All, I am composing a letter to my State Rep on the subject of Michigan firearm laws, which currently classify any rifled barrel projectile firing device as a firearm. US Federal law, of course, does not consider airguns to be firearms.
I know in the UK they have drawn a line of 12 ft-lbs of muzzle energy to be the line at which an airgun is a firearm. Is this true in most of Europe and Canada.
I will hold off on sending my letter for a couple days until I see some responses.
JPM
Firearm vs. Non-Firearm
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
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- Location: Ruislip, UK
Firearm v Non-Firearm
Dear JPM
In Australia all air rifles and air pistols are treated as firearms and you must be fully licensed to own one. They are considered to be as lethal as a .577 H&H Express double rifle.
Actually the way the laws are written here, blowing a pea out of a drinking straw could probably get you fined for using a firearm as well. I know there is a move afoot to have toy guns banned. Replica pistols require full licensing. Don't know about water pistols but I wouldn't want to test the law on these either.
Regards
Tom
In Australia all air rifles and air pistols are treated as firearms and you must be fully licensed to own one. They are considered to be as lethal as a .577 H&H Express double rifle.
Actually the way the laws are written here, blowing a pea out of a drinking straw could probably get you fined for using a firearm as well. I know there is a move afoot to have toy guns banned. Replica pistols require full licensing. Don't know about water pistols but I wouldn't want to test the law on these either.
Regards
Tom
Tom
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Fortitudo Dei
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:30 pm
- Location: New Zealand
New Zealand is thankfully more sensible than Australia in this regard. Airguns (i.e. both pistols and rifles) are not regarded as "firearms" (as defined by the legislation), but are controlled under that same legislation (Arms Act 1983).
The gist of it is that anyone aged 18 or older can buy and use an airgun. You can buy one at the age of 16 IF you also hold a standard ("A" category) firearms license (entitled the owner to buy and use rifles and shotguns). Those under the age of 16 may only use an airgun under the direct supervision of someone aged 16-18 who holds a license, or anyone aged 18 or older. There are no limits on power levels or how the airgun is powered (air / spring / CO2). There is a special category for "specially dangerous airguns", but I know of no examples of one being classified as such though I suspect something like a fully automatic air rifle might come under this.
If you are interested in looking at the legislation (IMHO, one of the most sensible in the Commonwealth) you can see it by pointing your browser to
http://www.legislation.govt.nz
Click on "statutes", click on "A", and select "Arms Act 1983".
Someone has written a good summary of the NZ legislation (though it largely excludes airguns) at http://www.julianwinston.com/guns/nz_guns.php
The gist of it is that anyone aged 18 or older can buy and use an airgun. You can buy one at the age of 16 IF you also hold a standard ("A" category) firearms license (entitled the owner to buy and use rifles and shotguns). Those under the age of 16 may only use an airgun under the direct supervision of someone aged 16-18 who holds a license, or anyone aged 18 or older. There are no limits on power levels or how the airgun is powered (air / spring / CO2). There is a special category for "specially dangerous airguns", but I know of no examples of one being classified as such though I suspect something like a fully automatic air rifle might come under this.
If you are interested in looking at the legislation (IMHO, one of the most sensible in the Commonwealth) you can see it by pointing your browser to
http://www.legislation.govt.nz
Click on "statutes", click on "A", and select "Arms Act 1983".
Someone has written a good summary of the NZ legislation (though it largely excludes airguns) at http://www.julianwinston.com/guns/nz_guns.php
Last edited by Fortitudo Dei on Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It's a bloody pity that the NZ Prime Minister couldn't talk some sense into ours. Theoretically these matters are a state issue but the Commonwealth has sort of "taken over" in this area and is forcing its requirements on all of the states.
Don't let your pollies go down our path. It is NOT fun.
Regards
Tom
Don't let your pollies go down our path. It is NOT fun.
Regards
Tom
Tom
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
I'll throw in a bit of additional data here...
Most airguns are stamped with a symbol that is mandated by German law. This symbol is the capital letter F inside a pentagon-shaped line. This "pentagon F" or CIP stamping indicates the airgun produces less than 7.5 joules of muzzle energy and thus is not a firearm under German law. The British standards of 6 & 12 foot pounds are both greater than 7.5 joules, therefore any airgun bearing the Pentagon F marking is a non-firearm in Britain, as well as in several other European countries.
Canadian law is another kettle of fish (and it's a pretty fishy smelling kettle too!). At the moment Canadian law classifies any device capable of propelling a projectile in excess of 500 fps (or 152.4 m/s) as a firearm. A subsequent law (Bill C-10A) has been passed but not yet fully enacted. This Bill would place a muzzle energy standard on the firearms classification. The net result of C-10A will be to provide for classification as a non-firearm those devices which produce less than 500 fps OR less than 5.7 joules of muzzle energy (yes, 5.7 joules, NOT the internationally-accepted standard of 7.5 joules).
There is a group of Canadian target shooters who are actively involved in attempts to have the Pentagon F symbol accepted as the means by which firearm/non-firearm classification is made. Wish us luck!
Mark.
Most airguns are stamped with a symbol that is mandated by German law. This symbol is the capital letter F inside a pentagon-shaped line. This "pentagon F" or CIP stamping indicates the airgun produces less than 7.5 joules of muzzle energy and thus is not a firearm under German law. The British standards of 6 & 12 foot pounds are both greater than 7.5 joules, therefore any airgun bearing the Pentagon F marking is a non-firearm in Britain, as well as in several other European countries.
Canadian law is another kettle of fish (and it's a pretty fishy smelling kettle too!). At the moment Canadian law classifies any device capable of propelling a projectile in excess of 500 fps (or 152.4 m/s) as a firearm. A subsequent law (Bill C-10A) has been passed but not yet fully enacted. This Bill would place a muzzle energy standard on the firearms classification. The net result of C-10A will be to provide for classification as a non-firearm those devices which produce less than 500 fps OR less than 5.7 joules of muzzle energy (yes, 5.7 joules, NOT the internationally-accepted standard of 7.5 joules).
There is a group of Canadian target shooters who are actively involved in attempts to have the Pentagon F symbol accepted as the means by which firearm/non-firearm classification is made. Wish us luck!
Mark.
Mark,
Your information was most helpful (not that the other info was not!).
Just FYI - Here in Michigan sometime in the 1970's a law was enacted that decreed anything with a rifled barrel to be a firearm - so all target level air rifles are. Also, any pistol from .177 on up is a firearm.
Now a pistol must also be registered, so this creates a problem for club ownership of air pistols. I am going to ask for a muzzle energy based definition.
This whole thing has gotten real ugly locally as the county sheriff has read the law and decided that an AirSoft toy is now a firearm and all firearm laws apply. There are at least two folks in the local jail over this issue.
JPM
Your information was most helpful (not that the other info was not!).
Just FYI - Here in Michigan sometime in the 1970's a law was enacted that decreed anything with a rifled barrel to be a firearm - so all target level air rifles are. Also, any pistol from .177 on up is a firearm.
Now a pistol must also be registered, so this creates a problem for club ownership of air pistols. I am going to ask for a muzzle energy based definition.
This whole thing has gotten real ugly locally as the county sheriff has read the law and decided that an AirSoft toy is now a firearm and all firearm laws apply. There are at least two folks in the local jail over this issue.
JPM
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bob W
Firearm or not a firearm
As I see it there's a problem with the state classifying an airgun or other as a firearm is that it would restrict certain classes of people who can't readily own firearms, and by its nature interferer with interstate commerce.
What does that have to do with anything? see below from Bob Beemans web site. I quoted his excerpt the United States Code, Title 15, Section 5001, subsections g(i) and g(ii). BB/AIRGUN/PAINTBALL/IMITATION FIREARM PREEMPTION.
Link: http://www.beemans.net/airguns_protecte ... te_reg.htm
Excerpt;
"The law is United States Code, Title 15, Section 5001, BB/AIRGUN/PAINTBALL/IMITATION FIREARM PREEMPTION. The sections of interest to us are Sections "g(i) and g(ii)" at the very end. Read their very clear language and leap for joy:
"(g) Preemption of State or local laws or ordinances; exceptions
The provisions of this section shall supersede any provisions of State or local laws or ordinances which provide for markings or identifications inconsistent with provisions of this section provided that no State shall
(i) prohibit the sale or manufacture of any look-alike, non-firing, collector replica of an antique firearms developed prior to 1898, or
(ii) prohibit the sale (other than prohibiting the sale to minors) of traditional B-B, paint ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure."
Additional information is available at attorney Nappen's website: http://www.evannappen.com "
What does that have to do with anything? see below from Bob Beemans web site. I quoted his excerpt the United States Code, Title 15, Section 5001, subsections g(i) and g(ii). BB/AIRGUN/PAINTBALL/IMITATION FIREARM PREEMPTION.
Link: http://www.beemans.net/airguns_protecte ... te_reg.htm
Excerpt;
"The law is United States Code, Title 15, Section 5001, BB/AIRGUN/PAINTBALL/IMITATION FIREARM PREEMPTION. The sections of interest to us are Sections "g(i) and g(ii)" at the very end. Read their very clear language and leap for joy:
"(g) Preemption of State or local laws or ordinances; exceptions
The provisions of this section shall supersede any provisions of State or local laws or ordinances which provide for markings or identifications inconsistent with provisions of this section provided that no State shall
(i) prohibit the sale or manufacture of any look-alike, non-firing, collector replica of an antique firearms developed prior to 1898, or
(ii) prohibit the sale (other than prohibiting the sale to minors) of traditional B-B, paint ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure."
Additional information is available at attorney Nappen's website: http://www.evannappen.com "
I guess I just don't get it. Has there been a rash of crime committed with BB guns? Are pellet guns now the prefered guns used by terrorists? Why doesn't your state legislature simply re-define a firearm as something that uses a self-contained cartridge that propels a projectile or projectiles (shotgun) by the explosive force of a chemical propellent, i.e. gunpowder. This would automatically exclude air guns from the definition and leave them alone. We shouldn't get caught up in all the European and Canadian technical descriptions of what are legal and illegal air guns. Air guns simply pose no great threat to the safety and/or welfare of our citizenry.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Re: Firearm or not a firearm
I need to send this one to the city of Belaire Kansas. They have a really nice gym that we could be using for 4-H Air Rifle, BUT all air rifles / air pistols are illegal in that town. They contend that the 2nd amendment didn't apply to air rifles since they're not a firearm.bob W wrote: "The law is United States Code, Title 15, Section 5001, BB/AIRGUN/PAINTBALL/IMITATION FIREARM PREEMPTION. The sections of interest to us are Sections "g(i) and g(ii)" at the very end. Read their very clear language and leap for joy:
"(g) Preemption of State or local laws or ordinances; exceptions
The provisions of this section shall supersede any provisions of State or local laws or ordinances which provide for markings or identifications inconsistent with provisions of this section provided that no State shall
(ii) prohibit the sale (other than prohibiting the sale to minors) of traditional B-B, paint ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure."
"
Mike
Wichita KS
I don't want to get into a debate over Michigan gun laws - in some ways they make sense in others they do not. Michigan doesn't prohibit the sale of airguns or ownership . . . but they treat them like firearms and force you to comply with all the silly storage and transportation laws (locked cases etc.). AirSoft toys seem to be in a grey area right now.
I have written my state rep and proposed that some changes be made.
JPM
I have written my state rep and proposed that some changes be made.
JPM