I was wondering what the general opinions were about the Pardini Free Pistol, and how it stacks up with/against the fabled TOZ.
At this point, the choices are between a used K22 and a used TOZ, so please, while I appreciate anecdotes as much as the next shooter, I don't care to hear about how the Morini, etc is head and shoulders above.
Thanks in advance!
--Tony
Free Pistol: Pardini v. TOZ
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Guest
strictly between the two you have named, the Toz, no other choice. the reality is you are comparing a gun used around the by many people, to a newer gun that has never been popular and has had a cloudy reptuation among those few users. Perhaps, you could analyze it by saying the Toz was a VW beetle and the K22 was a Yugo
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TonyC
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LB in Texas
toz VS K22
I bought the K22 against nygords advise last year. I have also bought a used Toz. I have shot the K22 as much or more than the Toz. My experiance so far is, I love the quality of the K22 the look and the adjustability But am not able to produce the consistant result scores that I can produce with the Toz. From my Point of view the K22 is very sensitive with followthrough, If you execute the shot well, it will be a ten every time, but if not, the shot will be punishing,maybe a 5, while the same shot would be a 8 with the TOZ not so punishing. So when nationals or selections are at stake the TOZ is in the travel box. I have analized all the variables,weight, center of gravity and accuracy and all seem to be close but still the bottom line is, the Toz is less sensitive to shot execution. I have not given up and will continue shooting both, hopeing my techniqe will improve and the K22 will become my primary.
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Steve Swartz
TonyC:
Hmm not sure what you mean by the "great" or "sterling" reputation you say the Toz has.
It is true the Toz is perhaps the most widely used free pistol in competition over the years; particularly if you use longer and longer time periods "ago."
Perhaps "Guests" remark about VW vs. Yugo is more accurate.
If yoiu want a Toz, then by all means buy one . . . but have realistic expectations of the nature (and "peculiarities") of the gun.
Oh yeah, and stock up on Blue Loc-Tite . . . kind of like reminding a Harley owner to buy a pick up truck.
Steve Swartz
Hmm not sure what you mean by the "great" or "sterling" reputation you say the Toz has.
It is true the Toz is perhaps the most widely used free pistol in competition over the years; particularly if you use longer and longer time periods "ago."
Perhaps "Guests" remark about VW vs. Yugo is more accurate.
If yoiu want a Toz, then by all means buy one . . . but have realistic expectations of the nature (and "peculiarities") of the gun.
Oh yeah, and stock up on Blue Loc-Tite . . . kind of like reminding a Harley owner to buy a pick up truck.
Steve Swartz
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TonyC
Why was Don against you buying the K22?
Was it simply this thing that I've heard...as you wrote, when the shot is good, it's a ten, when it's not...well...better to have the Toz?
Steve--all I meant was that almost everyone seems to either be shooting or have shot a Toz.
Records have been set with them, matches and medals won with them. Simple.
Thanks!
Was it simply this thing that I've heard...as you wrote, when the shot is good, it's a ten, when it's not...well...better to have the Toz?
Steve--all I meant was that almost everyone seems to either be shooting or have shot a Toz.
Records have been set with them, matches and medals won with them. Simple.
Thanks!
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LB Texas
K22 vs Toz
He told me that the Toz was a proven gun, by records, repeatedly, and is very forgiving, the K22 is not so forgiving . For a person who is new to the sport I would also recomend the Toz.
Dont get me wrong I love my K22 and will continue shooting it. The highest scores I have shot has been with the Pardini (530s)although I can have a bad day When it is all I can do to stay over 500 a thirty point spread can really hurt the average. On the other hand the Toz is a consistant performer and can stay at my average give or take 5 points,10 point sread, no matter what the conditions.
Both weapons have given me no reliability problems, so far, 1-200 rounds per week average for a year and a half. E-mail direct if you have any more specifics questions At lealbarton.tx@netzero.net
Dont get me wrong I love my K22 and will continue shooting it. The highest scores I have shot has been with the Pardini (530s)although I can have a bad day When it is all I can do to stay over 500 a thirty point spread can really hurt the average. On the other hand the Toz is a consistant performer and can stay at my average give or take 5 points,10 point sread, no matter what the conditions.
Both weapons have given me no reliability problems, so far, 1-200 rounds per week average for a year and a half. E-mail direct if you have any more specifics questions At lealbarton.tx@netzero.net
Really not sure what all that's about Steve. I'm sure there are good Tozs and bad Tozs, Russian quality control being what it is. But making generalities like that?Steve Swartz wrote:TonyC:
If yoiu want a Toz, then by all means buy one . . . but have realistic expectations of the nature (and "peculiarities") of the gun.
Oh yeah, and stock up on Blue Loc-Tite . . . kind of like reminding a Harley owner to buy a pick up truck.
Steve Swartz
I bought my Toz near-new in 1978. It hasn't seen a touch of Loc-Tite, blue or otherwise. Of course I lost a screw that holds the rear sight plate in place, my fault, and first wired then glued it in place. I have also gone through 2 or 3 firing pin springs before I learned how to re-grind the firing pin (now even the old "weak" springs still work fine).
When I started shooting Toz was considered a poor man's Hammerli. Now those old Hammerlis are mostly dead and buried, and the Toz still figures prominently in world class competition THIRTY years later. Even the legendary Hammerli 208 does not have quite that track record.
Every gun has a "nature" and "peculiarities". The Toz has a forgiving nature. Of course the factory grips are monumentally awful, but Morini grips fix this. I know later Toz 35Ms don't have the reputation for fit and finish.... I do resent the Harley reference. Don't you know the Russians made a Ural motorcycle loosely based on an early BMW? Now THAT would be more of a parallel. It even has enough torque to tow your pick up truck when IT breaks down... if they are so unreliable, why are they still being used?
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Dave Coraopolis CIPT
Toz vs. Pardini
I have used Hammerli 120, 150, 160; Pardini PGP 75, recently a TOZ and a S&W Model 41 (old one with light trigger) and am sad to say that I shot some of my best scores with the S&W (541). Started the long march with free pistols and can't match the old model 41 scores.
I found the Hammerlis to be excuisitely machined and hard to manage, The Pardini with a Nygord carved grip to be very comfortable but fussy about follow through and the TOZ to feel more like a conventional gun in that it is more forgiving.
I am having TOZ trouble. It strikes the cartridge very close to the edge of the rim and misfires about 5% of the time. The amount of error is extremely small, but just enough to miss ignition of some of the match ammo. The only regrinding that would seem to be right would be to "flatten" the tip so that the tip has a greater cross section of impact. Unfortunately that would also mean more firing pin travel and maybe insufficient force to detonate the cartridge primer.
Any help out there?
Dave P..............................
I found the Hammerlis to be excuisitely machined and hard to manage, The Pardini with a Nygord carved grip to be very comfortable but fussy about follow through and the TOZ to feel more like a conventional gun in that it is more forgiving.
I am having TOZ trouble. It strikes the cartridge very close to the edge of the rim and misfires about 5% of the time. The amount of error is extremely small, but just enough to miss ignition of some of the match ammo. The only regrinding that would seem to be right would be to "flatten" the tip so that the tip has a greater cross section of impact. Unfortunately that would also mean more firing pin travel and maybe insufficient force to detonate the cartridge primer.
Any help out there?
Dave P..............................
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Guest
Free pistol score , S&W M 41.
You got me there, Dave Coraopolis CIPT. Your score of 541 in 60 shots free pistol at 50 metres is remarkable if fired during a registered competition. If at training,- still very good.
Until now I was just a litle bit proud of my score of 523 fired in a national competition with a Haemmerli 208 back in the 1970s.
I can regularly beat that with MU 55. But not with my Pardini .22 auto.
You have got a very steady hand, Dave C.
I have been told, that back in the 60s the US freepistol record score of about 555 was fired with a (customized?) H & R .22 revolver. Can anyone please bring more info on this topic?
Until now I was just a litle bit proud of my score of 523 fired in a national competition with a Haemmerli 208 back in the 1970s.
I can regularly beat that with MU 55. But not with my Pardini .22 auto.
You have got a very steady hand, Dave C.
I have been told, that back in the 60s the US freepistol record score of about 555 was fired with a (customized?) H & R .22 revolver. Can anyone please bring more info on this topic?
H&R, etc
Guest,
Could you be thinking of the H&R single-shot pistols which, while they looked like revolvers, were the free pistols of choice for early US Olympic shooters. I believe they dominated the 1904 Olympics with those pistols, if my USRA newsletter is correct.
And, on a side note: Dave C does have a very steady hand.
Could you be thinking of the H&R single-shot pistols which, while they looked like revolvers, were the free pistols of choice for early US Olympic shooters. I believe they dominated the 1904 Olympics with those pistols, if my USRA newsletter is correct.
And, on a side note: Dave C does have a very steady hand.
Hello!
Everyone here refers to abstract concept "forgiving TOZ".
But no one asks "why?".
Why?
- TOZ... not TOZ..., viz its great gunsmith & inventor - Khaidurov (he has approx. 50 Patents for Inventions in nine countries, he's 8 Certificates of Recognition). He has found original balance, original point of gravitation... Every his pistol - is legend (RFP, FP, BBP)!
Its original balance is suitable for everyone. It's universal pistol.
BUT I don't say "it's best". If shooter has special, extra-sensitivity, super-hand&body steadiness: it's better to choose Morini 84E. But if haven't particular qualities mentioned above and you'll shoot Morini (or its russian "grandfather" MC-55-1): in many cases it'll be failure: Yeah, you'll get really small group of shots but with distant separate shots. With TOZ we can allow us to relax and shoot 8, 9, 10.... with Morini never: if any relaxation will take place - get 7, 6,....
Everyone here refers to abstract concept "forgiving TOZ".
But no one asks "why?".
Why?
- TOZ... not TOZ..., viz its great gunsmith & inventor - Khaidurov (he has approx. 50 Patents for Inventions in nine countries, he's 8 Certificates of Recognition). He has found original balance, original point of gravitation... Every his pistol - is legend (RFP, FP, BBP)!
Its original balance is suitable for everyone. It's universal pistol.
BUT I don't say "it's best". If shooter has special, extra-sensitivity, super-hand&body steadiness: it's better to choose Morini 84E. But if haven't particular qualities mentioned above and you'll shoot Morini (or its russian "grandfather" MC-55-1): in many cases it'll be failure: Yeah, you'll get really small group of shots but with distant separate shots. With TOZ we can allow us to relax and shoot 8, 9, 10.... with Morini never: if any relaxation will take place - get 7, 6,....
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Steve Swartz
Ruig:
You ask the question again: "Why is the Toz so 'forgiving'?"
And your answer is . . . the designer has won design medals? The pistol is popular?
I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the premise that the Toz is more "forgiving."
I am asking Why- what is it about hte Toz that would make it more "forgiving?"
- Faster Lock Time?
No, not a factor; and not the fastest out there in any case
- Lower boreline?
Perhaps, but then we must argue how the lower boreline would cause this to be so. Haven't heard the argument yet.
- More accurate?
No.
- Betterr sights?
No.
Okay, what then? What inherent feature of the Toz (not to be confused with external features, like our warm feelings for it, or affordability and market share, or accolades from engineers) makes it more "Forgiving?"
And while we're at it, anyone want to explain to me exactly what "Forgiving" means in this case?
I have heard it defined as "When I shoot a 7 with gun X it ends up being a 9 with a Toz" or "When I make a mistake the magnitude of the mistake is reduced by the Toz" or some variation . . .
Think about it.
Steve Swartz
You ask the question again: "Why is the Toz so 'forgiving'?"
And your answer is . . . the designer has won design medals? The pistol is popular?
I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the premise that the Toz is more "forgiving."
I am asking Why- what is it about hte Toz that would make it more "forgiving?"
- Faster Lock Time?
No, not a factor; and not the fastest out there in any case
- Lower boreline?
Perhaps, but then we must argue how the lower boreline would cause this to be so. Haven't heard the argument yet.
- More accurate?
No.
- Betterr sights?
No.
Okay, what then? What inherent feature of the Toz (not to be confused with external features, like our warm feelings for it, or affordability and market share, or accolades from engineers) makes it more "Forgiving?"
And while we're at it, anyone want to explain to me exactly what "Forgiving" means in this case?
I have heard it defined as "When I shoot a 7 with gun X it ends up being a 9 with a Toz" or "When I make a mistake the magnitude of the mistake is reduced by the Toz" or some variation . . .
Think about it.
Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
Oops sorry forgot to include
- Ergonomics?
Could be a factor for mechanical systems, particularly trigger pad adjustability (which I did like a lot better than Morini, Hammerli adjustments)
- Internal shock profile
Could be a factor for mechanical systems; has anyone actually tested this?
The argument with the trigger adjustability makes sense because you could (theoretically at least) minimize the offset created when the sear releases "all that trigger force."
But this provides no advantage over a FP with a preoperly designed electronic trigger, which doesn't have that force release problem int eh first place.
The argument with the "force imbalance" certainly makes sense over other mechanical designs employing swinging hammers . . . but again, not when stacked up against properly designed electronic triggers/electromechanical fire control systems.
Maybe the Toz has a reputation for being more forgiving when compared to other mechaincal fire control systems with less adjustable triggers?
However, these two arguments don't explain why the Toz would be considered more "forgiving" than a properly designed electronic/electromenchanical system . . .
Steve Swartz
- Ergonomics?
Could be a factor for mechanical systems, particularly trigger pad adjustability (which I did like a lot better than Morini, Hammerli adjustments)
- Internal shock profile
Could be a factor for mechanical systems; has anyone actually tested this?
The argument with the trigger adjustability makes sense because you could (theoretically at least) minimize the offset created when the sear releases "all that trigger force."
But this provides no advantage over a FP with a preoperly designed electronic trigger, which doesn't have that force release problem int eh first place.
The argument with the "force imbalance" certainly makes sense over other mechanical designs employing swinging hammers . . . but again, not when stacked up against properly designed electronic triggers/electromechanical fire control systems.
Maybe the Toz has a reputation for being more forgiving when compared to other mechaincal fire control systems with less adjustable triggers?
However, these two arguments don't explain why the Toz would be considered more "forgiving" than a properly designed electronic/electromenchanical system . . .
Steve Swartz
This certainly wandered far afield from the original question. To wander a bit further - isn't it possible / probable / inevitable that unknown and likely unknowable subjective effects are what we are calling forgiveness? I relate it to my absolute inability to use a deep sub-6 hold despite other shooters' great success with it. Confidence is certainly one aspect, but beyond that I doubt the "metrics" exist.
I guess I've had a hard time understanding why this bugs you so much Steve. But I'm not at all analytical about shooting in the way you are; if something works I don't have the need to analyze why it works. Not to any great extent anyway.
Maybe we should broaden how a Toz performs, instead of falling back on the old "forgiving" term.
First, it's a specific design that obviously does not perform best for every shooter on the line. People are not made the same, and I know there are some shooters who have disliked the balance and feel of the Toz. They would appear to be in the minority, but it's important to concede this.
Most importantly, it may be forgiving - in that it punishes loose shots less than most other FPs, BUT it is also harder to shoot tens. At the time I shot a Morini (about 8 years ago) I found I shot the same scores for the most part. But a loose shot would be a snow bunny. I would hit twice as many tens with the Morini, a good shot was a very good shot. The reason I stayed with the Toz was because when I was most nervous, ie in the bigger matches, I could not control my shot process to the same extent, and performed better with the Toz. On a bad day I'd drop 10 points from practice scores in a big match. With the Morini I'd drop 20-30. Doubtless had my skill level increased I would have been able to overcome this, and I certainly look forward to the day I'll be capable of using a Morini to its potential (which is possibly better than the Toz's potential).
One characteristic that has not been mentioned is sight radius. The Toz has over 2 inches less sight radius than the Morini in standard trim. Think about it - a more (apparently) stable sight picture leads to more positive trigger control, leads to more consistent shot release. It may be harder to discern a 10, but makes for less tendency to overhold, waiting for the perfect picture.
I can say that shooting a junior LP@ for the past year or more has helped me in Air Pistol - purely because I have NO match fitness and very little strength from not actively shooting in 5 years. The shorter sight radius has given me more confidence to get the shot away, thus I feel it is "more forgiving" - and I'm shooting much better scores than I'm capable with a long pistol. Obviously it's also harder to shoot tens, but this is more than offset by fewer 8s (or worse).
Honestly I don't know if you can define what makes the Toz behave as it does. If you could, wouldn't gun design be easy?
Maybe we should broaden how a Toz performs, instead of falling back on the old "forgiving" term.
First, it's a specific design that obviously does not perform best for every shooter on the line. People are not made the same, and I know there are some shooters who have disliked the balance and feel of the Toz. They would appear to be in the minority, but it's important to concede this.
Most importantly, it may be forgiving - in that it punishes loose shots less than most other FPs, BUT it is also harder to shoot tens. At the time I shot a Morini (about 8 years ago) I found I shot the same scores for the most part. But a loose shot would be a snow bunny. I would hit twice as many tens with the Morini, a good shot was a very good shot. The reason I stayed with the Toz was because when I was most nervous, ie in the bigger matches, I could not control my shot process to the same extent, and performed better with the Toz. On a bad day I'd drop 10 points from practice scores in a big match. With the Morini I'd drop 20-30. Doubtless had my skill level increased I would have been able to overcome this, and I certainly look forward to the day I'll be capable of using a Morini to its potential (which is possibly better than the Toz's potential).
One characteristic that has not been mentioned is sight radius. The Toz has over 2 inches less sight radius than the Morini in standard trim. Think about it - a more (apparently) stable sight picture leads to more positive trigger control, leads to more consistent shot release. It may be harder to discern a 10, but makes for less tendency to overhold, waiting for the perfect picture.
I can say that shooting a junior LP@ for the past year or more has helped me in Air Pistol - purely because I have NO match fitness and very little strength from not actively shooting in 5 years. The shorter sight radius has given me more confidence to get the shot away, thus I feel it is "more forgiving" - and I'm shooting much better scores than I'm capable with a long pistol. Obviously it's also harder to shoot tens, but this is more than offset by fewer 8s (or worse).
Honestly I don't know if you can define what makes the Toz behave as it does. If you could, wouldn't gun design be easy?
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Guest
It certainly seems true that the "properly designed electronic" Morini is supplanting TOZ in the realm of the elite shooter. We should note though that this does not address the quality of "forgiving" at all, an issue that is maybe not so significant at the elite level, where the incidence of perfectly executed shots is considerably higher I think than at (most of) ours.The argument with the "force imbalance" certainly makes sense over other mechanical designs employing swinging hammers . . . but again, not when stacked up against properly designed electronic triggers/electromechanical fire control systems.
Maybe the Toz has a reputation for being more forgiving when compared to other mechaincal fire control systems with less adjustable triggers?
However, these two arguments don't explain why the Toz would be considered more "forgiving" than a properly designed electronic/electromenchanical system . . .
Steve Swartz
A few technical quibbles with Steve's remarks:
The ergonomics of the TOZ trigger include considerable free after-travel, which at FP trigger weights may be an advantage for follow-through: different from the no-travel elecronic release, and not neccessarily worse.
The mechanical distinction of the TOZ is not just in the short-impulse firing pin, but also the train of motions from the trigger shoe to the sear. The equally short-impulse Hammerli 150/160 range doesn't appear to be as "forgiving."
also:
Many of the elite Morini shooters are using the available optional compensators, which adds an "apples-and oranges" dimension to any comparison of trigger and mechanical qualities re real-world scores.
I'm fascinated with the notion that "new" and "more technologically advanced" are necessarily better than what came before. Why should a "properly designed electronic/electromechanical system" outperform a strictly mechanical one? After 30 years, the TOZ has not in fact been obsoleted by what's come after. Let's face it, the bottom line is that lots of us simply find the TOZ easier to shoot than other FP. Whether I or anyone else on this board can fully understand and explain that as lay engineers doesn't make it untrue.
-D
Steve,
I take my hat off!
---
Also, I want to underline some from Warren's:
loose shot would be a snow bunny LOL :-))))
Sirs, TOZ and Morini cannot be compared: they're different generations (I'm about technologies). TOZ - is alive legend... our history... It's real sensation that such "grandfather" is still fighting for a place under the sun. No comments.
P.S. I know many young russian shooters (16-19 years old)... everything they have is TOZ (Morini is too high priced for our living level and for our wages here, in russia). Believe me: on inner-Russian competitions here's very hot concours. Youth do 530-550 without any problem.
For example (as proof):
http://www.shooting.newmail.ru/Rezult/C ... 03mp6.html
or
http://www.shooting.newmail.ru/Rezult/M ... 04mp6.html
Who does ask? Did I? Hm... I supposed that I've answered on my own questuion: "ORIGINAL, SUPERIOR, ANY-USUAL-SHOOTER-COMPATIBLE BALANCE"You ask the question again...
Absolutely right!Oops sorry forgot to include - Ergonomics?
I take my hat off!
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Also, I want to underline some from Warren's:
1) People are not made the same
2) harder to shoot tens
3) same scores for the most part
4) I could not control my shot process to the same extent, and performed better with the Toz
5) Toz has over 2 inches less sight radius
6) shorter sight radius has given me more confidence to get the shot away
loose shot would be a snow bunny LOL :-))))
Sirs, TOZ and Morini cannot be compared: they're different generations (I'm about technologies). TOZ - is alive legend... our history... It's real sensation that such "grandfather" is still fighting for a place under the sun. No comments.
P.S. I know many young russian shooters (16-19 years old)... everything they have is TOZ (Morini is too high priced for our living level and for our wages here, in russia). Believe me: on inner-Russian competitions here's very hot concours. Youth do 530-550 without any problem.
For example (as proof):
http://www.shooting.newmail.ru/Rezult/C ... 03mp6.html
or
http://www.shooting.newmail.ru/Rezult/M ... 04mp6.html
... and Martin Tenk is not alone with his TOZ.
Do you remeber FP gold medalist Atlanta'96? Right... Kokorev.
Hm... 3rd place in Athens'04? A man from Korea.
Also, my friend Mukhtarov D. (from Uzbek National Team) has achieved not bad results with it. He couldn't take 3rd place in Sydney'00 because of weak 9s... he did only 9s and 10s. But his 9s were too weak at Ascor system and didn't let him to take Bronze.
KIRIAKOV 570+96 / 666
BASINSKI 569+94,3 / 663,3
TENK 566+96,5 / 662,5
GONTCHAROV 564+98,2 / 662,2
MUKHTAROV 565+97 / 662
...
Fortune...
But he has won WC Atlanta'01 and 2nd place WCF Munich'01:
NESTROUEV 564+97 / 661
MUKHTAROV 566+94,3 / 660,3
Fortune again...
It isn't polemic.. just unreserved admiration about TOZ-35 (or first name "Baumanec-1"), which history begins in 1959 (in 1962 were made first 6 copies). This pistol was diploma work for Khaidurov in Univesity.
Do you remeber FP gold medalist Atlanta'96? Right... Kokorev.
Hm... 3rd place in Athens'04? A man from Korea.
Also, my friend Mukhtarov D. (from Uzbek National Team) has achieved not bad results with it. He couldn't take 3rd place in Sydney'00 because of weak 9s... he did only 9s and 10s. But his 9s were too weak at Ascor system and didn't let him to take Bronze.
KIRIAKOV 570+96 / 666
BASINSKI 569+94,3 / 663,3
TENK 566+96,5 / 662,5
GONTCHAROV 564+98,2 / 662,2
MUKHTAROV 565+97 / 662
...
Fortune...
But he has won WC Atlanta'01 and 2nd place WCF Munich'01:
NESTROUEV 564+97 / 661
MUKHTAROV 566+94,3 / 660,3
Fortune again...
It isn't polemic.. just unreserved admiration about TOZ-35 (or first name "Baumanec-1"), which history begins in 1959 (in 1962 were made first 6 copies). This pistol was diploma work for Khaidurov in Univesity.