I was just wondering wether or not center hold is a viable option or not in 10m air pistol? It seems to make sense to me that there is at least something concrete, the center of the target to aim at? Do any pro's use this or am I way off base trying it? Currenty I'm shooting sub six and trying to remeber how much white was showing when I hit the ten. Any thoughts or hints would help tremendously!
Thanx
Center hold for 10m air pistol, Good idea, Bad idea???
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Dan Hankins
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:53 am
- Location: Southwest Missouri
It may not make any difference
I am not a pro, but I shoot a lot. I have been experimenting with sight picture. I have used sub six, six, and center hold.
What I am seeing is that if you cannot hold the sight picture during the shot, it makes no difference. I have a 5 mm front sight on a Morini and it is wide enough that I have no trouble seeing the sights on the black center. So the center hold poses no problem. I experienced the same problem you mnetioned with the sub six hold. The answere is to hold your sight picture in the center of the blank area, and adjust the POI to match. The center is not too hard to judge. The six o'clock hold is probably the most difficult for me to use. There is absolutely no room for error, and takes a great deal of concentration to make sure there is no part of the black that is covered by the front sight and no light between the black and the front sight.
I have set up some of my pistols to shoot sub six and some to shoot center. Again maintaining sight alignment/sight picture while executing the shot seems to be the big variable. If you can maintain the sight picture you could adjust the POI to anywhere in relation to the POA, and, as long as the sight picture was maintained, the shot would be a 10.
So, I think that you should use the sight picture that you like, and try others, but work on the mechanics of maintaining the sight picture much haredr than choosing a point of aim.
Respectfully,
Bubba
What I am seeing is that if you cannot hold the sight picture during the shot, it makes no difference. I have a 5 mm front sight on a Morini and it is wide enough that I have no trouble seeing the sights on the black center. So the center hold poses no problem. I experienced the same problem you mnetioned with the sub six hold. The answere is to hold your sight picture in the center of the blank area, and adjust the POI to match. The center is not too hard to judge. The six o'clock hold is probably the most difficult for me to use. There is absolutely no room for error, and takes a great deal of concentration to make sure there is no part of the black that is covered by the front sight and no light between the black and the front sight.
I have set up some of my pistols to shoot sub six and some to shoot center. Again maintaining sight alignment/sight picture while executing the shot seems to be the big variable. If you can maintain the sight picture you could adjust the POI to anywhere in relation to the POA, and, as long as the sight picture was maintained, the shot would be a 10.
So, I think that you should use the sight picture that you like, and try others, but work on the mechanics of maintaining the sight picture much haredr than choosing a point of aim.
Respectfully,
Bubba
This is one of those "try it and use what works for you" things. I can't tell you what is best, because everyone is different. There doesn't seem to be a consensus among the top shooters. I think I hear more people using center hold, but it is not universal.
I shoot 6 O'Clock and it works for me. I recently tried center hold and it didn't work. It never felt comfortable, and my groups were bigger. So, I went back to 6. Maybe in a year or two I will try again. Maybe not.
Try each for at least a few and preferrably several shooting sessions, long enough to get comfortable. Use the one that works for you.
Good Luck,
Steve T
I shoot 6 O'Clock and it works for me. I recently tried center hold and it didn't work. It never felt comfortable, and my groups were bigger. So, I went back to 6. Maybe in a year or two I will try again. Maybe not.
Try each for at least a few and preferrably several shooting sessions, long enough to get comfortable. Use the one that works for you.
Good Luck,
Steve T
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Mike McDaniel
Your mileage will vary a LOT with 6-o'clock versus center hold. Personally, I use both with equal success, but it will depend a lot on the light. 6-o'clock or sub-6 works well when shooting from a covered range onto brightly lit targets - what you will find quite often on outdoor ranges in good weather. The more light you have on the sights, the more likely that a center hold will work well. If shooting outdoors, or if indoors in light that has no dark areas, center hold will work well.
One trick - if you use center hold, go to a BRIGHT front sight. Fluorescent orange poster paint works very well - your eyes go RIGHT to it. It's an old black powder shooter's trick.....
One trick - if you use center hold, go to a BRIGHT front sight. Fluorescent orange poster paint works very well - your eyes go RIGHT to it. It's an old black powder shooter's trick.....
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
This topic can become quite contentious because it's very much a matter of personal preference. And that preference is likely based on the fact that we each have our own unique eyes, and to a large extent, we each shoot in somewhat different conditions.
I'll throw in the results of my recent experimentation with sight picture. Keep in mind this experimentation was done in my basement airgun range with flourescent lighting throughout, except halogen lighting at the shooting bench. Experiements were carried out with both a Morini 162 and an LP10. In both cases the front sight is 5mm wide.
I had been using a deep sub-6 hold for both FP and AP, but decided to play with centre-hold in AP as an experiment. I adjusted both pistols to shoot centre hold (about 25 clicks of vertical adjustment required from my deep sub-6 position). I then proceeded over the span of three weeks to shoot each pistol in different conditions (ie well rested, tired, short training session or 100-shot training session, etc). All together I probably put 1500-2000 pellets downrange in this configuration. Some will say this is inadequate for a test of this nature, and may indeed be correct in saying so.
My observations are as follows... When I was doing the right thing, the front sight was very clearly a dark black while the target was a fuzzy grey. This produced some contrast which appeared to allow me to properly see my front sight. When I was fatigued it seemed to be more difficult to force my eyes to clearly see the front sight. It also made me more aware of the glare coming from my rear sight and caused me to reduce the depth (not width) of the rear notch on the LP10. This cleared up most of the glare problems.
In general, I found that I shot almost as well with centre hold as I had with sub-6, but only when I was very well rested. When I was tired the results were soemwhat less consistant with centre hold. The one major observation that I can make is that with centre-hold I would have the occasional flyer which I couldn't call. By saying this I mean that once in every 20 or 30 shots I'd drop one into the 7 or 6 ring without having had any visible indication of error as the shot went off. I'm not a great shot, but by and large I can call my shots as to quadrant and scoring ring, even if it's a bad flyer. With my sights adjusted for centre hold there were some shots that I had no idea were flyers. This kind of surprise shakes ones confidence unnecessarily.
There you have it - the results of my recent experimentation, in a nutshell. (But some folks will say that things in a nutshell are only good for squirrels!) For those who wish to conduct similar experiments I wish you good luck and hope you'll post your findings here.
I'll throw in the results of my recent experimentation with sight picture. Keep in mind this experimentation was done in my basement airgun range with flourescent lighting throughout, except halogen lighting at the shooting bench. Experiements were carried out with both a Morini 162 and an LP10. In both cases the front sight is 5mm wide.
I had been using a deep sub-6 hold for both FP and AP, but decided to play with centre-hold in AP as an experiment. I adjusted both pistols to shoot centre hold (about 25 clicks of vertical adjustment required from my deep sub-6 position). I then proceeded over the span of three weeks to shoot each pistol in different conditions (ie well rested, tired, short training session or 100-shot training session, etc). All together I probably put 1500-2000 pellets downrange in this configuration. Some will say this is inadequate for a test of this nature, and may indeed be correct in saying so.
My observations are as follows... When I was doing the right thing, the front sight was very clearly a dark black while the target was a fuzzy grey. This produced some contrast which appeared to allow me to properly see my front sight. When I was fatigued it seemed to be more difficult to force my eyes to clearly see the front sight. It also made me more aware of the glare coming from my rear sight and caused me to reduce the depth (not width) of the rear notch on the LP10. This cleared up most of the glare problems.
In general, I found that I shot almost as well with centre hold as I had with sub-6, but only when I was very well rested. When I was tired the results were soemwhat less consistant with centre hold. The one major observation that I can make is that with centre-hold I would have the occasional flyer which I couldn't call. By saying this I mean that once in every 20 or 30 shots I'd drop one into the 7 or 6 ring without having had any visible indication of error as the shot went off. I'm not a great shot, but by and large I can call my shots as to quadrant and scoring ring, even if it's a bad flyer. With my sights adjusted for centre hold there were some shots that I had no idea were flyers. This kind of surprise shakes ones confidence unnecessarily.
There you have it - the results of my recent experimentation, in a nutshell. (But some folks will say that things in a nutshell are only good for squirrels!) For those who wish to conduct similar experiments I wish you good luck and hope you'll post your findings here.
I started with a centre hold. But eventually, as my eyes aged, ( I was in my late 30's, early 40's then) or if the lighting was not great, I couldn't keep focused on the front sight. Black on black on black.
Also, as time went on, my arm seemed to want to settle & hold steady lower than the centre.
So, went to a 6 o'clock hold. This worked for awhile, but found I was over-refining my sight picture, holding too long, letting my eyes sneak down to the target to make sure I was holding just in that perfect place. And my arm didn't seem to want to sit there nicely.
So, went to sub-six. Low & behold, could see the front sight clearly, the arm loved that place to settle into - & it did settle to the same place between the black & the bottom of the target every time. Was also able to see what happened all the way throught the shot. Just like shooting on the back of the target.
So, try whichever way, but be aware of what your body & eyes want to do, without forcing it.
Also, as time went on, my arm seemed to want to settle & hold steady lower than the centre.
So, went to a 6 o'clock hold. This worked for awhile, but found I was over-refining my sight picture, holding too long, letting my eyes sneak down to the target to make sure I was holding just in that perfect place. And my arm didn't seem to want to sit there nicely.
So, went to sub-six. Low & behold, could see the front sight clearly, the arm loved that place to settle into - & it did settle to the same place between the black & the bottom of the target every time. Was also able to see what happened all the way throught the shot. Just like shooting on the back of the target.
So, try whichever way, but be aware of what your body & eyes want to do, without forcing it.
Arm settling lower...
Please don't throw rocks but I have a really dumb question...
Isn't the centerline of the bore in the same position relative to the target regardless of what sight picture you use?
Thanks!
JLK
Isn't the centerline of the bore in the same position relative to the target regardless of what sight picture you use?
Thanks!
JLK
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Mike Taylor
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:03 pm
- Location: Okanagan Valley, British Columbia
bore alignment
John,
Yes, it is!
One could hold the gun so that the shot hits the target where one desires (in the "ten", presumably) and then, without moving the gun, one could adjust the sight for the desired sight picture (centre, six, or sub-six).
Practically, of course, setting your sights in this manner is really, really difficult to do - unless you use a machine rest. It is much easier to select a sight picture and then move the gun (by means of sight adjustment) so that the shot hits where you desire.
Yes, it is!
One could hold the gun so that the shot hits the target where one desires (in the "ten", presumably) and then, without moving the gun, one could adjust the sight for the desired sight picture (centre, six, or sub-six).
Practically, of course, setting your sights in this manner is really, really difficult to do - unless you use a machine rest. It is much easier to select a sight picture and then move the gun (by means of sight adjustment) so that the shot hits where you desire.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK