I'd hoped the earlier post from Doc Sexton with shortened possible shooting schedules would have generated a lot more interest. We need to get our views to USA Shooting if we hope to make changes to get more people involved in shooting pistol competitively.
For those not acquainted with how the USA Shooting Nationals are run right now, here are a few of my ideas on why participation is falling every year:
1. For every event there is a training day, then two match days. So if you wanted to attend the Nationals to shoot Air Pistol only, you would have be there a minimum of three days. Six days to shoot Air and Free, and almost 2 weeks to shoot the five men's ISSF events. In every case the shooting starts at 9 am and is finished before midday. This leaves a lot of dead time in a strange town... not to mention the expense of staying away from home, rental car, eating, etc.
2. Entry fees are expensive. Granted they have to cover costs, but it's a vicious circle - for as long as there are low numbers, the fees will be high. But $95 for one event (or the cost of a used pistol to shoot 4 or 5 events), added to the already high costs of an extended stay make it even more daunting.
3. Apart from the expense, most of us simply do not have the vacation time available to spend time away from home for one such shoot; throw in similar trips to the Spring and Fall Selection matches and most guys would be facing divorce.
I liked the second option of the Nationals in Doc's post, where a shooter could compete once in five events over four days - this could be a long weekend. Those shooters who are vying for National Team selection could stay over a few days to shoot their second matches. The Olympic matches are scheduled for morning sessions, with Finals, matches of secondary importance (Standard and Center) shot in the afternoons. I'm used to seeing hundreds of competitors shooting at State Titles in Australia, five matches over three days, on ranges no larger than Benning, where everything is shot on paper (scored and patched after every five shots for the 25m events). Electronics make things far quicker - frankly we could treble the number of shooters at a US Nationals and still not break a sweat with either of the proposed programs.
What we need now is feedback - and a lot of it. Please complete the attached poll, and ask every ISSF shooter you know to do the same. If we can make the Nationals a big event it can only have good flow-on effects. I know there are people out there who don't attend Nationals because it's such a drawn-out production; if we can convince USA Shooting of the benefits by weight of numbers maybe we can help turn the tide.
Nationals - Shortened Program
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Not meant to be anon!
This was my post, I guess I took too long to type it out, so I was logged out automatically. The poll also did not attach itself; please just post your reactions and encourage as many as possible to do likewise.
Warren
Warren
I am not yet ready to compete for a national title or spot on the US team, but I really want to go to the Nationals. I went to Camp Perry for the first time this year, and it gave my shooting an incredible boost. I would like the same experience with International Shooting. Time and distance kept me from going this year and will probably prevent me from going next year. If I could compete in 1 or 2 events over a long weekend it would make it MUCH easier for me, both with my wife and my boss.
In short, I like it! I hope it can happen.
Steve T
In short, I like it! I hope it can happen.
Steve T
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
Training day and two Match days sounds pretty good. Done by Noon sounds like the place is scheduled badly. I shoot American Bullseye (Not very well yet) and don't know much about the equipment etc in International shooting. However I would agree that if you could go shoot in more than one discipline in a week, or better yet a long weekend, participation would increase.
Mike
Wichita KS
Training day and two Match days sounds pretty good. Done by Noon sounds like the place is scheduled badly. I shoot American Bullseye (Not very well yet) and don't know much about the equipment etc in International shooting. However I would agree that if you could go shoot in more than one discipline in a week, or better yet a long weekend, participation would increase.
Mike
Wichita KS
The schedule needs to be compressed to at least one week to include training and firing for all pistol events. The entry fees also need to be reduced; perhaps the fees after the first entry could be substantially reduced to half or less? Basically, I'm not going to go to the trouble and expense to attend nationals to fire only one event; but if I can't afford to enter more than one event...
PTO vs Nationals
Having all the events over a long weekend is not much more than a PTO in my opinion.
Nationals needs to be a little more special; something like two courses of fire for each event to be the winner.
Taking a week of vacation is not easy for anyone, but look at the competitors that go to Perry.
I agree with concerns about entry fees. It becomes limiting when you get over the few hundred dollar figure. Almost $500 at present for all the pistol events with the present structure.
There are three keys to the Nationals and participation. One is grassroots and that is having enough local PTO events to biuld participation,making the Nationals the "big event" for the year. This is the real missing incredient.
Second is making it fun and enjoyable, what do you do when you get off the line?
Third is the big event concept. When attentance is too low, when a good performance and improvement has nothing to offer your ego, when nobody you meet until the next years nationals understands what you did, why go?
Nationals needs to be a little more special; something like two courses of fire for each event to be the winner.
Taking a week of vacation is not easy for anyone, but look at the competitors that go to Perry.
I agree with concerns about entry fees. It becomes limiting when you get over the few hundred dollar figure. Almost $500 at present for all the pistol events with the present structure.
There are three keys to the Nationals and participation. One is grassroots and that is having enough local PTO events to biuld participation,making the Nationals the "big event" for the year. This is the real missing incredient.
Second is making it fun and enjoyable, what do you do when you get off the line?
Third is the big event concept. When attentance is too low, when a good performance and improvement has nothing to offer your ego, when nobody you meet until the next years nationals understands what you did, why go?
Making it Special
Thanks for your comments Pete; I appreciate it, and wish we could get more discussion on this.
Don't you think that having the best shooters in the country shooting shoulder to shoulder makes it a little more than a PTO? Of course if you want to shoot two matches there would be nothing to prevent you from signing up for the second matches shot over the following days. The whole concept of shortening the program is to attract many more shooters who don't want to or simply can't attend for an extended stay. Who knows, in the future when we make this a thriving sport again, we may need to get back to limiting entries due to lack of space (which was why PTOs were originally instigated) - at that point the might like to de-compress the Nationals a little to create more breathing space.
Broadening participation at Nationals level would also have the effect of encouraging more shooters to run PTOs in their own clubs. I've been at this 30 years now, and regardless of how a shooter performs at a big shoot like the Nationals, most of the time he returns home with more enthusiasm for the sport, just itching to do stuff.
A big match does not have to shoot twice across the course. I've never heard anybody at the National Matches at Camp Perry wish for that; in fact the 3-gun matches there are completed in 3 days. No international competition I know of shoots twice, certainly not at World Cups or Olympics, although I know some Regional Champs (Oceania for one) has a team match as well as an individual match. They are never shot on consecutive days however.
I really believe what would make our Nationals a "big" event would be to have 150 shooters compete in Air Pistol, over 100 in Free Pistol, and so on. Then lower running costs per head would allow a drop in entry fees.
I think we're wanting the same things, would like more discussion on how it can be achieved. Anybody?
Warren
Don't you think that having the best shooters in the country shooting shoulder to shoulder makes it a little more than a PTO? Of course if you want to shoot two matches there would be nothing to prevent you from signing up for the second matches shot over the following days. The whole concept of shortening the program is to attract many more shooters who don't want to or simply can't attend for an extended stay. Who knows, in the future when we make this a thriving sport again, we may need to get back to limiting entries due to lack of space (which was why PTOs were originally instigated) - at that point the might like to de-compress the Nationals a little to create more breathing space.
Broadening participation at Nationals level would also have the effect of encouraging more shooters to run PTOs in their own clubs. I've been at this 30 years now, and regardless of how a shooter performs at a big shoot like the Nationals, most of the time he returns home with more enthusiasm for the sport, just itching to do stuff.
A big match does not have to shoot twice across the course. I've never heard anybody at the National Matches at Camp Perry wish for that; in fact the 3-gun matches there are completed in 3 days. No international competition I know of shoots twice, certainly not at World Cups or Olympics, although I know some Regional Champs (Oceania for one) has a team match as well as an individual match. They are never shot on consecutive days however.
I really believe what would make our Nationals a "big" event would be to have 150 shooters compete in Air Pistol, over 100 in Free Pistol, and so on. Then lower running costs per head would allow a drop in entry fees.
I think we're wanting the same things, would like more discussion on how it can be achieved. Anybody?
Warren
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jones4563
schedule
My suggestion:
Shoot each event only one time.
Shoot two events per day.
Shoot most popular Olympic event in the morning on the first day.
Shoot the most popular non Olympic event on the afternoon of the first day.
And so on-------
Possible schedule:
Day One-Friday
Morning-Sign in
Afternoon-Practices for next day
Day Two-Saturday
Morning- Air Pistol
Afternoon-Standard Pistol
Late Afternoon-Practices for next day
Day Three-Sunday
Morning-Free Pistol
Afternoon-Center Fire Pistol
Late Afternoon-Practice for next day
Day Four-Monday
Morning-Rapid Fire Pistol
Afternoon-Siminar on Rapid Fire to promote the event.
It would be possible for some to shoot all the matches, attend the siminar and miss only two days of work depending on your location and flight schedules.
Jerry Jones
Shoot each event only one time.
Shoot two events per day.
Shoot most popular Olympic event in the morning on the first day.
Shoot the most popular non Olympic event on the afternoon of the first day.
And so on-------
Possible schedule:
Day One-Friday
Morning-Sign in
Afternoon-Practices for next day
Day Two-Saturday
Morning- Air Pistol
Afternoon-Standard Pistol
Late Afternoon-Practices for next day
Day Three-Sunday
Morning-Free Pistol
Afternoon-Center Fire Pistol
Late Afternoon-Practice for next day
Day Four-Monday
Morning-Rapid Fire Pistol
Afternoon-Siminar on Rapid Fire to promote the event.
It would be possible for some to shoot all the matches, attend the siminar and miss only two days of work depending on your location and flight schedules.
Jerry Jones
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
I didn't vote either, but for a more opposite reason. I almost certainly won't go for another few years no matter what happens. I don't shoot ANY international pistol now, and until I get my Bullseye scores above 2300, I don't intend to shoot anything else. By the time I get to 2300, I'm sure the format will change anyway.
Good idea on trying to get more shooters though. I'll get the rulebooks and start the kids out on it when we get our air pistols classes started.
Mike
Wichita KS
I didn't vote either, but for a more opposite reason. I almost certainly won't go for another few years no matter what happens. I don't shoot ANY international pistol now, and until I get my Bullseye scores above 2300, I don't intend to shoot anything else. By the time I get to 2300, I'm sure the format will change anyway.
Good idea on trying to get more shooters though. I'll get the rulebooks and start the kids out on it when we get our air pistols classes started.
Mike
Wichita KS
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Kelly
As a parent of a Junior shooter I like the idea of compressing the schedule. My son would have liked to shoot other events but time would not alow us to stay for 2 weeks. I think you can still shoot the same courses of fire that were shot last year and still compress the schedule. Like lots have stated, the afternoons have nothing going on. Someone mentioned Camp Perry, I believe they have matches going all day. I beleive a shooter can shoot a match in the morning and train in the afternoon, somehow I don't see a problem with this. I do like the 2 courses of fire, if we travel a long way I like to see lots of shooting. But 2 weeks to shoot 5 diciplines is tooooooo long. Who knows maybe I might try a match or two if the schduling was right.
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Kelly
I left out of my above message that the cost to run a match would be considerably less to run the entire national match if it took less days. How many dollars a day did they say it took for Nationals last year, I can't remember but if you cut the number of days you cut dollars spent to run the match. Makes good business sense to cut the length.
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kchatterton
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:10 pm
Nationals and selection matches
It seems to us that these matches have been structured to discourage civilian participation. If my husband and I wanted to go and shoot 2 events each, we had to take 2 weeks off from work. In addition, we have seen the match squadding be so arbitrary as to not allow any changes so that traveling companions could be on the same relay thereby not allowing them to come and go together. Also, with limited participation, why can't the women and men shooting air and sport/centerfire shoot at the same time? Same target, same course of fire except for ladies air being less shots and time. In view of diminishing military participation, this sport will disappear if the civilian ranks are so disgusted as to not participate either. It's a shame, and has kept me from shooting International for many years.
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dhurt
I really want to shoot nationals this coming year! If I could shoot all the events over a shorter time frame, and at perhaps a discount for multiple events, I will do my darndest to get there. The last nationals I went to were in Chino CA (1987), and the free pistol line was large. Its a shame to have smaller and smaller participation in our great sport. Lets see both sponsor and shooters make an effort to make things better.
So Waren, are you going to collect all this input and send it to our leaders? Discussions amongst ourselves serve virtually no purpose unless the opinions also reach those who make the decisions.
Preface: None of the below is new. Until now it has been ignored... probably still will be, but its always worth a try.
The nationals take far too long. Even the most dedicated shooters have trouble with a two week hoorah. The first split needs to be rifle, pistol, and shotgun. 10 days for each. You don't see the NRA trying to run smallbore and bullseye together at Perry for a reason.
Few shooters cross the rifle/pistol lines, but lots of pistol shooters shoot multiple events... rifle guys too for rifle. The last time I was at the nationals I was surprised that the ranges weren't utilized more. There should be competition from day break to dark. Every international sport should be offered, including the new air things the ISSF invented. Consider splitting air away from cartidge and having it at the training center.
For God's sake, quit holding the matches in the armpit of the world every year. Atlanta was bad enough. Benning?? forget it. Hold the nationals on the west coast every other year. Shoot on mechanical targets... shoot on an english measured range if need be. No range available? What a disgrace that we let the sport fall into such disrepair. And really, the only time you need those fancy electronic targets that nobody can afford is when they are selecting for the world championship and the Olympics (every 2 years, gee). I know many shooters that would go to LA or Idaho for the nationals that will never go to Benning.
Get the CMP to change the international distinguished program to match the other ones so that you don't have to go to the Olympics to earn it. Then make it part of the nationals. My guess is that you'd pick up a dozen or so pistol guys from Washington alone that would go after the award.
And finally, if you really want more people at the nationals, then you gotta have a regional match in every region, every year; you gotta have a zone championship in all 10 zones every year; you gotta have state championships in every state, every year. Without the recreational shooter, the whole program is a joke. They are the foil against which the elite demonstrate their greatness. Perry is so big because lots of places have waiting lists to shoot local bullseye matches. When PTO actually has a purpose, then the nationals will swell to the stature they should have. Fixing the nationals requires fixing the management of the sport itself.
Larry
Preface: None of the below is new. Until now it has been ignored... probably still will be, but its always worth a try.
The nationals take far too long. Even the most dedicated shooters have trouble with a two week hoorah. The first split needs to be rifle, pistol, and shotgun. 10 days for each. You don't see the NRA trying to run smallbore and bullseye together at Perry for a reason.
Few shooters cross the rifle/pistol lines, but lots of pistol shooters shoot multiple events... rifle guys too for rifle. The last time I was at the nationals I was surprised that the ranges weren't utilized more. There should be competition from day break to dark. Every international sport should be offered, including the new air things the ISSF invented. Consider splitting air away from cartidge and having it at the training center.
For God's sake, quit holding the matches in the armpit of the world every year. Atlanta was bad enough. Benning?? forget it. Hold the nationals on the west coast every other year. Shoot on mechanical targets... shoot on an english measured range if need be. No range available? What a disgrace that we let the sport fall into such disrepair. And really, the only time you need those fancy electronic targets that nobody can afford is when they are selecting for the world championship and the Olympics (every 2 years, gee). I know many shooters that would go to LA or Idaho for the nationals that will never go to Benning.
Get the CMP to change the international distinguished program to match the other ones so that you don't have to go to the Olympics to earn it. Then make it part of the nationals. My guess is that you'd pick up a dozen or so pistol guys from Washington alone that would go after the award.
And finally, if you really want more people at the nationals, then you gotta have a regional match in every region, every year; you gotta have a zone championship in all 10 zones every year; you gotta have state championships in every state, every year. Without the recreational shooter, the whole program is a joke. They are the foil against which the elite demonstrate their greatness. Perry is so big because lots of places have waiting lists to shoot local bullseye matches. When PTO actually has a purpose, then the nationals will swell to the stature they should have. Fixing the nationals requires fixing the management of the sport itself.
Larry
Personally I like shooting 2 x each event. The middle training day with no match buggs me. By the time we all get to nationals the only training you need to do is shoot on the range to get an idea what it feels like, check lighting and make any adjustments you may need to make to adapt to the range.
I like Doc's first option. keep the events back to back if we end up shooting 2x . I agree that we should have at least a slow fire event and a 25M event done in the same day and that would help increase the numbers.
kchatterton, I am not sure where you are coming from with your statement about "...structured to discourage civilian participation." There are more civilian shooters than military shooters at any of the events. Of course the military teams will always be there because that is their job.
If people want to go to nationals and time is limited go for the number of days you can afford and shoot what ever events appeal to you for the time you can afford. Hopefully the schedule will change so someone can show up and shoot Air and Center in the same day.
One of the disadvantages of shooting 2 events in the same day is you get really tired. I know after shooting 50M pistol I am tired.
One thing we all need to remember is this sport will require more time from you when you get to the top. If you do not have to time to go to nationals you will struggle when you make the team and need to travel to a world cup. I know when we had 3 week long matches in the year if you made a the team and were selected to travel to a match that takes of all of your vacation and could be more than some people have. I was always frustrated by that schedule and gald that 2005 will not have it.
Someone should just sent this entire thread to Buddy when we are done.
I like Doc's first option. keep the events back to back if we end up shooting 2x . I agree that we should have at least a slow fire event and a 25M event done in the same day and that would help increase the numbers.
kchatterton, I am not sure where you are coming from with your statement about "...structured to discourage civilian participation." There are more civilian shooters than military shooters at any of the events. Of course the military teams will always be there because that is their job.
If people want to go to nationals and time is limited go for the number of days you can afford and shoot what ever events appeal to you for the time you can afford. Hopefully the schedule will change so someone can show up and shoot Air and Center in the same day.
One of the disadvantages of shooting 2 events in the same day is you get really tired. I know after shooting 50M pistol I am tired.
One thing we all need to remember is this sport will require more time from you when you get to the top. If you do not have to time to go to nationals you will struggle when you make the team and need to travel to a world cup. I know when we had 3 week long matches in the year if you made a the team and were selected to travel to a match that takes of all of your vacation and could be more than some people have. I was always frustrated by that schedule and gald that 2005 will not have it.
Someone should just sent this entire thread to Buddy when we are done.
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rk
Most folks work Monday through Friday. It seems to me that if the schedule encompassed two weekends and the days in between that one would require only one week off to shoot all the events if the events overlapped as follows (for example):
reg=registration
f=finals
p=practice
This way every AM and PM are spent shooting (if one wishes). FP/AP/RF (Olympic events) "stand alone" (i.e. record matches do not overlap, though practices overlap matches).
It seems a waste to break up two weeks, using weekdays and one weekend, to shoot 8 days as is scheduled this year, when 9 days can be had with two weekends and the intervening days.
Edited by Shin: formatting
Code: Select all
----Sa-----Su-----Mo-----Tu-----We-----Th-----Fr-------Sa----Su
AM--reg----FP-----FP/f---AP-----AP/f---RF-----RF/f-----SP----SP
PM--FP/p---FP/p---AP/p---AP/p---RF/p---RF/p---SP/CF/p--CF----CFf=finals
p=practice
This way every AM and PM are spent shooting (if one wishes). FP/AP/RF (Olympic events) "stand alone" (i.e. record matches do not overlap, though practices overlap matches).
It seems a waste to break up two weeks, using weekdays and one weekend, to shoot 8 days as is scheduled this year, when 9 days can be had with two weekends and the intervening days.
Edited by Shin: formatting
Taking it further
Yes Steve, we had intended collating responses and fwding all comments to USA Shooting. I gave them a submission two years ago, and intend to pursue this as far as I can. But frankly 22 people have so far bothered to vote in the poll, and maybe a dozen given comments. Does this mean everyone else is happy with the status quo? We've had a bunch of hits on this topic, we just need to get a bunch more input from you guys (and gals).
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Guest
compress schedule
I feel the compessed schedule would increase participation. I for one shot at nationals this year and planned on shooting all five mens pistol events. But after analizing the cost and time to add rapid, center and standard to my already week long vac. decided not to. The cost was close to 1500 dollars( entry fees, hotel ,rent car) and not to mention the extra week of vacation. If the compressed schedule becomes a reality this year, I will be there for it all and so will other competitors I know. I think the suggested schedule #1 on docs thread and the #1 schedule posted at nationals, seem to be the most reasonable schedule Ive seen.
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Guest
Good discussion allround.
Why "morning-only" may be leftover from having it in really hot locations - ie: Chino Ca or Black Canyon (Phoenix?) Ariz. Where it's pretty uncomfortable after noon. Or may be that they were figuring that people would want to go sightsee in the pm. Apparently it's now moved to somewhere that there is nothing to sightsee.
Agree that it should travel around the country a bit. Even at Wolf Creek for crying out loud. The top potential shooting team members could always have a "final final" selection match at the Training Center if they think the Natls are tainted by paper targets or some such.
Why "morning-only" may be leftover from having it in really hot locations - ie: Chino Ca or Black Canyon (Phoenix?) Ariz. Where it's pretty uncomfortable after noon. Or may be that they were figuring that people would want to go sightsee in the pm. Apparently it's now moved to somewhere that there is nothing to sightsee.
Agree that it should travel around the country a bit. Even at Wolf Creek for crying out loud. The top potential shooting team members could always have a "final final" selection match at the Training Center if they think the Natls are tainted by paper targets or some such.
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Allan Bacon
US National Championships
Once over the course, get it all done in one week, Sat - Sun. Schedule is too long now.
VR,
Allan Bacon
VR,
Allan Bacon