Awhile back I posted an opinion that the use of tv scoring displays give an unfair advantage, in the form of immediate feed back, to those who can aford them esp in AP where spotting scopes aren't allowed (internationally). I was told, repeatedly, the reason for them was for officials to use, not the competeters.
If you look at the Atens photo's you will see that each possition has its own display mounted infront of the shooter pointing up at a steap angle. This appears to be provided for the shooters use. For an "Official" to use this display he woud have to be standing where the shooter is or very very close to him/her.
While I think the use of diplays still gives advantage to those who can aford them; I now wonder if the pretence that moniters are for "Officials" has been droped?
Atens TV Scoring Displays
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Paul in Denver
Arent we all subject to similar economic disadvantages which we must overcome in order to compete? For instance:
I cant afford a personal coach - WC competitors can
I cant afford to practice with match grade ammo - WC competitors can
I cant afford the best gun - WC competitors can
I cant afford to travel to all the prep matches - WC competitors can
I cant . . . (you fill in the blanks)
I think the only realistic way to level the playing field is to ensure that once the competitor reaches the match - they are all treated even handedly.
The logical result of prohibiting a match accomodation simply on the basis that the same accommodation was not available to everyone prior to the match is a monumental if not impossible task. Where would it end?
If I were competing at a match where the availability of resources was to be based on the lowest common denominator, I would demand that the match be fired in a cold damp basement lit only by a bare light bulb while my wife yelled, "Stop making all that noise and take out the trash!"
:-)
I cant afford a personal coach - WC competitors can
I cant afford to practice with match grade ammo - WC competitors can
I cant afford the best gun - WC competitors can
I cant afford to travel to all the prep matches - WC competitors can
I cant . . . (you fill in the blanks)
I think the only realistic way to level the playing field is to ensure that once the competitor reaches the match - they are all treated even handedly.
The logical result of prohibiting a match accomodation simply on the basis that the same accommodation was not available to everyone prior to the match is a monumental if not impossible task. Where would it end?
If I were competing at a match where the availability of resources was to be based on the lowest common denominator, I would demand that the match be fired in a cold damp basement lit only by a bare light bulb while my wife yelled, "Stop making all that noise and take out the trash!"
:-)
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Rolyf
You may not be aware that at the Olympics, and other major international or national events, the shooters are not shooting at the usual paper targets. What they shoot at is a black circle of 'nothing' (space) in the middle of a traditional sized target. That's right, there are NO rings on their target! Instead the location of 'hits' is determined by microphones which by triangulation of the sound wave figure to the tenth where the shot would have hit! The same target is left up for 'sighting in' and the entire match.
So without the monitor showing the COMPUTED shot there'd be no way for the shooter to know where it hit! Because it didn't HIT anything! How's that grab ya?
So without the monitor showing the COMPUTED shot there'd be no way for the shooter to know where it hit! Because it didn't HIT anything! How's that grab ya?
Re: Atens TV Scoring Displays
If you think the 'immediate feedback' is an advantage then you have not tried to train a shooter NOT to use the 'immediate' scoring avilable with ESTs. Many shooters when first exposed to electronic scoring forget all they have learned about follow through to look at the display screen.Bob W wrote:Awhile back I posted an opinion that the use of tv scoring displays give an unfair advantage, in the form of immediate feed back, to those who can aford them esp in AP where spotting scopes aren't allowed (internationally). I was told, repeatedly, the reason for them was for officials to use, not the competeters.
If you look at the Atens photo's you will see that each possition has its own display mounted infront of the shooter pointing up at a steap angle. This appears to be provided for the shooters use. For an "Official" to use this display he woud have to be standing where the shooter is or very very close to him/her.
While I think the use of diplays still gives advantage to those who can aford them; I now wonder if the pretence that moniters are for "Officials" has been droped?
Some shooters turn the screen so they cannot be tempted to look immediately after firing a shot. The rules "It is not permitted to obscure the shooter’s monitor-screen or any part of the screen. The whole screen must be visible to the Jury and Range Personnel." is no pretence!
Not all officials need a guide dog and white cane... some of us can see the needed information quite well from behind the shooters without "standing where the shooter is or very very close to him/her".
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bob W
Poposal
Spencer, RollyF, and Paul in Denver,
I realise moniters and electroninic scoring are here to stay and the march of tecnology continues. What I'm don't agree with is is how the way the information displayed on them. By modifieing the presentation of information to competiters moniters to simulate most of the world shoots. What I propose is useing the technology to create a true level playing field that mimics the accepted minimum standard untill shuch standards can be raised.
To do this I propose the display would be linked to a demand/ or "target send" button. To start shooting a copetater would press the "target send" button and the target on the display would reduce in size simulating a standered target being run out to match distance on an electronic carrier. Once the apropriate time had elapsed the sencers would start recording and an indecater light would light up to let the competiter know he/she can shoot. In AP, where using optices aren't allowed, a competeter could elect to view the shot by pushing the "target send" button on the display, this would cause the target sencers to stop recording and the display to increase in size at a set rate comprable to the spead of an electronic target return, to resume shooting the reverse would happen. After a set number of shots the "target send" button would need to be pushed and repushed to simmulate the changing of targets. For FP where glassing after each shot is normal, the shooter would manualy hold down the "target send" button to see the result of his shot simmulating useing a scope.
I realise moniters and electroninic scoring are here to stay and the march of tecnology continues. What I'm don't agree with is is how the way the information displayed on them. By modifieing the presentation of information to competiters moniters to simulate most of the world shoots. What I propose is useing the technology to create a true level playing field that mimics the accepted minimum standard untill shuch standards can be raised.
To do this I propose the display would be linked to a demand/ or "target send" button. To start shooting a copetater would press the "target send" button and the target on the display would reduce in size simulating a standered target being run out to match distance on an electronic carrier. Once the apropriate time had elapsed the sencers would start recording and an indecater light would light up to let the competiter know he/she can shoot. In AP, where using optices aren't allowed, a competeter could elect to view the shot by pushing the "target send" button on the display, this would cause the target sencers to stop recording and the display to increase in size at a set rate comprable to the spead of an electronic target return, to resume shooting the reverse would happen. After a set number of shots the "target send" button would need to be pushed and repushed to simmulate the changing of targets. For FP where glassing after each shot is normal, the shooter would manualy hold down the "target send" button to see the result of his shot simmulating useing a scope.
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JJ
Bob --
You have got to be kidding me! All the other posts by Paul, Spencer, and Roly are right on target. I shoot every match I can and have made steady progress by focusing on the fundamentals -- my AP scores started at 500 4-years ago and I'm now consistently hitting 550-563. My FP scores were under 500 and are now in the 530 range. Guess what -- every match is different -- electronic, paper, reduced distances -- not to mention mentally.
If you are more interested in "tinkering" with the devices used to record "score" buy a subscription to an engineering magazine. On the other hand -- if you are competitive shooter interested in shooting deep 10s focus on something really important -- stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control, and follow through come to mind. Anything else is a waste of time.....
JJ
You have got to be kidding me! All the other posts by Paul, Spencer, and Roly are right on target. I shoot every match I can and have made steady progress by focusing on the fundamentals -- my AP scores started at 500 4-years ago and I'm now consistently hitting 550-563. My FP scores were under 500 and are now in the 530 range. Guess what -- every match is different -- electronic, paper, reduced distances -- not to mention mentally.
If you are more interested in "tinkering" with the devices used to record "score" buy a subscription to an engineering magazine. On the other hand -- if you are competitive shooter interested in shooting deep 10s focus on something really important -- stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control, and follow through come to mind. Anything else is a waste of time.....
JJ
Bob,
I am pretty fortunate to shoot on electronic targets quite often since I live quite close to Bisley in the UK. What I would say is that it makes absolutely no difference to your scores whether you shoot paper or electronic. I did think it enabled you to shoot quicker, which I guess it does in theory, in practice it makes no difference whatsoever.
In this day and age where we are told that the sport must appeal to TV audiences to continue then surely electronics and instant scoring are a must ? Lets just go with technology rather than try and hold things back. I'm sure in the next ten years there will be more dramatic changes to shooting that will make these kinds of advances insignificant.
Rob.
I am pretty fortunate to shoot on electronic targets quite often since I live quite close to Bisley in the UK. What I would say is that it makes absolutely no difference to your scores whether you shoot paper or electronic. I did think it enabled you to shoot quicker, which I guess it does in theory, in practice it makes no difference whatsoever.
In this day and age where we are told that the sport must appeal to TV audiences to continue then surely electronics and instant scoring are a must ? Lets just go with technology rather than try and hold things back. I'm sure in the next ten years there will be more dramatic changes to shooting that will make these kinds of advances insignificant.
Rob.
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bob W
Bob,
I know exactly what you mean. It is so frustrating to have to adjust to a different range setting every time. I am glad you bought this up. I have shot in many tryout matches and national championships over the last 8 years and what I really want to see the 4-bull target and let us shoot three shots a bull. The groove I get in with that target is perfect. I get a little break every 12 shots. My best score is on that target.
Just kidding.
JJ, You are right on. Focus on the basics and in most cases you have a day to train so use it to get used to the range and figure out how things work. then on match day you can put all your focus on those all important BASICS.
I know exactly what you mean. It is so frustrating to have to adjust to a different range setting every time. I am glad you bought this up. I have shot in many tryout matches and national championships over the last 8 years and what I really want to see the 4-bull target and let us shoot three shots a bull. The groove I get in with that target is perfect. I get a little break every 12 shots. My best score is on that target.
Just kidding.
JJ, You are right on. Focus on the basics and in most cases you have a day to train so use it to get used to the range and figure out how things work. then on match day you can put all your focus on those all important BASICS.
It's very easy to have your own "electronic target" by aiming a home video camera at the target and having it plugged into a nearby TV ...
One thing that I like about the "real" electronic targets is the traveling Center of Mass indicator. It was very cool, to me, that the Center of Mass indicator was a "deep ten," at the last couple of Nationals that I shot at. If it's not centered ... you can use it to adjust your sights.
One thing that I like about the "real" electronic targets is the traveling Center of Mass indicator. It was very cool, to me, that the Center of Mass indicator was a "deep ten," at the last couple of Nationals that I shot at. If it's not centered ... you can use it to adjust your sights.
First of all, whoever would tell you the monitors were just for the officials' use must have been high.
Secondly, it's all about coping strategies. We all have our ranges or shooting venues that have their idiosyncracies, with equipment that can be afforded. I trained on cardboard, hung from the ceiling. When I knew I was going to an event with electronics, I cut out green & red "lights" (for Sport Pistol) & taped them on to my target holder. I have past teammates who practiced outdoors in -15F before heading south to a World Cup.
We then adapt.
In the book "Seven Steps to Peak Performance" the author suggests you go to a venue ahead of time, if you can. Look at it, hear it, smell it, take it in. Then enjoy what is offered to you. Your frame of mind needs to be positive to any set-up. If you have confidence in your own abilities, then whatever set-up you come across doesn't matter. If it's cardboard with a target stuck to it, or electronics, & the speed of changing a target is slow or fast, it's still a target.
Sorry, Bob W., I think you could use a little practice on the positive thinking.
A friend & teammate shot on electronics before I did. The thought of them frightened me. She loved them. So, I kept saying to myself " If _____loves them, they must be good. They must be good 'cause she said so. I'll love them too." Guess what? I loved them.
And basically, you don't have a choice. If you're going to shoot at this level, this is what you get. So you might as well be positive about it because it's going to constantly be changing.
Secondly, it's all about coping strategies. We all have our ranges or shooting venues that have their idiosyncracies, with equipment that can be afforded. I trained on cardboard, hung from the ceiling. When I knew I was going to an event with electronics, I cut out green & red "lights" (for Sport Pistol) & taped them on to my target holder. I have past teammates who practiced outdoors in -15F before heading south to a World Cup.
We then adapt.
In the book "Seven Steps to Peak Performance" the author suggests you go to a venue ahead of time, if you can. Look at it, hear it, smell it, take it in. Then enjoy what is offered to you. Your frame of mind needs to be positive to any set-up. If you have confidence in your own abilities, then whatever set-up you come across doesn't matter. If it's cardboard with a target stuck to it, or electronics, & the speed of changing a target is slow or fast, it's still a target.
Sorry, Bob W., I think you could use a little practice on the positive thinking.
A friend & teammate shot on electronics before I did. The thought of them frightened me. She loved them. So, I kept saying to myself " If _____loves them, they must be good. They must be good 'cause she said so. I'll love them too." Guess what? I loved them.
And basically, you don't have a choice. If you're going to shoot at this level, this is what you get. So you might as well be positive about it because it's going to constantly be changing.
When I go to the range I often shoot at different points ... I want to be able to adapt. If conditions are "bad," if I'm not feeling well ... I shoot anyway ... one day you might be at a "big" match ... and be up against the same conditions. No use only being able to shoot well under your "perfect" conditions ...
Mako,
That is a great point. I often do not train because I am feeling tired after a long day at work. This is a good time to train and work on focusing on basics and not forming bad habits by feeling like you have to shoot so you do. Then I can see bad habits forming because you are just showing up to send lead down range to say that you "trained". I know I have been guilty of this.
I am going to go train now.
That is a great point. I often do not train because I am feeling tired after a long day at work. This is a good time to train and work on focusing on basics and not forming bad habits by feeling like you have to shoot so you do. Then I can see bad habits forming because you are just showing up to send lead down range to say that you "trained". I know I have been guilty of this.
I am going to go train now.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Doesn't leave much in the way of targets to post for history. Our local coach has the targets up for the top three shooters in his last match. Some of the kids had VERY high scores. Can't leave eletronic nothing to show to next year's shooters.Rolyf wrote:You may not be aware that at the Olympics, and other major international or national events, the shooters are not shooting at the usual paper targets. What they shoot at is a black circle of 'nothing' (space) in the middle of a traditional sized target. That's right, there are NO rings on their target! Instead the location of 'hits' is determined by microphones which by triangulation of the sound wave figure to the tenth where the shot would have hit! The same target is left up for 'sighting in' and the entire match.
So without the monitor showing the COMPUTED shot there'd be no way for the shooter to know where it hit! Because it didn't HIT anything! How's that grab ya?
Just my $0.02
Mike
Wichita KS
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Mako's target printouts reminded me of what happened to me in Atlanta a few years back. The match was in late June, and this New Englander had heard how steamy Hotlanta gets in the Summer. Naturally the warmest thing I wore to the range was a t-shirt, and a light one at that.
Litttle did I realize that the thermostatic controls for the building were out of whack and had only two settings, Off and Arctic. Every shooter on the line was mentioning how cold it was (mentioning, not complaining). I was actually shivering slightly when the match started and put a shot into the 6 ring at 10 o'clock. Fortunately it was during sighting in. Unfortunately the hole in the target stayed there for the entire match because that's the way it is with electronic targets!
So here I am, first time at the bigs, and I have to look downrange and see a very conspicuous 6 every time I brought my sights across the target. Talk about opportunity to learn to focus on only the next shot!
The next day I bought a nifty Pilkguns sweatshirt, one of the last, and was quite comfortable on the line dressed for a Fall day. Shot 10 points better, too.
Litttle did I realize that the thermostatic controls for the building were out of whack and had only two settings, Off and Arctic. Every shooter on the line was mentioning how cold it was (mentioning, not complaining). I was actually shivering slightly when the match started and put a shot into the 6 ring at 10 o'clock. Fortunately it was during sighting in. Unfortunately the hole in the target stayed there for the entire match because that's the way it is with electronic targets!
So here I am, first time at the bigs, and I have to look downrange and see a very conspicuous 6 every time I brought my sights across the target. Talk about opportunity to learn to focus on only the next shot!
The next day I bought a nifty Pilkguns sweatshirt, one of the last, and was quite comfortable on the line dressed for a Fall day. Shot 10 points better, too.