Well, I've just read three pages of complaints, but haven't seen some issues addressed which are relevant. Further, having identified so many problems, what are we going to do about it?? Bitch, bitch, bitch??? That won't change anything.
First, lets face one critical fact. MANY shooters have never heard of USAS and don't even know that international shooting exists - or if they know that much, they don't know that shooting is an Olympic sport. I've lost count of how many people were surprised when I told them about it.
Second, forget NRA as part of the NGB. For many reasons it isn't likely to happen, and probably isn't a good idea. Also remember that NRA also sponsers international style matches, and has an international rule book which largely follows the ISSF rulebook.
Third, there are few USAS matches available to most shooters. They are concentrated in a few states, and occur in most cases only once or twice a year. This applies to junior as well as adult competition. Folks, it you don't have a chance to try it, you won't get to like it. For those of us who work at least full time, traveling three or four or more states away for a long weekend isn't in the books as a routine thing for both time and cost reasons. Yes, full up ISSF quality ranges are grossly expensive, but maybe there is an introductory level which can be very helpful (see later)
Every one enjoys bashing the media - not a little of it deserved. However, does USAS make an effort to teach sports reporters about "arcane" ISSF competition? Bring them to a range on a "media day" and not only explain what is going on, but let them get their hands dirty!!! Its hard to report on a sport you don't understand, and if you've tried it, you will be more likely to do a report - and a good report- when it is going on. It may be money well invested. And if done in the context of a major match which is already being covered (e.g. Pan Am Games, Olympics) not terribly expensive.
So what can we, USAS, USOC or whoever do? Well, I don't have a total plan, but here are a few more suggestions. Some of these may have been tried, but not, I think, as a consistent program - which is needed. This isn't a one shot one year cure I will describe.
USAS has to get an outreach program to the rest of the shooters about what it is and does, and the opportunities for major world competition. If relations with the NRA are good, perhaps USAS can obtain (for free) the club and member mailing lists from the NRA. I would target the clubs, especially junior clubs where the mystique of the Olympics is probably stronger than for many adult clubs. Send them information packets describing the disciplines and competitions. INclude some reduced size targets which they can use on their existing ranges - no 25 or 50 meter ranges required. Let them try the game. For juniors provide some very low cost individual and/or club memberships with BENEFITS for members. These benefits would be such things as training videos, videos of finals competitions, etc. Also provide printed material to supplement or duplicate the video so each kid can have their own copy. Get visits to the clubs by current or former Olympians or other internationally experienced shooters to talk about the experience and do some coaching. In effect GENERATE INTEREST IN THE SPORT.
Once you have interest, you need competition - adult and junior. Sponser some "semi-international" matches in conjunction with other bullseye matches. Here again cooperation with NRA would help. These matches would use reduced targets for existing ranges, permit use of the firearms already being used by the shooters. Perhaps for some matches, provide some coaching. Nothiing generates a desire to compete like competition. If a USAS rep can be present to talk about things, so much the better. Remember, these aren't PTOs. They are an introduction to the game.
A couple of times I mentioned coaching. Here is, to me, the BIG problem. I know that in my 50+ years of shooting I have rarely had good coaching available. While the fundamentals are the same, there are some significant differences between NRA and ISSF shooting which require specific coaching skills. Use the above steps to provide coaching clinics re ISSF shooting to current coaches and new coaches. Perhaps create a new coaching qualification level for these folk from which they can advance to the international coaching levels.
Well, those are the basics of my ideas. I hope that they resonate with some of you, and perhaps something to achieve their intended goals will occur. I know none of this is cheap, and the USAS budget is small, but this is seed money which is probably the best way go get those medals two or three Olympics down the pike. Other ideas are welcome.
interview with Bob Mitchell
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Olympian visit, coaching, coach training
Thanks for the insightful post Richard.
I would love to help with some programs that answer several of your questions.
I am an Olympic medalist (1992, 3P) with teaching and coaching experience. I have several training programs for groups and individuals. My favorite is the Coach&Shooter "Pairs" clinic. It is very affordable and offers high level coaching for the athletes and practical training for the coaches. I am also happy to help with media outreach during those events. I teach the NRA/USAS/CMP Coach certification course as well.
Anyone who is interested in having one in your area can contact me directly:
bobfoth@juno.com
A few of my favorite quotes from unsolicited feedback:
"...thank you again for helping me with everything. I can't say it enough. Thank you, thank you, thank you."
"...we've gotten rave reviews on your clinic."
"_____ shot his best in all 3 positions yesterday...Results of this kind will provide the clinic with a reputation and impact that will be hard to beat."
"I'm still hearing good comments about your clinic..._____ fired a 583 in a 3-P Air Match. He's been using his notebook a lot and its really helping. Its amazing to see a 12 year old doing this!"
"Bob Foth conducts coach/shooter clinics that are probably the best training opportunity available anywhere...This is an incredible opportunity that is well worth any amount of hassle."
"I have marveled over the improvement exhibited by _____'s attitude and shooting since the clinic. He's actually excited about shooting again, a rekindled spirit if you will."
I would love to help with some programs that answer several of your questions.
I am an Olympic medalist (1992, 3P) with teaching and coaching experience. I have several training programs for groups and individuals. My favorite is the Coach&Shooter "Pairs" clinic. It is very affordable and offers high level coaching for the athletes and practical training for the coaches. I am also happy to help with media outreach during those events. I teach the NRA/USAS/CMP Coach certification course as well.
Anyone who is interested in having one in your area can contact me directly:
bobfoth@juno.com
A few of my favorite quotes from unsolicited feedback:
"...thank you again for helping me with everything. I can't say it enough. Thank you, thank you, thank you."
"...we've gotten rave reviews on your clinic."
"_____ shot his best in all 3 positions yesterday...Results of this kind will provide the clinic with a reputation and impact that will be hard to beat."
"I'm still hearing good comments about your clinic..._____ fired a 583 in a 3-P Air Match. He's been using his notebook a lot and its really helping. Its amazing to see a 12 year old doing this!"
"Bob Foth conducts coach/shooter clinics that are probably the best training opportunity available anywhere...This is an incredible opportunity that is well worth any amount of hassle."
"I have marveled over the improvement exhibited by _____'s attitude and shooting since the clinic. He's actually excited about shooting again, a rekindled spirit if you will."
Mike,mikeschroeder wrote:HI
I remember seeing that VERY expensive targets are "required" for Rapid fire pistol. Can someone explain this one please? I just shot a Bullseye match with stationary targets, and you just don't shoot until you're told. Not a big deal, but still a MATCH.
Mike
Wichita KS
I'm assuming you've not watched a RF match. You need a ten point, twenty-five yard range. Two (2) shooters at a time can shoot. With stationary targets, I'm guessing it's tricky to accurately call late shots on the four second series, particularly when two shooters are firing together.
With turning targets or the nice electronic targets it's not an issue.
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Mike McDaniel
Actually, the situation with RF is worse than that.....
A target bay for RF consists of five targets side-by-side. The spacing is very precisely laid out in the rules - 75cm center-to-center. You've got a specified time (8,6, or 4) seconds to raise the pistol and shoot each target once.
Unfortunately, the way that the rules are written, the time is measured at the targets - which means that you actually have to have fired the last shot about 0.1 seconds earlier. The usual methods of handling this are either turning targets (the standard for years, costs ~$4,000/bay), or Suis-Ascor electronic targets (required for major international matches, costs ~$25,000/bay).
The upshot of all this is that there are about a dozen functioning RF bays in the United States. Perhaps a dozen more that are inactive.
I love RF dearly, but the brutal fact is that the range equipment is beyond the means of all but a handful of clubs - and the clubs that DO have the money usually have much better things to do with it. Which is why I suspect that RF may not be salvagable in the US. I would not abandon it, but I'd make FP and AP my main lines of attack.
I'd also keep RF's bitter lessons in mind when designing a rapid fire AP course of fire. In particular, it is essential that a RFA target bay be cheap enough for an individual shooter to buy, compact enough for that shooter to pack up and carry with him to a match, and fast-scoring enough to run the match and get everybody out at a reasonable hour. Personally, I favor a 3-target falling plate setup, and play with either the timing or plate sizes (or both) to increase the pressure on the shooters.
A target bay for RF consists of five targets side-by-side. The spacing is very precisely laid out in the rules - 75cm center-to-center. You've got a specified time (8,6, or 4) seconds to raise the pistol and shoot each target once.
Unfortunately, the way that the rules are written, the time is measured at the targets - which means that you actually have to have fired the last shot about 0.1 seconds earlier. The usual methods of handling this are either turning targets (the standard for years, costs ~$4,000/bay), or Suis-Ascor electronic targets (required for major international matches, costs ~$25,000/bay).
The upshot of all this is that there are about a dozen functioning RF bays in the United States. Perhaps a dozen more that are inactive.
I love RF dearly, but the brutal fact is that the range equipment is beyond the means of all but a handful of clubs - and the clubs that DO have the money usually have much better things to do with it. Which is why I suspect that RF may not be salvagable in the US. I would not abandon it, but I'd make FP and AP my main lines of attack.
I'd also keep RF's bitter lessons in mind when designing a rapid fire AP course of fire. In particular, it is essential that a RFA target bay be cheap enough for an individual shooter to buy, compact enough for that shooter to pack up and carry with him to a match, and fast-scoring enough to run the match and get everybody out at a reasonable hour. Personally, I favor a 3-target falling plate setup, and play with either the timing or plate sizes (or both) to increase the pressure on the shooters.
...more negativity...guess RF WILL go down.
After all, we couldn't *possibly* set the timers to set the stop beep at 3.9 seconds.
And even if we were to leave it at 4 seconds, I'm sure it would be just too much trouble to look at the darn display and see if there was an overtime shot and just deduct the highest scoring hit on the last target shot at.
And since the strings shot in RF are so incredibly LOOOOOOOONG [I mean eight (8) whole freaking seconds!!!] It would be IMPOSSIBLE to have both shooters prep, have one shooter fire one string, then the other shooter fire his string.
Especially if this means the difference between operating a $75 bay (one $150 timer, 2 shooters) vs. a $4000 bay (one shooter) and opening up the sport to newbies.
Because we ALL KNOW that if there is absolutely ANY DEVIATION from using Olympic quality ranges and equipment and shooting under Olympic conditions, we'll disrupt the space-time continuum and all known existence will come to an abrupt end.
Give me a f(*&ing break. No wonder RF is going down the tubes. Heck, maybe I'll just stick to bullseye and IPSC. At least they act like they *WANT* to shoot.
After all, we couldn't *possibly* set the timers to set the stop beep at 3.9 seconds.
And even if we were to leave it at 4 seconds, I'm sure it would be just too much trouble to look at the darn display and see if there was an overtime shot and just deduct the highest scoring hit on the last target shot at.
And since the strings shot in RF are so incredibly LOOOOOOOONG [I mean eight (8) whole freaking seconds!!!] It would be IMPOSSIBLE to have both shooters prep, have one shooter fire one string, then the other shooter fire his string.
Especially if this means the difference between operating a $75 bay (one $150 timer, 2 shooters) vs. a $4000 bay (one shooter) and opening up the sport to newbies.
Because we ALL KNOW that if there is absolutely ANY DEVIATION from using Olympic quality ranges and equipment and shooting under Olympic conditions, we'll disrupt the space-time continuum and all known existence will come to an abrupt end.
Give me a f(*&ing break. No wonder RF is going down the tubes. Heck, maybe I'll just stick to bullseye and IPSC. At least they act like they *WANT* to shoot.
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Mike McDaniel
Ever actually RUN a match? I have. Been there, done that, taken the abuse - at two separate ranges. Built a RF bay on my patio (hard to do when you live in a condo), too.
The Dirty Little Secret is that there are a whole lot of International shooters who are eager to complain about the facilities - not to mention the Conventional Bullseye shooters who are sniping at your back. It's one of the biggest reasons I shoot black powder now - black powder shooters are a LOT more adaptable, accomodating, and willing to pitch in when help is needed.
BTW, if you go digging for timers, I think you'll find it rather difficult to dig up one that can be set in fractional second increments.
The Dirty Little Secret is that there are a whole lot of International shooters who are eager to complain about the facilities - not to mention the Conventional Bullseye shooters who are sniping at your back. It's one of the biggest reasons I shoot black powder now - black powder shooters are a LOT more adaptable, accomodating, and willing to pitch in when help is needed.
BTW, if you go digging for timers, I think you'll find it rather difficult to dig up one that can be set in fractional second increments.
My reply in italics.
Mike McDaniel wrote:Ever actually RUN a match?
Helped run IPSC, Action Pistol, 3 position air rifle, and air pistol matches. No rapid fire (I was the only person interested in it at the time).
I have. Been there, done that, taken the abuse - at two separate ranges. Built a RF bay on my patio (hard to do when you live in a condo), too.
The Dirty Little Secret is that there are a whole lot of International shooters who are eager to complain about the facilities
Screw'em. They can either learn to shoot at facilities that aren't on par with Wolf Creek and have fun, or they can stay home and mope. I'd rather promote the first sentiment. Which are you advocating though, when you indicate that a bay HAS to have a $4000 turning target system? Is there really that profound a lack of creativity being exhibited here?
- not to mention the Conventional Bullseye shooters who are sniping at your back. It's one of the biggest reasons I shoot black powder now - black powder shooters are a LOT more adaptable, accomodating, and willing to pitch in when help is needed.
BTW, if you go digging for timers, I think you'll find it rather difficult to dig up one that can be set in fractional second increments.
I addressed this: "And even if we were to leave it at 4 seconds, I'm sure it would be just too much trouble to look at the darn display and see if there was an overtime shot and just deduct the highest scoring hit on the last target shot at. "
Ok, you folks have my interest peaked in this one topic, forgive my inexperience with the specifics of Rapid Fire but I might be able to tap into some design experience that some friends have. I know folks with too much time, brains and tooling on their hands who just love a challenge and happen to have access to machine shops as well as do circutry design with a heavy emphasis on precise timing.
1. You say current RF target systems are too pricey, correct? Would less expensive systems make the dicipline more viable?
2. What specifics are we talking about here, I.E. if I were to talk some folks into getting a basic, inexpensive system designed.... exactly what does it need to do?
-Hans
1. You say current RF target systems are too pricey, correct? Would less expensive systems make the dicipline more viable?
2. What specifics are we talking about here, I.E. if I were to talk some folks into getting a basic, inexpensive system designed.... exactly what does it need to do?
-Hans
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Mike Taylor
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:03 pm
- Location: Okanagan Valley, British Columbia
Change of topic
If we are going to talk specifics of construction of a Rapid Fire target system, we really owe it to the other readers to give this discussion a new subject heading, perhaps even a change of forum. Currently, the Olympic Pistol forum has a discussion on home-made rapid fire target frames. That might be a good place to continue this discussion.
Hans, perhaps you would be kind enough to repost your message in that forum? I'd look forward to taking part in the discussion there.
Hans, perhaps you would be kind enough to repost your message in that forum? I'd look forward to taking part in the discussion there.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
That would be TRUE. I'm a pistol shooter because it's shooting, and because I can do it all year, closer to home. What I'd rather be doing is Palma style shooting, but the closest range is in the next state, and I can't practice enough to do well. Bullseye is 20 miles away outside, 3 miles away inside. I really decided that I'd switched over by buying the Les Baer Hardball gun from Champion's Choice. I ONLY know about Bullseye at this point. Looking at the other stuff, especially since our 4-H club is connected with NRA, CMP, and USAS.GOVTMODEL wrote:
Mike,
I'm assuming you've not watched a RF match. You need a ten point, twenty-five yard range. Two (2) shooters at a time can shoot. With stationary targets, I'm guessing it's tricky to accurately call late shots on the four second series, particularly when two shooters are firing together.
With turning targets or the nice electronic targets it's not an issue.
Mike
See ISSF Rule 6.3.16 Range and Firing Point Standards for 25 m Pistol Ranges at http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/2003 ... 01_4th.pdf for the performance requirements.Hans wrote:Ok, you folks have my interest peaked in this one topic, forgive my inexperience with the specifics of Rapid Fire but I might be able to tap into some design experience that some friends have. I know folks with too much time, brains and tooling on their hands who just love a challenge and happen to have access to machine shops as well as do circutry design with a heavy emphasis on precise timing.
1. You say current RF target systems are too pricey, correct? Would less expensive systems make the dicipline more viable?
2. What specifics are we talking about here, I.E. if I were to talk some folks into getting a basic, inexpensive system designed.... exactly what does it need to do?
-Hans
-
Mike Taylor
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:03 pm
- Location: Okanagan Valley, British Columbia
Apology
Oops!
I didn't mean to sound so officious, nor to offend anyone. I was trying to be helpful. I felt that the current subject heading for this thread, "Interview with Bob Mitchell", wouldn't lead other readers to think that here was information on turning target frames. My thought was that a new thread, with a forum heading more appropriate to the content, might attract more participants.
I didn't mean to sound so officious, nor to offend anyone. I was trying to be helpful. I felt that the current subject heading for this thread, "Interview with Bob Mitchell", wouldn't lead other readers to think that here was information on turning target frames. My thought was that a new thread, with a forum heading more appropriate to the content, might attract more participants.
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Richard Newman
Bob Mitchell Interview
Bob Foth et al,
Bob, thanks for the kind words. I am very happy to see a successful competitor like yourself put some of that skill back into the sport. I expect that a number of the other team members do some as well. However, for the most effect, these efforts need to be part of an overall national program, which I think would have to be coordinated at some level via USAS as the NGB. And with the backing of the USAS, such a program would have greater "status" and attention from the world at large (not just shooters). If and how that could be initiated and operated, I don't know.
Back in the old days -'84 - '89 I was a volunteer official of the team - Vice Chairman of the SHooting Sports Research Council. I was there when the new range/Hq. was dedicated. When I moved from Colorado, I had to drop that work, and soon after the Council was disbanded (unrelated reasons!).
At any rate I have not been in contact with the Springs regularly since then, and haven't emailed with Bob Mitchell in about 2 years. So I don't really know what is going on there now. I'm sure there would be problems setting up a program, but I feel that for the future of the sport, we HAVE to do something soon.
I do hope that someone in the Springs is reading these threads, and will take some note of the issues and maybe take some action. I am willing to help to the extent I can, but that can be limited. Despite being ancient of days (my grandson, the 2000 year old man, may be able to count that high, but I don't have that much stamina...), I work more than full time, and currently my free time is largely limited to weekends. However, count me in for whatever I can do. I also hope some of the others on this thread will indicate some interest in these issues, and try and DO something. Complaining is fun, but it don't chop wood for the fire.
If you want to reach me, my email is rnewman@toast.net
Keep up the good work, Bob.
RIchard Newman
Bob, thanks for the kind words. I am very happy to see a successful competitor like yourself put some of that skill back into the sport. I expect that a number of the other team members do some as well. However, for the most effect, these efforts need to be part of an overall national program, which I think would have to be coordinated at some level via USAS as the NGB. And with the backing of the USAS, such a program would have greater "status" and attention from the world at large (not just shooters). If and how that could be initiated and operated, I don't know.
Back in the old days -'84 - '89 I was a volunteer official of the team - Vice Chairman of the SHooting Sports Research Council. I was there when the new range/Hq. was dedicated. When I moved from Colorado, I had to drop that work, and soon after the Council was disbanded (unrelated reasons!).
At any rate I have not been in contact with the Springs regularly since then, and haven't emailed with Bob Mitchell in about 2 years. So I don't really know what is going on there now. I'm sure there would be problems setting up a program, but I feel that for the future of the sport, we HAVE to do something soon.
I do hope that someone in the Springs is reading these threads, and will take some note of the issues and maybe take some action. I am willing to help to the extent I can, but that can be limited. Despite being ancient of days (my grandson, the 2000 year old man, may be able to count that high, but I don't have that much stamina...), I work more than full time, and currently my free time is largely limited to weekends. However, count me in for whatever I can do. I also hope some of the others on this thread will indicate some interest in these issues, and try and DO something. Complaining is fun, but it don't chop wood for the fire.
If you want to reach me, my email is rnewman@toast.net
Keep up the good work, Bob.
RIchard Newman