For TOZ's amateurs

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:53 am

I don't know if it was there any information before my post... but nevertheless:

Officially, shooting society have real chances to get rebuilt TOZ 35 and new RFP .22 lr in coming year. But name will be, as I remember: "Khaidurov XXXX".

35's enhancement is carrying out now(!) by Khaidurov (himself).

RFP .22 lr = it's absolutely new concepts.

Also, as I've heard: .32 S&W is planned too.

http://www.khaidurov.ru/

Everything I can say from me: if company will be victorious over our russian laws - everything will be fine: and we'll see new guns.

sparky · Post by **sparky** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:39 am

Sounds very interesting! Please let us know if you find out anything more. Who is Khaidurov?

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:50 am

sparky wrote:Who is Khaidurov?

Khaidurov (with his assistant Razorenov) has designed:

TOZ-35(M)
KhR-64
IZh-KhR-30
IZh-KhR-31
KhR-79
KhR-82
KhRB-88
TOZ-36
TOZ-49

Where:
"Kh" - Khaidurov
"R" - Razorenov
IZh - "Izhevskiy Mehanicheskiy Zavod" (russian guns factory)
TOZ - "Tulskiy Orujeiniy Zavod" (another russian guns factory).

"IZh", "TOZ" - didn't design these pistols - they're just powerplants, factories which produced these pistols.

---
This summer, when my coach has told to Khaidurov about popularity of TOZ-35 through years: he was really shocked. He couldn't believe until he got a fax from us with statistics from one of WC.

Happy New Year

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:58 pm

ruig wrote:
sparky wrote:Who is Khaidurov?
Khaidurov (with his assistant Razorenov) has designed:

IZh-KhR-30

For those unfamiliar with this pistol's history, and just in case you had any doubts as to the brilliance of Khaidurov and (the late) Razoreneov, this is essentially what we know today as Feinwerkbau's AW93.
Ruig - if you can pass on to Mr Khaidurov via your coach that there are many ISSF shooters around the world interested in his website and his new developments.

Most of us recognise the brilliance of Russian firearms design, but many are wary of quality control problems and reliability of supply and support. If these problems could be solved, I feel that far greater sales would result.

In terms of the problems of dealing with Russian law (I have heard about the mass of business and tax laws that Russian industry has to deal with), perhaps someone could convince Khaidurov to "do a Morini" and shift production to Switzerland? :)

Bill Poole · Post by **Bill Poole** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:57 pm

how about production in the US? the exchange rate is very favorable right now.

Poole

Bill Poole · Post by **Bill Poole** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:58 pm

how about production in the US? the exchange rate is very favorable right now.

Poole

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:05 am

if you can pass on to Mr Khaidurov via your coach that there are many ISSF shooters around the world interested in his website and his new developments.

Or even his current designs. I know a number of people who would be more than interested in obtaining a TOZ-49 made in .32, but they seem to be nearly impossible to obtain even in their current 7.62 calibre. They seem to exist (like many TOZ and IZH products) simply as tantalising images on Toz's and Baikal's (IZH's) Russian websites.

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:27 am

what we know today as Feinwerkbau's AW93

Right.
New KhR was passed to FWB in 1993 (Khaidurov couldn't explain any details himself... it's a mystery for him too!)

I open you "little secret": AW-93 has not a "little detail"... original backoff system... Someone, who passed new pistol to FWB has "forgotten" about that new conception (GOD, thank You!)

Ruig - if you can pass on to Mr Khaidurov via your coach that there are many ISSF shooters around the world interested in his website and his new developments.

We talked with Mr. Khaidurov a half month ago: he was informed about demands. Of course he already knows about new ISSF RFP rules... and his desire is to produce .22 lr RFP with {superior system (no further comments)} (since any compensators, muzzle brakes are already forbidden).

...but many are wary of quality control problems and reliability of supply and support. If these problems could be solved, I feel that far greater sales would result.

I'm not satisfied with quality too (especially IZh-35/34). When I take my Steyr - I feel like that every part was made with love.
About TOZ-35... yeah, I can't say that it's ideally made... but better then IZh-35/34. When You place well made grip - it looks very pretty.
We haven't TOZ's tech. support here too (production was stopped about 15 years ago). Everything we have here: hundreds of TOZ in storehouse. (when I have broken part - I just go there and take off that part)

In terms of the problems of dealing with Russian law (I have heard about the mass of business and tax laws that Russian industry has to deal with), perhaps someone could convince Khaidurov to "do a Morini" and shift production to Switzerland? :)

Arms' Laws are really awful. No area for really free arms-business.
I've crossed my fingers for Khaidurov Inc.

To say truth: I wondered too: why didn't he move somewhere in the West?
I tried to offer idea about collaboration with foreign arms factory, but one man said to me that this offer can bring him resentment (patriot?).

My own opinion: it's no time for partiotism now. Shooting communty can really lose really good sport arms. Khaidurov is 79 now. We haven't time for patriotism,... for battle with out Laws... I think, His name is already written with gold together with Cesare Morini.

people who would be more than interested in obtaining a TOZ-49 made in .32

Yes, as I wrote: .32 S&W is planned too. As .32 S&W is popular cal.
Drafts on paper are ready... But first pistols will be for RFP and rebuilt TOZ-35.

dhurt · Post by **dhurt** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:31 pm

Thanks Ruig for all your useful information on Russian arms and ammo. It is very interesting to hear from shooters around the world and get their perspective and insight. This internet thing is really great when it lets shooting brethren from around the world unite.

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:17 pm

dhurt wrote:Thanks Ruig for all your useful information on Russian arms and ammo. It is very interesting to hear from shooters around the world and get their perspective and insight. This internet thing is really great when it lets shooting brethren from around the world unite.

Thank You too!
We're ALL people, and we need in communication. Internet helps us.
I'm really delighted with Your Laws: it's so cool... coming home after work, take OWN FP... and have some dry-fire :-) ... or surfing inet... clicking mouse "buy!" on pistols in e-shops :-)... freedom!

Sincerely,
Igor

sparky · Post by **sparky** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:12 pm

Well heck, come on over! Plenty of space here in Texas.

Walter · Post by **Walter** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:17 pm

ruig wrote:
I open you "little secret": AW-93 has not a "little detail"... original backoff system... Someone, who passed new pistol to FWB has "forgotten" about that new conception (GOD, thank You!)

Can you give details?

fsmte · Post by **fsmte** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:21 pm

Hello
Ruig inform that TOZ is has 15 years with stop production! But it has offers of new TOZ in:

http://www.nygord-precision.com/

http://www.schuetzenwelt.de/shop/1/waff ... ll_toz_35/

http://www.gehmann.com/english_final/sm ... istols.php

http://www.allermann.de/shop/index-shop.html

how to explain great supply?

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:26 am

it is my understanding that most new Toz's still for sale were built 10+ years ago. There are also many used ones on the market selling for less than a new one and some people would rather have an older one. I have heard that some of the older ones are better. I am not sure if that is true. It is not like they wear out.

Also it is not like there are a ton of people getting into free pistol and buying up all the Toz's. I have one and so does my Dad. I will get his and his parts when he is done with it. He never shoots it so it will be in perfect condition when I get it.

A lot of people are buying Morini's also.

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:45 am

It's possible in case the TOZ factory is liar (I've called them, ...Tula city... TOZ factory... = they told me that TOZ-35's production is stopped many years ago).

Really, it's possible to find new(!) TOZ-35, but made in 1986-1990 (last wave of production).
My TOZ-35M was made in 1987. I've taken it from storehouse a year ago... it was absolutely new... it was greased with lubricant (every detail... barrel, case,... everything) and wrapped in special tracing paper. New standart nut-wooden blank grip was attached to pistol.
Passport's groups are: [20][18][19][23][16][18] mm

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:28 pm

Last news:
Manufacture's powers: ready.
Release date: depends on "Agency of Industry", if Licence will be given in first Quarter'05 - then first preproduction copies will be in sportsmen hands (for test) in second Quarter'05.

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:34 pm

Walter wrote:
ruig wrote:
I open you "little secret": AW-93 has not a "little detail"... original backoff system... Someone, who passed new pistol to FWB has "forgotten" about that new conception (GOD, thank You!)
Can you give details?

Sorry: no comments.
Ethics & morality.

fsmte · Post by **fsmte** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:05 pm

for as much interest for TOZ?
1- during years (20 or more) Hämmerli it only supplied a trustworthy equipment.
2- results of Soviets and others of the communist block in world-wide and olimpics championships.
3- this modality is very restricted and it does not have you manufacture interested in investing when sales has few. to
4-Walther abandoned its electronic model.
5- Morini did not make nothing of success with model 80.
6- Steyr failed with its recent FP (few sales? the dry one does not have dry firing! nonsense?
7- Pardini did not convince great shooters, as Dumoulin that only used it in 2002 and that later it turned around to use its old MC-55.
8- DiDonna left the TOZ and... never more it made 560. Today Morini uses, but...
9- Thus, we have only the TOZ and the current Morini 84E that it obtains high results.
10- TOZ has not become has 10 years more than, has only the Morini 84E in the market that attracts the elite shooters.
11- GPG of old Pardini never was wide used. in the truth little.
12- for pikling any free pistol is exaggerated expensive. the use will be little and sales also.
13- weapon does not gain championships, sales will be small. Schumann made pardini to demand much more that the proper weapon valley, only because he is multichampion. Skanaker was promotional of Sako, Hämmerli, Morini and Lapua. all demand well, therefore the marketing is good.
14- Morini sales well because Nestruev gains many tests world-wide WC.
if it used another one?

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:25 am

fsmte wrote: 8- DiDonna left the TOZ and... never more it made 560. Today Morini uses, but...

13 - ....

It's obvious, that everyone thinks that way: "Wow! That multichampion shoots with Xxxxxx! Wow! I must have the same Xxxxxx to shoot better!"

Real example: Mr.Nestruev has shooted with "Benelli Kite" in couple of competitions. He did high result. He won medals.
After one week - almost every advanced shooter had thoughts: "May be should I try it?". And some of them did it: Kiriakov (BUL) for example. Also, I've seen some Benelli'es in inner-russian championships.
Unfortunately, some think that they can do the same... but, almost, no one knows Mr. Nestruev personally... I don't know him too... just some letters via e-mail.
Let's suppose, that tomorrow Nestruev or Wang will win WC/WCH/OG with old FWB mod. 65 or TAU-7! And??? Will everyone want to try it?

I don't really know... I can suppose only... that there was a contract Benelli/Mr.Nestruev to attract more customers. Even more so, he had a jacket Benelli on ECH (Sweden)

fsmte · Post by **fsmte** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:44 am

Ruig (RUssia Igor)?
good you for participating of this forum brings informers of the sport in Russia few to know what it is transferred there.
I talked with Piddubinin (UKR) in 2002, but little to know of that it happens in former-Soviet occidental we gives to much attention the weapon and the ammunition seems that shooting Russians only think about tecnica of shooter therefore, is more winning seems to be equal orientals CHN, KOR, etc. therefore, much question on weapon and the ammunition and little on technique to sharpen of disable.
example of this: Pyzhianov is record man in air pistol since 1989 used FWB model 2, today is obsolete, no body uses. Melentiev used what in OG/1980 when it established the record of 581 in FP? nobody knows the certainty, but today he is obsolete. Nygord was champion world-wide of air pistol with FWB65!
then, because they no body equals? it is because gun/ammo does not earn, who earns is shooting.
Nestruev, Wang and others, probably would earn with any weapon but occidental we it does not want more FWB 65!

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