Scoring Limits of a Cheap Gun

[10shotflyer]

Hi everyone. I recently purchased a Diana Airbug to see whether I would like 10m air pistol shooting. Needless to say, I am enjoying it a lot. Though it may be way too early, I can envision myself putting in the effort over time so that I can try to compete in some local matches in the future.

My understanding is that a Diana Airbug is not really a match-ready pistol and I anticipate that I would need (or at least want to) upgrade at some point in the future. Even though I want to jump in headlong immediately and purchase a full-on match pistol, I want to try to take my time to try to work on the fundamentals with my Diana Airbug until it’s clear that I can really benefit from a better pistol. And based on my limited understanding, I’m guessing that one way I can know that is if I am able to consistently score/group somewhat near what some of you more accomplished shooters are able to shoot with a cheap gun.

That being said, I’m curious to see what some of you are able to score/group with a cheap gun. Also, if my thinking on this is way off, please chime in with things that I should actually be focused on.

Thanks in advance.

[FWB_700_Alu]

Our Club recently bought a Hämmerli AP20 (about € 700) and I can squeeze a 360 (40 shots) out of it. Its much easier with my Steyr LP10.

[Gwhite]

The Diana Airbug is not really competitive. It uses WAY too much CO2, and early shots will spew CO2 out the muzzle. You can't get through a 60 shot match on 1 cartridge. The trigger is heavy and the sights are poor. I have one I bought to evaluate, and someday I may try to tune it up with a lighter hammer spring. I was sufficiently disappointed that it's dropped WAY down on my priority list.

AP20's are in a whole different class. The college team I help coach has 26 of them, and we start the new shooters with them. When the students can shoot 500 in a match, we typically upgrade them to pistols with better grips. The AP20 trigger isn't too bad, and the sight are also pretty good. You can certainly shoot much higher scores than 500 with them, especially with a grip that fits well. They are a bit light, and the lack of a built in pressure gauge can cause problems if you aren't careful. You can upgrade them to an AP20 Pro by adding a gauged cylinder and better grips.

Another option is to buy a higher grade pistol used. Harder to find, but there are lots of very good pistols out there that still shoot very well, but the owner has either lost interest in the sport or has upgraded to the latest & greatest.

[merlin32]

I've been using an AP20 at our club as it's one of the club guns while I'm waiting for my full license to come through (it must be a pro because it has a gauge on the cyl), and I'm still a beginner but I did shoot 500 with it after 3 months in, and I feel like I have a lot of room to improve and the pistol is not the issue. Perfectly good pistol for starting out, and I'd be happy to own one and just use it ongoing.

I think must haves for me would be a ISSF style grip that I can adjust to get a good secure grip and position on the trigger, a reasonable ~500g trigger and sights that I can adjust the rear sight width along with elevation and windage. If I didn't have those things I would not be happy at all!

[Rover]

Basically, you're looking for "cheap 'n' good".

If you're not in a club with free air, you'll save by buying
a single stroke pneumatic or one of the FWB 65 series.
They will be much cheaper, too.

All you need is a tin of RWS Basic pellets and you're ready
to compete at any level

[10shotflyer]

Thank you all for your helpful comments.

It sounds like once a person can hit the low-to-mid 80s per 10 shots using an AP20, then it might be worth it for that person to get a better AP. It also sounds like my Diana Airbug is significantly harder to shoot accurately than an AP20 (and yes--GWhite--my experience is that I can get ~45 good shots out of a CO2 cartridge, but as an AP noob who's used to 12lb/6lb DA/SA duty pistols, the trigger and sights seem great to me!).

So, maybe if I get to a point (hopefully in the near future) where I can consistently shoot mid-to-high 70s per 10 shots with good groups with the Airbug, and I still want to take this seriously, it'll definitely be time to upgrade. And, based on what I've gathered so far from other threads, I should just buy a high-end match AP in the ~$2k range and skip the intermediate ones in the ~$1k range if I can swing it financially. The CM200El and MGH1 Hybrid definitely look enticing.

Appreciate any other thoughts you may have.

[crankythunder]

Hey 10shot:

Where are you located? I belong to four gun clubs, two of which have a dedicated indoor air and 22LR program and each has a supply if club air pistols for members to use. Morini's and Hammerli's.

Check around your area and see if you can find a similar club.

Also, most shooters will let fellow shooters try their equipment out so next time there is a pistol competition at your local gun range, go and see what is going on, introduce yourself, and see what you like and what is available. Personally I shoot the Steyr LP 50 because I do not like reloading pellets one by one with these stubby fingers I got. Much easier loading 6 magazines using the shake tray

[GaryN]

I bought a couple used APs from Pilkington.
#1 was a Pardini K58. As was mentioned, not needing a tank of air was the primary attraction.
#2 was a Walther CPM-1. The tendonitis in the elbow started to make charging the K58 difficult, so I went with a used co2 AP.
I am VERY happy with both APs. Both guns will out-shoot me.

About trying another person's AP.
If the grip does NOT fit your hand, that may/will be very difficult. I have small hands, and tried a couple APs with large grips, which felt like holding a 2x4. Similar the other way around, a person with large hand could not grip my APs. The shelf is high, and NO I am not going to move the shelf. It was difficult enough getting it "just right," that it isn't moving.

[Rover]

Well there's cheap and there's cheap. Has anyone out there played with one of these?

https://www.krale.shop/us/snowpeak-pp20 ... Ni4wLjAuMA..

I know nothing.

[Gwhite]

It's basically a cheap Chinese copy of a Steyr. The reviews are generally favorable, but there are issues. I have no idea if one can get parts or service for one.

That said, you can get several of them for the price of a high end PCP pistol, so you can supply your own parts...

[m1963]

A Target Talk thread about the PP20...

viewtopic.php?p=328153#p328153

[JamesH]

That said, you can get several of them for the price of a high end PCP pistol, so you can supply your own parts...

Its the same with Chinese cars - good luck getting parts.

I know a couple of people who have had to scrap ~five year old cars due to parts non-availability.

[Gwhite]

They seem to be pretty common for sale in Europe at this point. I found one place in Canada that had them. They want a ~ 50% deposit, probably to build up enough interest to put in a bulk order safely. A quick search didn't find anyone in the US that sells them, much less someone advertising that they service them.

If you are comfortable working on the the inner mechanism of air pistols, they sound a bit like air pistols "kits". Most of them seem to need need some work right out of the box. From some of the posts, they have a "safety" that frequently acts up. Clearly not copied from a Steyr, and apparently not well thought out...

[David M]

Well there's cheap and there's cheap. Has anyone out there played with one of these?

https://www.krale.shop/us/snowpeak-pp20 ... Ni4wLjAuMA..

I know nothing.

Here is the web site. But no manual available......maybe wait.
http://www.snowpeaksports.com/series/details/123.html

[thirdwheel]

We picked up a snowpeak pp20 about a year ago s/h for the club, yes it is lookie likie LP10 but that is only skin deep as the innards are their own, trigger is single stage and was way under 500g but I sorted that with a different spring. Shoots well and not given us any grief and it is liked rather than shunned for a different club pistol.

[10shotflyer]

@crankythunder - I am located in the DC suburbs. Unfortunately, a cursory search for air pistol-specific clubs don't seem to yield anything nearby. I may have to just take a risk of getting something sight-unseen. However, my understanding is that all of the high-end match pistols are pretty awesome, and it will also likely be a while before I sort out what works best for me at the margins.

Re: Snowpeak PP20--I was thinking about getting one after seeing this review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIoEjCX5Wvs) and reading others. However, the lack of support and the higher risk of reliability issues concern me. I'd prefer to buy once, cry once.

[Gwhite]

In order to extract the best accuracy from a pistol, you need a grip that fits. If you are buying new, try to find a dealer that has a selection of grip sizes, and is willing to swap if the first one doesn't fit well. Nothing "off the rack" will be perfect, but you will have a lot less work if you start with one that is close. The standard measurement is the distance across the knuckles:

https://www.nill-griffe.com/imageBig/Ha ... .copy1.jpg

This doesn't take into account things like the length of the fingers, but it's a place to start.

Different manufacturers have different designations for what is large, small, etc. Here is a relatively complete list of how the sizes are designated by various manufacturers:

Grip Sizes Ver 3.xls

(25.5 KiB) Downloaded 212 times

[Ade C]

Regarding the PP20, I was at IWA in Germany the other week and on the Snow Peak stand they had the pre production PP30. It's essentially the same, but with an improved trigger. Trying them both there was a noticeable difference between them.
As mentioned, it's a bit of a gamble with spares but felt like a really good pistol for the relatively low cost

[thor348]

Hi everyone. I recently purchased a Diana Airbug to see whether I would like 10m air pistol shooting. Needless to say, I am enjoying it a lot. Though it may be way too early, I can envision myself putting in the effort over time so that I can try to compete in some local matches in the future.

My understanding is that a Diana Airbug is not really a match-ready pistol and I anticipate that I would need (or at least want to) upgrade at some point in the future. Even though I want to jump in headlong immediately and purchase a full-on match pistol, I want to try to take my time to try to work on the fundamentals with my Diana Airbug until it’s clear that I can really benefit from a better pistol. And based on my limited understanding, I’m guessing that one way I can know that is if I am able to consistently score/group somewhat near what some of you more accomplished shooters are able to shoot with a cheap gun.

That being said, I’m curious to see what some of you are able to score/group with a cheap gun. Also, if my thinking on this is way off, please chime in with things that I should actually be focused on.

Thanks in advance.

Hey there, and welcome to the exciting world of 10m air pistol shooting! great to hear that you're enjoying it and already looking ahead to future competitions. You're definitely taking a smart approach by focusing on the fundamentals with your Diana Airbug before investing in a more expensive match pistol.

You're also right on the money when you say that one way to gauge your progress is by comparing your scores and groupings to those of more experienced shooters using similar, less expensive equipment. While it's important to remember that everyone progresses at their own pace, this can give you a rough idea of when you might be ready for an upgrade.

As for what kind of scores and groupings you should be aiming for, it can vary depending on the level of competition you're interested in. However, as a general rule of thumb, if you can consistently shoot scores in the mid-to-high 90s on a standard 10m air pistol target (with a maximum possible score of 100) and groupings within the 9-10 rings, that would be a good indication that you're ready to consider upgrading your pistol. Happy shooting

[10shotflyer]

@GWhite--Thank you for that chart.

@thor348--Thank you for your thoughts. I just had a follow-up question. If a person can consistently shoot mid-to-high 90s, that would result in a 60 shot score of 570+. Based on my limited understanding, that seems to be a world-class score that people can consistently achieve only with world-class pistols, not with a $140 pistol like mine. Is there something I am missing, or does your general rule of thumb assume that the shooter has a reasonably good quality match-grade AP (e.g., AP20 Pro or better)?