification targets. As an example, the standard hole size on the Rika LP5 system is 59.5mm. You have to order and fit the additional ISSF plates for the 5 target match. Although this leaves a 59.5mm black, the hole size is only 30mm.

To put the difference into perspective, 59.5mm is the diameter of the complete black on a normal 10m AP target. 30mm is like bisecting the 9 ring line on the same target.

If people are achieving perfect scores using the correct hole sizes at 300mm centre to centre spacing then I am mightily impressed. There are very few people who could hold the 9 ring on a single AP target in 10 second strings let alone putting in the additional prblem of having to move the gun from target to target.

[RobStubbs]

I'd have to agree with David. I know some perfect scores were reported at one of the Canadian events last year, but the hole size was, as mentioned, almost twice the specified diameter. In the UK the 5 targets have been in use for perhaps a couple of years (semi regularly) and our top scores I think are in the high 20's out of 40.

As for will these two events ever take over the other 'rapid fire' type events, I personally doubt it. I could perhaps see air being used for all the events but in the same format as they are at present.

But I'm looking at it from a different angle I guess since we can only use 5 shot AP's in England anyway so I don't personally know what the events are like shot with 'real guns'.

Rob.

[Luis Medina]

David,

As an example, the standard hole size on the Rika LP5 system is 59.5mm. You have to order and fit the additional ISSF plates for the 5 target match. Although this leaves a 59.5mm black, the hole size is only 30mm.

To put the difference into perspective, 59.5mm is the diameter of the complete black on a normal 10m AP target. 30mm is like bisecting the 9 ring line on the same target.

I just realized we did not use regulation targets. After reading your posting and reviewing the ISSF rule book I have to say that the rules we're not followed. It's true, the black is the size of the normal 10 AP was used as the outer 59.5mm black. The part we all took for granted was the fact that there is an "additional" opening and the intent is to have FALLING targets the size of that smaller 30mm be the true gauge for scoring a hit or a miss. We scored a hit or a miss based on the larger black and there was no further provision for falling targets or a 30mm measurement. For the record the 9 ring is about 27.5mm.

I'm going to have to break the news to the shooter soon, as I believe there was an application for a national record being prepared to be sent to USAS.

[Luftrick]

It seems that the trend over the past 25 years is slowly doing away with centerfire and then rimfire events and going towards an all air ISSF competition model. 300m rifle hasn't been in the Olympics since Montreal '76, Running Deer went from centerfire, to Running Target with rimfire to Moving Target with air to nothing. How long will Rapid Fire, Center Fire and Standard hold out? I, for one, hope that they stick around. Not because I compete in them, but because they add some variety to the shooting sports that an all-air arrangement just wouldn't have.

[David Levene]

David,

As an example, the standard hole size on the Rika LP5 system is 59.5mm. You have to order and fit the additional ISSF plates for the 5 target match. Although this leaves a 59.5mm black, the hole size is only 30mm.

To put the difference into perspective, 59.5mm is the diameter of the complete black on a normal 10m AP target. 30mm is like bisecting the 9 ring line on the same target.

I just realized we did not use regulation targets. ......................... For the record the 9 ring is about 27.5mm.

Sorry to have been the bearer of bad tidings but it did sound a bit strange. Did you have falling plates or just black aiming marks. If the latter then you also wouldn't have had the instant shooter feedback which is such an important part of the event.

With regard to the size of the 9 ring, you are correct. That is why I said that a 30mm hole is "like bisecting the 9 ring line".

Having painted the "it's harder than you think" black side of the picture, I love the event. It's fun, exciting and a great spectator attraction when shot on the correct falling targets.

[David Levene]

300m rifle hasn't been in the Olympics since Montreal '76, Running Deer went from centerfire, to Running Target with rimfire to Moving Target with air to nothing. How long will Rapid Fire, Center Fire and Standard hold out?

Whilst Moving Target is no longer part of the Olympics, both 50m with .22LR and 10m with air are still ISSF events (Rule numbers beginning 10).
They may have been at some stage (I can check if you want) but neither Center Fire or Standard Pistol have been Olympic events for many years.

[JeffUIT]

Don Nygord must have been impressed with the Aeron B98, he added it to his inventory.

I purchased a B98 up at the Crosman match 3 years ago. It's got a gas leak that I cannot, for the life of me, track down. I've taken the whole thing apart, replaced the entire set of seals, yet there's nothing I can do to stop the CO2 from leaking once the cylinder is punctured.

Does anybody know of a repair shop for these guys? I spoke to Warren at Camp Perry 2 years ago, and he suggested that I try it alone (which I did, but got no place real fast) since there was nothing domestic. Heck, I'd love to trade up to an LP-5 (to match my LP-1), but have yet to find one that I can jump on.

[Warren]

It seems a gaggle of questions have arisen from this thread...

Jeff, you own a B96 if it's CO2 - the B98 is the later pre-charged air version. Top Gun Airguns in AZ have been importing them for some years, I'd try them for a cure for your leakage.

Luis, the Aeron repeaters are good guns for the money. In my limited experience with them they are reasonably reliable (about 95-98%). The B96s had a fairly basic ortho grip (similar to the TAU 7), it looks like they have improved the B98 grip. Triggers are okay, but not quite the level of sophistication of the Steyr. So I guess you're getting what you pay for.

Loading the LP5 or LP50 in single shot mode (with a single shot mag) is actually easier than loading a single shot match pistol. When fired, the mag indexes to the left exposing the pellet chamber. You simply push a pellet into the mag (still in the gun) and push it to the left. The air pressure having already cocked the gun for you. The reason you don't see so many of them used in the single shot match is the trigger has more roll on the second stage (or release) than most precision shooters like. Good for sustained or rapid fire, tough for slow fire unless you have a good, solid positive trigger release.

Tony, Morini mocked up a 5-shot a couple of years ago but have no immediate plans (as far as I know) of releasing a production repeater.

I know there are fears that IF the airgun 5-shot matches took off, the live fire matches would eventually be in jeopardy. When I lived in Australia that was my fear also, but it's all a matter of perspective. Air ranges are so easy to set up, and so much more parent-friendly for junior programs, I see it as a great opportunity to get more people involved in the pistol events, a stepping stone towards them shooting Standard, Center, Sport and Rapid.

[Warren]

since you push the mag to the RIGHT when loading the single shot mag.