Interpreting Targets — Rings of 9s

[JRV]

Air pistol gurus—I have a question. I’ve hit a consistent plateau in training. I can consistently hold 9-ring. 10s are occasional and 8s are rare. But, most of the time, my pellets are falling cleanly in the 9-ring. High, low, left, right; there’s no rhyme or reason.

The heat map of my shots this past week, for example, would resemble a donut. In-person coaching opportunities are essentially non-existent in my area (no local scholastic or collegiate teams).

What does a random donut of pellets typically indicate with respect to correctable shooter error?

The gun is a full-size LP1P with sights at full radius and a custom-fit Morini grip. Trigger pull is about 540g.

[Gwhite]

Question: Can you call your shots? If you can see your sights well, and are shooting at that level, you should be able to easily tell the difference between a 3:00 nine and a 9:00 nine. If you can't, you aren't truly focused on your front sight.

[JRV]

Yes, I can call and am shooting on call. If my eye refuses to focus correctly, I put the gun back down and redo the lift. I’m watching my front sight lift with the shot and settling it back into my hold on the follow through before dropping. Pellets are hitting the target where I see the sights lift. The issue problem I am perceiving is I’m failing to settle the front sight while applying trigger pressure.

When I shoot my bullseye guns—and this is very visible with a dot—the gun wobbles slightly smaller than the aiming black, but it usually breaks near the center of wobble. The more pressure I put into the trigger, the tighter the wobble. I’m a consistent high 280s/low 290s NMC .22 shooter using conversions on a 4 lb trigger .45 lower.

With the air pistol, I am consistently breaking on the edge of my hold. My hold has some vertical float (not angular, it’s coming from the delt/pec) and the front sight never really settles laterally (angular error, I am aware of the light bars when I stare at the front sight face). The sight isn’t settling as I build trigger pressure into the second stage.

The result is I’m shooting a lot of 45 and 46 point donuts.

I have to rely on a lot of delt and pec for my shooting position. I am partially disabled and have limited range of motion in my neck and shoulders from surgeries, so I am standing pretty square to the target. So, I’m not sure that hold is going to get any smaller. I have thought about shortening my sight radius to test whether the full-radius wobble is feeding a tendency to snatch at percieved 10s. I have also thought to increase the trigger weight incrementally in case the issue is better grip discipline. But, if you or anyone else has seen this type of thing with a student and coached them through it, I’d be interested to hear what worked.

[Bob Foth]

Sounds like you are doing lots of things right and have good self-awareness.
I really like that you are bringing the outside edge of the group in (few 8s).
Deciding to reject questionable shots is quick. Refining hold takes a long time and concerted effort, including training hold specifically without the distraction of score. Process produces outcome. Fight harder to prepare for the shot and the shot should go easier!
Note too that the scale of the target rings is challenging and doesn't directly compare to other disciplines.

What are your groups like on blank targets?
Have you tried a training device like SCATT to give you more detailed feedback?

Can you set up your AP weight and balance to feel more like your bullseye guns since they break near the center of wobble?
It might be your trigger. Is it really crisp or do you feel it creep? Ever shot a higher end current pistol with a great trigger? Electronic trigger (AMAZINGLY CRISP!)?
Disclosure: I help Walther with sales/service at matches...Have you tried a LP500 with e-trigger? Even with the mechanical trigger, you can easily see that the first stage is totally independent from the second stage, allowing for a crisp feel without "crosstalk" between adjustments.

[JRV]

I have not tried blank target drills in a couple seasons. Last time I shot blanks was service pistol practice.

I have a local buddy with a SCATT, but I should do blank targets. If this is an eye/trigger issue and I’m snatching at sight pictures to fight my wobble, that would mean different group shapes on targets without a bull.

[Gwhite]

If you were snatching, they wouldn't be uniformly scattered around the center. They would be going in one or two directions.

It's possibly you have a circular wobble. I'm in my early 70's, and I have an oscillatory tremor I've been dealing with for several years. It's usually from 1:00 to 7:00 in somewhat of a line, but occasionally it opens up into an ellipse. On rare occasions, its somewhat circular. However, at its worst, it's huge compared to the 9-ring. I'm talking shots barely in scoring rings.

It tends to build up the longer I hold. My instinct is to tighten my grip to control it, and that just makes it worse. If you are used to shooting centerfire, I can almost guarantee that you are holding the air pistol too tightly. Air pistol is a game of finesse. Relax & just hang it out there. I frequently find new shooters are overgripping and trying to CONTROL the pistol. We have a grip force meter, and all the best air pistol shooters on the team I help coach use 2 lbs or less (the meter doesn't go below 2 lbs). I had a student who measured at 9 lbs. We got him to chill out, and his groups instantly shrank by more than a factor of two.

I've been working on getting my shots off VERY fast, and that also helps a lot. The vast majority of shooters take too long to get their shots off anyway. Brian Zins recommends starting your squeeze as you drop down into your hold so the shot breaks the instant you are fully settled. Try dry firing, and work on developing a trigger squeeze that is as FAST as you can fire WITHOUT disturbing your sight alignment.

I would echo the recommendation of using a SCATT. It will show you when, how long and how big your minimum wobble is, as well as what shape.

Good luck!

[Dcforman]

I would argue that it's possible you're still snatching at shots, IF you're shot process is trigger focused vs. sight alignment focused. If you're allowing your subconscious to aim, it's possible you're making the shot break early before your wobble passes through the center, rather than letting the shot break as your wobble passes through the center.

Not sure if this makes sense, hard to convey the concept through a forum post.

Dave

[JRV]

I’m not sure I am comprehending… conscious eyes/subconscious trigger versus subconscious eyes/conscious trigger? Is that the distinction?

With the bullseye gear, conscious trigger focus with subconscious sight awareness is the game given how heavy the triggers (and big the scoring rings) are. Little errors on a 4 lb break turn 10s into 8s fast.

I am certain I’m overdoing the grip given the 2 lb figure cited. By a long shot. That’s a light figure!

[Skellocks]

It sounds like you are shooting 540, or better most days. I generally shoot 8, or better. When I do not- I shoot 6/7's at 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock. I do not think it involves a triggering issue, or a sighting issue,...but a timing issue. I think I wait too long to take the shot...leading to small errors everywhere. Clearly, having the errors in the same place is a big plus- for both of us. We just need to track down the cause of the error.

We just bought a SCATT basic and are looking to see if the error truly is a delay error...

Also, does anyone one else have this problem- occasionally, I prepare my position and shot, draw down on target- and simply cannot pull the trigger. Nothing I tell my finger to do works. It just does not happen.

[PirateJohn]

Also, does anyone one else have this problem- occasionally, I prepare my position and shot, draw down on target- and simply cannot pull the trigger. Nothing I tell my finger to do works. It just does not happen.

When it happens to me, it's because I'm looking at the target and not at my front sight.

And the way I'm overcoming it is a crapload of blank wall dry fires every day, and via a drill one of my coaches has me do where I take 50 shots on a blank target in under 20 minutes, followed by another 50 shots on a regular target in under 20 minutes. I do that drill about 5-6 days a week.

[Gwhite]

It's called "chicken finger", and it is a very common ailment. Lots of dry firing will help. Concentrate on smoothly ramping up pressure on the trigger. As long as you do that, the pistol is going to fire.

It's often the result of trying to make things too perfect. Part of your brain is saying "squeeze", and another part is saying "not yet, not yet!" Accept your wobble, and concentrate on firing without adding any additional motion to the pistol. The reason to practice on a blank target is there is no outcome. That should keep the "not yet" part of your brain from mucking things up.

[JRV]

I just wrapped an hour of practice. My closing targets before shooting blanks were a 46, two 47s, and a 48.

I reduced my sight radius by 2 cm and put more rake back into the grip (which precluded gripping as hard as I normally do) which helped. Shooting faster did not. I spent four very poor targets trying to break the shot within a couple seconds of sight alignment in the white below the bull. Definitely not for me… it takes me almost four seconds to settle the sights completely. Cutting sight radius helped a bit with the mental game. The picture was much more still once aligned. Blanks at the end of practice were consistent with the 47 point groups.

If I had to self-assess, overgripping was increasing my wobble and my mental game isn’t good enough to ignore the wobble that is always going to be there.

[BobGee]

I agree with PirateJohn. I believe you are unwittingly looking through your front sight at the target and, as Rover would say, you are trying to ambush the 10 ring on your way past it. I have an AP target I shot with a beautiful ring of holes in the 9 ring! I still have that problem but am working through it but like Gwhite I have a 70-year-old's tremor. I think the dry fire using a blank wall and then a spot will help.

Bob

[thirdwheel]

If your rear sight is to narrow it can cause "hunting" and inability to get everything in alignment as you need that light coming through the sights to be able to work the relationship front to back try opening them up to give more light to see. The advice about grip pressure is spot on but can I add try and not curl you fingers and grip the grip let them float free away from the grip. You are very good at analysing what you are doing - well done but get on that scatt asap that will allow you to try stuff out and it looks like you are able to work stuff out.

[atomicgale]

What does a random donut of pellets typically indicate . . .

. . . that you're a Cop?

[JRV]

Cop work was a past life, funny enough.

Just to make sure Saturday was not a fluke, I had a brief (30-shot) practice today after a work-from-home lunch and a little dryfire.

20 pellets at blank targets and two bulls. I kept the rearmost paper in place for blank targets and ended up with a 9-ring sized group with even dispersion, no donut ring.

Two bulls were a 47 and a 48.

The shorter sight radius has made spotting a bad lift easier. It’s less ambiguous when alignment’s off. Abort, regrip, and relift is an easier call with stiller sights.

I don’t regret not buying a compact, but I am happy to have a pistol where shortening the sight radius was an option.

[Gwhite]

The shorter sight radius also affects the apparent width of the front sight relative to the rear. You may wan to widen the rear notch a bit to compensate.

[rmca]

My 2 cents,

If you are shooting 47's and 48's you want a longer sight radius.
If you are wobbling around the 9 ring, close the rear sight and make it's depth smaller.
This will help you with sight alignment.
But don't over do it... you have to be able to cope with it for 70+ shots.

From my experience, when I find it difficult to get into the ten ring, it's because I'm not giving enough attention to sight alignment.
The devil is in the details in this sport, and you have to be very critical of your sight alignment to get consistent tens.
There is no miracle solution, you just have to grind through it...

Hope this helps