Some time back, a post showed up detailing the incremental goal program for tightening groupings....shoot 10 targets with 8's or better, then 10 targets with 20 shot 8 or better and the same up to 10 targets of 30 shots 8 or better. Next, move on to doing the same progression with 9's or better and finally shooting the same schedule with at least 5 10's on the targets.
From experience, I can say that the first part of this is pretty easy to achieve. I have been stuck attempting to shoot 30 shots on a target that are 8's or better. Not that I haven't had some good scores on individual targets...some in the 90's....but they have had an occasional 7 (or worse). Finally, with attention to trigger and focus on front sight, I am beginning to make some progress on the run of 30's. The groups are tighter and the 9's and 10's are more frequent.
I don't know if there is a timeline for this program, but I can assure anyone willing to diligently attack it, it will make you a better shooter and put attainable progressive goals right in front of you...hence mark the improvements. Of course, all the basic techniques and mental aspects of the process play a part. The difference here is that instead of blindly going after a Gold Medal one can climb the steps with both short term progress and long term increase in skill level.
I was very frustrated for a number of months to stagnate and not get the groupings. Continuing to work on the elements of shooting...trigger, sights, stance, breathing, mental clarity and subconscious response makes the difference.
Thanks for letting me ramble on about why I think we all do this....fun.
CraigE
Sequential goal program
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Steve Swartz
Focus on Behavior, Not Outcome
Craig:
Pompous-ass lecture time; no offense intended.
Once the pellet leaves the muzzle, can you make it a better shot? No. Where the shot falls on the target is a "side effect" ONLY of you doing all the right things.
Shouldn't you be focusing on the behaviors required to shoot a ten, instead of whether or not the shot actually ended up being a ten?
What do you need to do to shoot a ten? Idnetify, measure, and improve on that. The scores themselves are meaningless from a training perspective.
Steve Swartz
Pompous-ass lecture time; no offense intended.
Once the pellet leaves the muzzle, can you make it a better shot? No. Where the shot falls on the target is a "side effect" ONLY of you doing all the right things.
Shouldn't you be focusing on the behaviors required to shoot a ten, instead of whether or not the shot actually ended up being a ten?
What do you need to do to shoot a ten? Idnetify, measure, and improve on that. The scores themselves are meaningless from a training perspective.
Steve Swartz
lecture critique accepted
maybe I was wordy. sorry. anyway, the point to be made was that by focusing on the techniques....always the ones to get a 10, one can measure the progress by measuring the increase in consistency against a specific goal. For this process, I don't score at all. Simply shoot to maintain a consistent and ever smaller grouping over a higher number of shots. If there is a better method, I sure am open to it. Thanks, CraigE, pomposity aside.
Steve Swatz - I hope your insult is directed at yourself and not CraigE. If you are referring to him, you should apologize immediately or be removed from this forum!
Here we have a person who is sharing a tool he uses for improving. It is a tool which I read and thought, "Gee, I can use that."
You are correct that a good shot is made through proper application of technique, but how do we measure how well we applied those techniques? By where the shot falls on the target. What is the goal of shooting competition? To get as many shots as close to the center as possible.
What he is describing is a training game that will (1) give a shooter a good way of tracking progress and provide small incremental goal achievements that s/he can feel good about, (2) Turn the shooter's focus away from match scores and towards shooting all shot's within his/her area of hold and (3) Progressively reduce the area of hold. That sounds like exactly what we are trying to achieve.
Steve T
Here we have a person who is sharing a tool he uses for improving. It is a tool which I read and thought, "Gee, I can use that."
You are correct that a good shot is made through proper application of technique, but how do we measure how well we applied those techniques? By where the shot falls on the target. What is the goal of shooting competition? To get as many shots as close to the center as possible.
What he is describing is a training game that will (1) give a shooter a good way of tracking progress and provide small incremental goal achievements that s/he can feel good about, (2) Turn the shooter's focus away from match scores and towards shooting all shot's within his/her area of hold and (3) Progressively reduce the area of hold. That sounds like exactly what we are trying to achieve.
Steve T
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Steve Swartz
Craig:
Hmmm . . . I thought it was pretty clear that by saying "pompous lecture time" I was preparing the reader for the nature of *my* response. Particularly since I was about to give "advice" in the form of "this is the way it is" I thought a little self-deprecating humor might be appreciated.
You know, like when someone says "angry reply mode ON" or "stand by for punchline."
Didn't see how "pompous ass lecture time; no offense intended" could be construed as "you were a pompous ass, so please take offense."
Anyhow, back to the heart of the matter. Consider the following, with or without any humor:
1) All you can control is your own behavior; and even then, only to a point (e.g. on any given shot you will get the wobble you get).
2) You are training in order to achieve a behavioral outcome; therefore, you should be measuring your progress against those behaviors
3) Yes I know we don't generally talk about *how* to measure behaviors (how do you measure "depth of concentration;" "smoothness of shot release," etc) but that doesn't mean we should give up trying. There are certain behavioral outcomes we want- and we should focus (measure progress against and concentrate on improving) on them.
4) Yes, over time improvement in behaviors will show up over the long haul in better scores/groups/whatever HOWEVER this is not a direct relationship on a shot to shot (certainly) or group-group (most probably) or even match score to match score (likely) basis. When you first begin to "break teh code" on oh say quality of sight alignment (vs. aim) your scores may actually go down for a few hundred/thousand shots. Concentrate on your scores, and you will see only failure. Concentrate on the quality of the alignment itself, ignoring scores, and in the long run, however, your average scores will trend up.
5) By focusing on points earned snapshots (or match results for that matter) you are diverting your attention away from things you can control toward things you can't control. This Is A Bad Thing.
Steve Swartz
(p.s. to Steve T: what the heck was that remark about tossing me off the forum all about? I have absolutely no need to apologize for your misunderstanding. Go ahead and remove me. Immediately, please, just like you said. Sheesh.)
Hmmm . . . I thought it was pretty clear that by saying "pompous lecture time" I was preparing the reader for the nature of *my* response. Particularly since I was about to give "advice" in the form of "this is the way it is" I thought a little self-deprecating humor might be appreciated.
You know, like when someone says "angry reply mode ON" or "stand by for punchline."
Didn't see how "pompous ass lecture time; no offense intended" could be construed as "you were a pompous ass, so please take offense."
Anyhow, back to the heart of the matter. Consider the following, with or without any humor:
1) All you can control is your own behavior; and even then, only to a point (e.g. on any given shot you will get the wobble you get).
2) You are training in order to achieve a behavioral outcome; therefore, you should be measuring your progress against those behaviors
3) Yes I know we don't generally talk about *how* to measure behaviors (how do you measure "depth of concentration;" "smoothness of shot release," etc) but that doesn't mean we should give up trying. There are certain behavioral outcomes we want- and we should focus (measure progress against and concentrate on improving) on them.
4) Yes, over time improvement in behaviors will show up over the long haul in better scores/groups/whatever HOWEVER this is not a direct relationship on a shot to shot (certainly) or group-group (most probably) or even match score to match score (likely) basis. When you first begin to "break teh code" on oh say quality of sight alignment (vs. aim) your scores may actually go down for a few hundred/thousand shots. Concentrate on your scores, and you will see only failure. Concentrate on the quality of the alignment itself, ignoring scores, and in the long run, however, your average scores will trend up.
5) By focusing on points earned snapshots (or match results for that matter) you are diverting your attention away from things you can control toward things you can't control. This Is A Bad Thing.
Steve Swartz
(p.s. to Steve T: what the heck was that remark about tossing me off the forum all about? I have absolutely no need to apologize for your misunderstanding. Go ahead and remove me. Immediately, please, just like you said. Sheesh.)
Focus on Behavior, Not Outcome
I totally agree with the 'Focus on Behavoir, Not Outcome' principle. I have been shooting for three months now. I learned so much from this forum, and there are tons of information from the pilkguns. I have heard about the plateau phenomenon and I have been trying to find out where my plateau is. To my surprise, my best score kept going up. I shot 530 a month ago, 544 two weeks ago, and 552 last week. I actually belive that 570 is achievable in my mind now. I always shoot 10 shots on each target and take each shot seriously. I'd analyze each shot in my head and try to find out what went wrong with each one of them. Oftentime, the gun will just go to ten automatically. The most important of all, it is a lot of fun shooting! Enjoy.
Colin
Colin
I may have misread some bits but I think what has been suggested is to focus on what you want to acheive and not what you don't want. If you set yourself "8's or better", then you are subconsciously accepting an 8 as OK. A bit like saying no 7's or 8's (whatever your target is). You want to aim for the good shots, i.e. mainly 10's and 9's but to keep all shots in the 8 ring (try to keep that out of your thought process though - at least whilst shooting each shot).
In a similar way you don't want to think things like - "gee how did I shoot that 7 ?". Think more about how you shot those good tens and just keep repeating the good bits. Shame it aint quite that easy in practice, but the theory works.
Rob.
In a similar way you don't want to think things like - "gee how did I shoot that 7 ?". Think more about how you shot those good tens and just keep repeating the good bits. Shame it aint quite that easy in practice, but the theory works.
Rob.
geez, didn't mean to start a malestrom
All points have been well taken. Steve....although you were in jest, I realized that I was wordy...always tend to do that.
I focus on the process for 10's. I always reward myself with an "atta-boy" for the 10's I shoot and try to replicate the procedure. I do not even think about the others.
The whole thing about the "system" is simply a way to measure overall increase in skill/decrease in area of hold while doing what (or trying to) it takes to get 10's consistently.
Thanks for indulging. And no, there is no need on my part for you to exit the forum. You were just fine. CraigE
I focus on the process for 10's. I always reward myself with an "atta-boy" for the 10's I shoot and try to replicate the procedure. I do not even think about the others.
The whole thing about the "system" is simply a way to measure overall increase in skill/decrease in area of hold while doing what (or trying to) it takes to get 10's consistently.
Thanks for indulging. And no, there is no need on my part for you to exit the forum. You were just fine. CraigE
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guest
back on track
The original post sounds like a good way to focus on hold refinement using the scoring rings on the target as one measurement, while focusing on the process.
The idea is to continually refine your hold. It sounds like you have an 8 ring hold if you don't mess it up. Perhaps the next step is to keep the outside of the holes inside the 8 ring. After that, go for 9s, etc.
I think that jumping on a lousy hold and getting "lucky" with a 10 is very dangerous! It helps your score on one shot, but gives you "positive" reinforcement for what was a poorly executed shot. Don't be tempted to try it again - it will ultimately slow your long term progress, and give you more of those "7 (or worse)" shots.
The idea is to continually refine your hold. It sounds like you have an 8 ring hold if you don't mess it up. Perhaps the next step is to keep the outside of the holes inside the 8 ring. After that, go for 9s, etc.
I think that jumping on a lousy hold and getting "lucky" with a 10 is very dangerous! It helps your score on one shot, but gives you "positive" reinforcement for what was a poorly executed shot. Don't be tempted to try it again - it will ultimately slow your long term progress, and give you more of those "7 (or worse)" shots.
Incremental program
I read the original post about the incremental program and began to apply it's principle. In my opinion it is a great way to concentrate on the basic shooting principles and get confidence on what you can achieve with consistancy. No matter what is the score, I know that if I keep them all within the nine ring, I will shoot 540 or better. I don't know if it is my subconcious, but trying to get all the shots eight or better helps me in concentrating and forgeting about my previous shot, you just shoot one at a time.
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thenikjones
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 6:59 am
- Location: Wrexham, UK
[quote="RobStubbs"]I may have misread some bits but I think what has been suggested is to focus on what you want to acheive and not what you don't want. If you set yourself "8's or better", then you are subconsciously accepting an 8 as OK. A bit like saying no 7's or 8's (whatever your target is). You want to aim for the good shots, i.e. mainly 10's and 9's but to keep all shots in the 8 ring (try to keep that out of your thought process though - at least whilst shooting each shot).
quote]
One training idea is to decide what you want to do (all in 8, all in 9, etc) and cut that ring from the target, then shoot a number of shots (10, 20, whatever). You aren't interested so much in where the good shots go, but where the flyers are. Then you concentrate on eliminating them. As you improve, cut out smaller rings.
Obviously you'll need to sight your pistol in first!
quote]
One training idea is to decide what you want to do (all in 8, all in 9, etc) and cut that ring from the target, then shoot a number of shots (10, 20, whatever). You aren't interested so much in where the good shots go, but where the flyers are. Then you concentrate on eliminating them. As you improve, cut out smaller rings.
Obviously you'll need to sight your pistol in first!
FWIW
although I have not "notched" another stroke for my goal program, I am getting closer to it. Shot a postal match tonight and shot 541. There was an errant shot or two, but the groups are definitely tighter. CraigE