Hello Everyone,
If you had to pick between an electronic trainer or an air pistol, what would you choose? My primary motivation is improving my bullseye shooting, I will probably never shoot an air pistol match. I can see advantages to both, but I'm having a hard time making a decision. I'm currently considering either a Rika, or a Pardini K2 if that helps.
I'd like to be able to shoot targets, real or electronic so that I can collect some statistical data on my performance (which I realy can't do with just dryfiring).
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve.
New air pistol or Rika trainer?
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Steve Swartz
Steve:
1) Buying a new air pistol won't help you (even indirectly) achieve the things you mention in your post that you are trying to achieve
2) Buying a Rika trainer will directly help you achieve the things you say in your post you are trying to achieve
therefore
3) Either there is something else you are not telling us, or you are just asking for validation on what appears, based on your posting, to be a fairly self-evident conclusion?
Steve Swartz
1) Buying a new air pistol won't help you (even indirectly) achieve the things you mention in your post that you are trying to achieve
2) Buying a Rika trainer will directly help you achieve the things you say in your post you are trying to achieve
therefore
3) Either there is something else you are not telling us, or you are just asking for validation on what appears, based on your posting, to be a fairly self-evident conclusion?
Steve Swartz
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
I shoot Rifle (in addition to pistol) and find dry firing boring.... but more and more I see the value in it. lanny Basham recommends 4 or 8 dry fire shots per record shot fired....
A very supportive fellow shooter has loaned me his electronic trainer...
I am beginning to be convinced that dry firing, or training especially in conjuction with the trainer is MORE valuable than live fire!
All the frustrations that come with ammo dispersion, wind, and vision at 50m are eliminated, so you can concentrate on your real problems, like yanking that danged trigger...
I have not used the trainer much with pistol yet, I think there may be differences.
One local shooter got a CO2 pellet gun shaped like a 1911 and put a red dot on it and finds he gets very good training with it. I think for a serious Bullseye shooter that would be better than a $1200 olympic grade air pistol. And it is priced to allow you to GET BOTH!
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
A very supportive fellow shooter has loaned me his electronic trainer...
I am beginning to be convinced that dry firing, or training especially in conjuction with the trainer is MORE valuable than live fire!
All the frustrations that come with ammo dispersion, wind, and vision at 50m are eliminated, so you can concentrate on your real problems, like yanking that danged trigger...
I have not used the trainer much with pistol yet, I think there may be differences.
One local shooter got a CO2 pellet gun shaped like a 1911 and put a red dot on it and finds he gets very good training with it. I think for a serious Bullseye shooter that would be better than a $1200 olympic grade air pistol. And it is priced to allow you to GET BOTH!
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
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Guest
Or find a used Crosman Blaster conversion and put it on your 1911 frame. Too bad they did not make a multi shot version.Bill Poole wrote: One local shooter got a CO2 pellet gun shaped like a 1911 and put a red dot on it and finds he gets very good training with it. I think for a serious Bullseye shooter that would be better than a $1200 olympic grade air pistol. And it is priced to allow you to GET BOTH!
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
Charles
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dhurt
I have had limited use with an electronic trainer but I can see they have some great features, however, I think I have had some very good practice with my air pistol relative to shooting .22 bullseye, especially the slow fire stage. The morini 162EI lets you practice your timed and rapid fire cadence which can be helpful, and there are the multi shot airpistols out there. When I pick up my .45, I am not sure how much my airpistol training is helping me? Maybe a bunch of ammo and some range time would be better money spent? Let us know if you find the answer.
Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. I guess the one problem I feel I have with my dryfiring is that after 20 or 30 shots, I tend to get too picky and hold too long. Both the electronic trainer and a paper target with a hole in the 6 ring will provide the negative feedback necessary.
I do think the electronic trainer will be more useful, but I really would like an air pistol. Decisions decisions...
Thanks again,
Steve.
I do think the electronic trainer will be more useful, but I really would like an air pistol. Decisions decisions...
Thanks again,
Steve.
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Steve Swartz
You do realize that you can hook your BE/SP up to the Rika and train at home too, right?
Compare the training effect of training "live fire" with an air pistol (dissimilar equipment) vice training "instrumented dry fire" with your actual competition gun . . .
Heck, buy the danged air pistol- but you don't have to rationalize it by saying you are doing it to help your other shooting! =8^)
(Buy both. Skip the rent and/or car payment for a month or so. They'll understand!)
Steve Swartz
Compare the training effect of training "live fire" with an air pistol (dissimilar equipment) vice training "instrumented dry fire" with your actual competition gun . . .
Heck, buy the danged air pistol- but you don't have to rationalize it by saying you are doing it to help your other shooting! =8^)
(Buy both. Skip the rent and/or car payment for a month or so. They'll understand!)
Steve Swartz
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Guest
Tenex:
I too am a bullseye shooter. Buy a Steyr LP 50. You can get it with a 1911 grip frame and a heavy trigger that can be adjusted to over 3lbs. It is a five shot semi-auto that if bought from Pilk it can be had with a factory cut shroud to mount a red dot or scope. Nothing will bring up your short line scores as well as actually shooting timed and rapid. Gil Hebard has 25 foot targets for training, both slow and T&R. I fire the same scores with the LP50 as I do with my fire arms outdoors, 870's.
Dave C.
Sorry if this is posted twice.
I too am a bullseye shooter. Buy a Steyr LP 50. You can get it with a 1911 grip frame and a heavy trigger that can be adjusted to over 3lbs. It is a five shot semi-auto that if bought from Pilk it can be had with a factory cut shroud to mount a red dot or scope. Nothing will bring up your short line scores as well as actually shooting timed and rapid. Gil Hebard has 25 foot targets for training, both slow and T&R. I fire the same scores with the LP50 as I do with my fire arms outdoors, 870's.
Dave C.
Sorry if this is posted twice.
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Steve Swartz
Dave and All:
Re: using LP50 to train for BE RF. Yes, but your TF/RF technique will be affected in ways both positive AND negative by training on dissimilar equipment (the LP50).
While it is true that there is some "Crosstraining Effect" from shooting TF/RF with a repeating air pistol like the LP50, the training specificity principle is still somewhat immutable. Developing technique that works for Gun X in situation A will not help completely for Gun Y in situation B.
The trigger on the LP50 can be brought up to the same weight as a BE gun- but NOT the same feel. You could never duplicate the recoil. You could get close to the same grip- but not The same. You could get close to the weight and balance . . . you could get close to the sight picture . . . but you will be developing and perfecting your technique on a system that is "not quite the same" as your competition system.
890s in BE with either the 22 or the 45 can be developed with proper training. Been there, done that (just not all three guns in the same match, dagnabbit!). However, as your technique improves you need to focus your training on those aspects of technique that will provide the greatest benefit to you- and not just assume that "capping rounds" will help (I once overheard a low-2500 shooter remark that "it's all good" when discussing how best to invest his training time. D'OH!).
How do you propose to figure out what aspect of your technique will yield the greatest benefit from the investment of your precious time?
Might there be some tools for assessing weaknesses in technique, to help you focus your training effort?
Sorry to "Go Off" on this; however, it is very frustrating to hear (or suspect I heard; sorry) anything that remotely sounds like the embodiment of the "Capping Rounds" or "It's All Good" schools of thought on training.
Dave, I know that's not what you said per se; I hope you don't take offense. Your comment about training for BE rapid fire by shooting the LP50 kind of suggested- suggested- that there would be an awfully high amount of training spillover (ignoring training specificity) that I'm not sure is completely warranted.
Steve Swartz
Re: using LP50 to train for BE RF. Yes, but your TF/RF technique will be affected in ways both positive AND negative by training on dissimilar equipment (the LP50).
While it is true that there is some "Crosstraining Effect" from shooting TF/RF with a repeating air pistol like the LP50, the training specificity principle is still somewhat immutable. Developing technique that works for Gun X in situation A will not help completely for Gun Y in situation B.
The trigger on the LP50 can be brought up to the same weight as a BE gun- but NOT the same feel. You could never duplicate the recoil. You could get close to the same grip- but not The same. You could get close to the weight and balance . . . you could get close to the sight picture . . . but you will be developing and perfecting your technique on a system that is "not quite the same" as your competition system.
890s in BE with either the 22 or the 45 can be developed with proper training. Been there, done that (just not all three guns in the same match, dagnabbit!). However, as your technique improves you need to focus your training on those aspects of technique that will provide the greatest benefit to you- and not just assume that "capping rounds" will help (I once overheard a low-2500 shooter remark that "it's all good" when discussing how best to invest his training time. D'OH!).
How do you propose to figure out what aspect of your technique will yield the greatest benefit from the investment of your precious time?
Might there be some tools for assessing weaknesses in technique, to help you focus your training effort?
Sorry to "Go Off" on this; however, it is very frustrating to hear (or suspect I heard; sorry) anything that remotely sounds like the embodiment of the "Capping Rounds" or "It's All Good" schools of thought on training.
Dave, I know that's not what you said per se; I hope you don't take offense. Your comment about training for BE rapid fire by shooting the LP50 kind of suggested- suggested- that there would be an awfully high amount of training spillover (ignoring training specificity) that I'm not sure is completely warranted.
Steve Swartz
Re: New air pistol or Rika trainer?
I'm a little bit confused. If you will never shoot an AP comp then why do you want to improve ? That's probably worded wrong but to just check what your scores are etc I don't see any point in getting a home trainer. And whatever people may say, it just aint the same as 'real' shooting.tenex wrote:My primary motivation is improving my bullseye shooting, I will probably never shoot an air pistol match.
So my answer would be get the gun. I would advise you to practice shooting it and perfect your technique, dry firing etc. I would also urge you to shoot some comps - nothing beats that feeling of doing well in a competiton and watching them scores go up.
Rob.
New AP or RIKA
Steve:
First let me say I am not offended. And yes I agree that "capping rounds" is a waste of time. That is not the point of my post. For many of us the amount of range time is very limited and having an AP that can be shot at home is a great training aid. If I can train on a turning target with a pistol that has the same grip and same sight as my 1911 with no travel time it is better than having to drive an hour to shoot the nearest indoor range. Is it the same as shooting your 45? No. Does it have the same feeling trigger as you fire arms? No. Does it recoil the same? No. Does your 22 have the same trigger as your 45? Does your 22 recoil the same as your 45? The point I am trying to make is it can be a great training aid but it is not the be all, end all tool. But it is a valuable tool.
Dave C.
First let me say I am not offended. And yes I agree that "capping rounds" is a waste of time. That is not the point of my post. For many of us the amount of range time is very limited and having an AP that can be shot at home is a great training aid. If I can train on a turning target with a pistol that has the same grip and same sight as my 1911 with no travel time it is better than having to drive an hour to shoot the nearest indoor range. Is it the same as shooting your 45? No. Does it have the same feeling trigger as you fire arms? No. Does it recoil the same? No. Does your 22 have the same trigger as your 45? Does your 22 recoil the same as your 45? The point I am trying to make is it can be a great training aid but it is not the be all, end all tool. But it is a valuable tool.
Dave C.
tenex
I dont' know what you are shooting; bulls-eye, rapid fire, etc.
But here is my experience w a Rika. It showed me very clearly how steady (or more accurately how NOT steady) I was holding. It showed the pattern, which surprise is just what everyone said. "Get the shot of in less than 10 seconds or put the pistol down." This was something that was just not visible to me w/o the plot on the target.
gud luk
Gary
I dont' know what you are shooting; bulls-eye, rapid fire, etc.
But here is my experience w a Rika. It showed me very clearly how steady (or more accurately how NOT steady) I was holding. It showed the pattern, which surprise is just what everyone said. "Get the shot of in less than 10 seconds or put the pistol down." This was something that was just not visible to me w/o the plot on the target.
gud luk
Gary
Rob,
I do shoot competitive NRA bullseye, I don't currently shoot air pistol. There are many more Bullseye matches where I live than air pistol matches.
One aspect I'm trying to enforce is proper and more rapid trigger control. I've just started shooting slow fire with a spotting scope so that if I hold too long and fire a bad shot, I'll get the immediate feedback necessary. I don't get that during dryfire, and as such I tend to hold longer and longer before releasing the shot.
I recognize that the electronic trainer is probably a better training tool, but air pistol does look like an awful lot of fun, and I can shoot as much as I like at home (I have limited range time).
Anyway, that's my situation. Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions.
Sincerely, Steve.
I do shoot competitive NRA bullseye, I don't currently shoot air pistol. There are many more Bullseye matches where I live than air pistol matches.
One aspect I'm trying to enforce is proper and more rapid trigger control. I've just started shooting slow fire with a spotting scope so that if I hold too long and fire a bad shot, I'll get the immediate feedback necessary. I don't get that during dryfire, and as such I tend to hold longer and longer before releasing the shot.
I recognize that the electronic trainer is probably a better training tool, but air pistol does look like an awful lot of fun, and I can shoot as much as I like at home (I have limited range time).
Anyway, that's my situation. Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions.
Sincerely, Steve.
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
of course, maybe "that sure looks like fun" could turn into your number one sport!
That sorta happened to me..... according to UPS tracker... my SECOND High end Air Pistol is on schedule to arrive Wednesday!
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
That sorta happened to me..... according to UPS tracker... my SECOND High end Air Pistol is on schedule to arrive Wednesday!
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
Steve,tenex wrote: One aspect I'm trying to enforce is proper and more rapid trigger control. I've just started shooting slow fire with a spotting scope so that if I hold too long and fire a bad shot, I'll get the immediate feedback necessary. I don't get that during dryfire, and as such I tend to hold longer and longer before releasing the shot.
But you already know the problem, and hence the solution, so I would suggest a Rika won't help that. Practice the quick trigger release during dry firing and then real firing. I would suggest you don't even 'score' your shots just get the technique right and perhaps count in your head whilst on aim (I certainly do that when I struggle).
HTH,
Rob.