I shot an 1800 match on Saturday, scored a guy shooting Pardin's in both 22 and center fire. His score only dropped 3 points between 22 and CF. He finished 3rd on 22, but is CF the top 2 guys dropped 17 and 18 points with there 45acp guns. So he want from 3rd to 1st. If you have greater aspirations then I can see learning to shoot a 45 very well, but at a local level you will be more successful with a 32ACP.
Graham
32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Probably the primary reason for the current popularity of the 32 ACP. It will be interesting to see the future impact on the 45 aggregate, it any.fastg wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:39 pm I shot an 1800 match on Saturday, scored a guy shooting Pardin's in both 22 and center fire. His score only dropped 3 points between 22 and CF. He finished 3rd on 22, but is CF the top 2 guys dropped 17 and 18 points with there 45acp guns. So he want from 3rd to 1st. If you have greater aspirations then I can see learning to shoot a 45 very well, but at a local level you will be more successful with a 32ACP.
Graham
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Below are the results of 32 ACP load tests on Monday, April 7th.
Caveats/issues:
• Gun is a MatchGuns MG4 32 S&WL modified with a Shilen .311 barrel and different extractor to grasp the smaller 32 ACP rim. Modifications built by Eulette Precision.
• An old Hoppe’s Pistol Rest was used as a rest. Not ideal but probably good enough to indicate potential. I have a Ransom Rest insert built by Precision Target Pistol Grips but haven’t finished working out a few issues with the fit.
• Loading press is a Dillon 550B.
• Starline brass.
• Hornady dies except taper crimp (Redding).
• Weather: 65 & sunny. Slight breeze from behind the firing line.
• NRA B-8 repair center (25-yd target) @ 50 yards
• Chronograph - Garmin
• Accuracy was very promising for all listed below as tested.
1. T&B 64SWC .314. OAL .888. 1.9 BE. Feed problems (OAL?). Once sighted, all shots were in the black with only a couple wandering out. The rest used probably had something to do with that. Vel (FPS): 843Lo/894Hi/860Avg. SD 16.
2. T&B 64SWC .314. OAL .888. 1.6 Clays. Feed problems (OAL?). Same accuracy as above. Vel: 843Lo/860Hi/773Avg. SD 60.
3. 85 XTP .312 OAL .915. 1.6N310. A few feed problems. Vel: 755Lo/802Hi/773Avg.
4. Brazos 78RN. .312. OAL .933. TiteGroup 1.8. All good, no probs/issues. Vel: 739Lo/870Hi/805Avg. SD 40
5. Brazos 78 RN. .312. OAL .978. 1.9 231 (noticeable recoil). All good. Vel: 736Lo/852Hi/802Avg. SD 33
6. Brazos 78 RN. .312. Oal .978. 1.6 N310. All good. Vel: 825Lo/880Hi/825Avg. SD 29.
Also have T&B 78 RN (.314) that I plan to test. Should have Ransom Rest set up and ready to go by week’s end. Will then be able to work on the above stats and provide more detailed and more accurate results of the above. Still need to fiddle with powder amounts.
At the moment, Clays remains a favorite. As written earlier, Clays in the 32 S&WL with the T&B 64 SWC has provided great results. Looks really weird but works. Concern with Clays in anything is the very, very narrow safe powder amount range.
Caveats/issues:
• Gun is a MatchGuns MG4 32 S&WL modified with a Shilen .311 barrel and different extractor to grasp the smaller 32 ACP rim. Modifications built by Eulette Precision.
• An old Hoppe’s Pistol Rest was used as a rest. Not ideal but probably good enough to indicate potential. I have a Ransom Rest insert built by Precision Target Pistol Grips but haven’t finished working out a few issues with the fit.
• Loading press is a Dillon 550B.
• Starline brass.
• Hornady dies except taper crimp (Redding).
• Weather: 65 & sunny. Slight breeze from behind the firing line.
• NRA B-8 repair center (25-yd target) @ 50 yards
• Chronograph - Garmin
• Accuracy was very promising for all listed below as tested.
1. T&B 64SWC .314. OAL .888. 1.9 BE. Feed problems (OAL?). Once sighted, all shots were in the black with only a couple wandering out. The rest used probably had something to do with that. Vel (FPS): 843Lo/894Hi/860Avg. SD 16.
2. T&B 64SWC .314. OAL .888. 1.6 Clays. Feed problems (OAL?). Same accuracy as above. Vel: 843Lo/860Hi/773Avg. SD 60.
3. 85 XTP .312 OAL .915. 1.6N310. A few feed problems. Vel: 755Lo/802Hi/773Avg.
4. Brazos 78RN. .312. OAL .933. TiteGroup 1.8. All good, no probs/issues. Vel: 739Lo/870Hi/805Avg. SD 40
5. Brazos 78 RN. .312. OAL .978. 1.9 231 (noticeable recoil). All good. Vel: 736Lo/852Hi/802Avg. SD 33
6. Brazos 78 RN. .312. Oal .978. 1.6 N310. All good. Vel: 825Lo/880Hi/825Avg. SD 29.
Also have T&B 78 RN (.314) that I plan to test. Should have Ransom Rest set up and ready to go by week’s end. Will then be able to work on the above stats and provide more detailed and more accurate results of the above. Still need to fiddle with powder amounts.
At the moment, Clays remains a favorite. As written earlier, Clays in the 32 S&WL with the T&B 64 SWC has provided great results. Looks really weird but works. Concern with Clays in anything is the very, very narrow safe powder amount range.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Conducted another testing session today.
Same equipment as previously listed. Ransom Rest insert modified slightly to provide more room for the slide. All shots were loaded and fired one at a time rather than inserting a magazine of 5 rounds.
Loads tested today were Brazos 78RN .312, TB 78RN .312, and TB 64SWC .314 in that order. Powder for all 3 was 1.6 of N310. OAL for all was .933. Taper crimp. 10 shots of each fired.
Temp was 78, sunny, with no wind.
No issues or problems encountered with equipment or components.
Each of the above 3 grouped tight enough to fit in the 10-ring or better if zeroed for a target. How each would appear if fired in a gun hanging off my arm instead of in a Ransom Rest is an entirely different matter.
Happy with the progress so far. Will continue the effort as above and with trying different powders and powder amounts.
Same equipment as previously listed. Ransom Rest insert modified slightly to provide more room for the slide. All shots were loaded and fired one at a time rather than inserting a magazine of 5 rounds.
Loads tested today were Brazos 78RN .312, TB 78RN .312, and TB 64SWC .314 in that order. Powder for all 3 was 1.6 of N310. OAL for all was .933. Taper crimp. 10 shots of each fired.
Temp was 78, sunny, with no wind.
No issues or problems encountered with equipment or components.
Each of the above 3 grouped tight enough to fit in the 10-ring or better if zeroed for a target. How each would appear if fired in a gun hanging off my arm instead of in a Ransom Rest is an entirely different matter.
Happy with the progress so far. Will continue the effort as above and with trying different powders and powder amounts.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Another session today. Temp was 89 degrees, sunny, no wind.
Tested Brazos 78 round nose (.312 and .314) and T&B 78 Round nose (.312) with 1.6 of N310. All continued to work well as stated before. Interesting in that the Brazos bullets sometimes varied as much as 1.5 grains more or less while the T&B were very close with perhaps .1 grain either way. Given that, all performed equally well.
An OAL of .933 provided consistent feeding in the MG4 with the Eulette 32 ACP conversion for the 32 S&WL MG4 pistol. Plan to increase the OAL in the future to see what happens. Also plan to test WST and BE at 1.6 or more.
Rumor has it that MatchGuns may be releasing a MG4 in 32 ACP soon. If so, hopefully they will make the necessary modifications to the magazine or produce a different mag for the 32 ACP. The 32 S&WL mags work but with the smaller rim diameter of the 32 ACP in relation to the 32 S&WL, very careful loading and handling of the 32 S&WL mag when loaded with 32 ACP is required. An additional issue is that some MG4's in 32 S&WL will tear up a mag. I have had that happen to 2 mags so far. I don't know what is being done to address that issue. MatchGuns support remains outstanding.
Bottomline is that the 32 ACP conversion effort remains an exercise in love and plan to continue in earnest. I have yet reached the point where I fully trust the pistol to use it in a NRA Precision Pistol Tournament or a CMP Match Pistol Match. Foresee reaching that point once I have found the appropriate ammo load that produces the appropriate result.
Tested Brazos 78 round nose (.312 and .314) and T&B 78 Round nose (.312) with 1.6 of N310. All continued to work well as stated before. Interesting in that the Brazos bullets sometimes varied as much as 1.5 grains more or less while the T&B were very close with perhaps .1 grain either way. Given that, all performed equally well.
An OAL of .933 provided consistent feeding in the MG4 with the Eulette 32 ACP conversion for the 32 S&WL MG4 pistol. Plan to increase the OAL in the future to see what happens. Also plan to test WST and BE at 1.6 or more.
Rumor has it that MatchGuns may be releasing a MG4 in 32 ACP soon. If so, hopefully they will make the necessary modifications to the magazine or produce a different mag for the 32 ACP. The 32 S&WL mags work but with the smaller rim diameter of the 32 ACP in relation to the 32 S&WL, very careful loading and handling of the 32 S&WL mag when loaded with 32 ACP is required. An additional issue is that some MG4's in 32 S&WL will tear up a mag. I have had that happen to 2 mags so far. I don't know what is being done to address that issue. MatchGuns support remains outstanding.
Bottomline is that the 32 ACP conversion effort remains an exercise in love and plan to continue in earnest. I have yet reached the point where I fully trust the pistol to use it in a NRA Precision Pistol Tournament or a CMP Match Pistol Match. Foresee reaching that point once I have found the appropriate ammo load that produces the appropriate result.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Equipment as listed above with following exceptions were tested today - 1.6 N310 and BE and 1.8 BE with Brazos & T&B 78 RN (.312) & XTP 85. The 78 RN were more accurate than the XTP. Tried both taper and roll crimps to see if it helped with feeding. Didn’t seem to matter. No issues with feeding.
Increased OAL from previous 0.933 to 0.950.
Substantial improvement with T&B 78 RN with 1.8 N310 and .950 OAL. Shilen .311 barrel seems best with these parameters. MG4 also performed better.
Weather was 58 degrees, light rain, no wind.
The Clark “Recoil Master” Colt Series 80 with a coned compensator and light 38 Super loads (N310 3.9 @ 50 and 3.5 @ 25 with Zero 0.356 JHP’s remains more accurate with very little felt recoil over that of the MG4 as configured with the 32 ACP conversion. The Colt is currently the preferred pistol for CMP Match Pistol/NRA Precision Pistol events, however, the MG4 is quickly closing the gap between the two pistols.
Increased OAL from previous 0.933 to 0.950.
Substantial improvement with T&B 78 RN with 1.8 N310 and .950 OAL. Shilen .311 barrel seems best with these parameters. MG4 also performed better.
Weather was 58 degrees, light rain, no wind.
The Clark “Recoil Master” Colt Series 80 with a coned compensator and light 38 Super loads (N310 3.9 @ 50 and 3.5 @ 25 with Zero 0.356 JHP’s remains more accurate with very little felt recoil over that of the MG4 as configured with the 32 ACP conversion. The Colt is currently the preferred pistol for CMP Match Pistol/NRA Precision Pistol events, however, the MG4 is quickly closing the gap between the two pistols.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Firing pin broke on the MG4 ACP so I am dead in the water until I get a new one. Hopefully, that will be soon.
In the meantime, will be playing with the Walther GSP 32 S&W long instead.
In the meantime, will be playing with the Walther GSP 32 S&W long instead.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Since my last, I recently replaced the MG4 firing pin. I was ready to pick up where I left off, however, dark clouds have appeared on the horizon.
MatchGuns may be a thing of the past.
Seems that the factory has closed hoping that someone will suddenly appear with a lot of cash to start it up again. Rumor has it that 350K (Euros) will buy 51% of the stock in the business. No indication if that 350K means simply assuming ownership of shares or if is also entails assuming whatever debt that may be carried.
Given the incredibly large numbers of businesses on the brink of financial ruin throughout the world with Italy being one of those with the most debt, it appears unlikely that someone will want to spend a lot of money for a business with such a very, very small marketplace.
MatchGuns may be a thing of the past.
Seems that the factory has closed hoping that someone will suddenly appear with a lot of cash to start it up again. Rumor has it that 350K (Euros) will buy 51% of the stock in the business. No indication if that 350K means simply assuming ownership of shares or if is also entails assuming whatever debt that may be carried.
Given the incredibly large numbers of businesses on the brink of financial ruin throughout the world with Italy being one of those with the most debt, it appears unlikely that someone will want to spend a lot of money for a business with such a very, very small marketplace.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
Is there a source for this story you would be able to share? That sounds serious, if so. A bit off-topic, perhaps.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
In that you are in Europe, you are probably better able to determine the situation.
A simple phone call could verify what I wrote. If someone answers, then perhaps it is business as usual at MatchGuns or they found a financial backer. If not, . . .
Krale recently informed me that they no longer deal in MatchGuns. They didn't indicate why.
The recent post is considered relevant to the discussion of this topic because a MG4 32 SWL with the Eulette 32 ACP conversion is the basis of this topic.
Unless you obtain a 32 ACP conversion for your MG4E, the info that I have provided may or may not be relevant. My conversion is a Shilon barrel with a different extractor as I indicated in previous posts of this topic.
Whether another such conversion has a barrel with the same characteristics may or not provide the same results. For those with 32 ACP's from the same seller applies (e.g. Pardini), it is not uncommon for barrels in the same pistol type from the same manufacturer to provide different results. Accordingly, the results that I have obtained should be considered potential loads to determine what might and what might not work for the respective 32 ACP owner.
In the interim, keep your MG4E clean and handle it carefully because parts may no longer be obtainable for the foreseeable future, if ever.
A simple phone call could verify what I wrote. If someone answers, then perhaps it is business as usual at MatchGuns or they found a financial backer. If not, . . .
Krale recently informed me that they no longer deal in MatchGuns. They didn't indicate why.
The recent post is considered relevant to the discussion of this topic because a MG4 32 SWL with the Eulette 32 ACP conversion is the basis of this topic.
Unless you obtain a 32 ACP conversion for your MG4E, the info that I have provided may or may not be relevant. My conversion is a Shilon barrel with a different extractor as I indicated in previous posts of this topic.
Whether another such conversion has a barrel with the same characteristics may or not provide the same results. For those with 32 ACP's from the same seller applies (e.g. Pardini), it is not uncommon for barrels in the same pistol type from the same manufacturer to provide different results. Accordingly, the results that I have obtained should be considered potential loads to determine what might and what might not work for the respective 32 ACP owner.
In the interim, keep your MG4E clean and handle it carefully because parts may no longer be obtainable for the foreseeable future, if ever.
Re: 32 ACP - "Flash in the Pan"?
I am ceasing further efforts with the MatchGuns MG-4 32 ACP (Eulette Precision mod) since MatchGuns S.r.l in Italy has apparently gone "sneakers up".
The support provided by Kang Chua, the U.S. importer of MatchGuns, has always been outstanding in every respect regarding my MG-2 EVO RF and MG-4 32. I still prefer the MG2 RF over the others (208S, Pardini SP, FWB AW93, GSP Expert, Kart Conversion, Benelli, etc.).
I may change the MG-4 back to 32 SWL and "dabble" with it however, the Walther GSP 32 has been more successful for me.
The support provided by Kang Chua, the U.S. importer of MatchGuns, has always been outstanding in every respect regarding my MG-2 EVO RF and MG-4 32. I still prefer the MG2 RF over the others (208S, Pardini SP, FWB AW93, GSP Expert, Kart Conversion, Benelli, etc.).
I may change the MG-4 back to 32 SWL and "dabble" with it however, the Walther GSP 32 has been more successful for me.