Walther GSP Trouble Shooting?

[Gwhite]

Gwhite

My Club has an experienced gunsmith, with hands on knowledge of the GSP, he even uses one. I should see him over the weekend. I will ask him if he can help.
What age is the one you are having problems with. Some parts diagrams from Walther mention these serial number ranges. Serial number 56501 to 67000
serial number 6700 >
serial number < 56500

The older one (which was overhauled by Earl a while back and seems to work fine) is S/N 506XX, and the newer one that suddenly started acting up is S/N 2100XX, so it is quite a bit newer. The old one had a cracked bolt housing, and Earl upgraded it to the newer style bolt & housing design.

Any ideas/suggestions are appreciated. The student is going to clean it this evening & try the two lots of CCI to see how it behaves. It seems to be doing a bit better now (for no apparent reason). What's weird is that it worked flawlessly for years, and suddenly started acting up after a recent cleaning. We took it apart and looked for anything obvious like a piece of cotton swab stuck someplace, with no success. We oiled it (perhaps too heavily), and it was still acting like there was too much drag to cycle the bolt fully. If her testing this evening is unsuccessful/inconclusive, I will take it apart tomorrow and look for some of the trouble areas others have identified. We have a match this weekend, and if I can't find a culprit tomorrow, I'll have her switch to T22 ammo for the match and practice with that on Thursday.

[Gwhite]

I am tentatively declaring victory...

I took the pistol apart and scrutinized it with an intense scrute. The tip from Lucas90 to check the firing pin revealed that the firing pin spring had gotten kinked, or the shoulder on pin that it pushes against is worn. In any event, the spring was bowed upward where it would rub on the inside of the bolt channel.

Firing Pin Spring Before.jpg (54.23 KiB) Viewed 36284 times

I took a pair of fine needle nose pliers, and rotated the spring so it no longer protruded above the top of the bolt:

Firing Pin Spring After.jpg (51.52 KiB) Viewed 36284 times

I cleaned everything, applied a light film of thin oil on the bolt & a few other wear points (like the top of the cocking "ears"), and reassembled it.

When the student arrived for practice, I gave her 100 rounds of a specific lot of CCI in case there were any problems. She fired 65 rounds without a hiccup!

We have a match this weekend, and I think we will leave it alone for now. I have a replacement firing pin & spring on the way, but they won't arrive in time to install and test before the match.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas & suggestions.

[KH250]

In the top picture, it looks like the spring is not pushing against the shoulder of the firing pin. Is the spring smaller on one end? Is it in the correct way?

[Gwhite]

Good eye! I think that is exactly where the problem is, but I'm not sure what "normal" is supposed to look like. I didn't have time to tear apart our other GSP to check. From what I could see, the top of the shoulder on the firing pin has worn down to the point where the end of the spring can slip up over it. A smaller spring, or an asymmetrical spring with one small end would prevent that from happening.

The exploded diagram I have is a drawing, and doesn't really show much detail. The spring looks symmetrical. For now, it looks like it will get through the match this weekend, and by Monday I will have the new parts and can fix it properly.

I'm still a little concerned that this isn't the whole story. The added drag it gave the slide wasn't really noticeable by feel, but A) it's clearly not right, and B) the added drag is consistent with the types of malfunctions we saw. The other change I made was to go easy on the oil, which should help as well.

Never having changed a firing pin on one of these, is there anything I should know? The pins appear asymmetrical, and I assume it's obvious which side they come out & go in from. I've got a nylon bench block with a V-groove, but the round shape of the bolt and the offset location of the pins means it's going to try to roll when I use a punch on the pins. I'm guessing they aren't supper tight.

[-TT-]

Simply rotating the spring is a good test, but it isn't going to stay that way. It definitely isn't sitting right at the "left", that's the trouble.

In addition to corkscrewing, it's going to have less tension since it is riding a mm or two too deeply. And, I bet it's binding up inside the spring channel as well as touching the bolt channel.

If flipping the spring doesn't correct it, try torquing the end coil to see if you can reduce the diameter of that final twist.

[fc60]

Greetings,

The pins that retail the firing pin assembly are tapered.

Also, a new 22lr firing pin has the spring installed.

It has been a while since I replaced one so examine the pin holes under a microscope or good loupe. I recall the pins are removed toward the ejection port.

A new firing pin kit should have the pins.

Better yet, since you have an established relationship with Earl's, give them a quick call to verify this old man's memory.

Cheers,

Dave

[Gwhite]

The firing pin comes in a kit with new pins & the spring. If it isn't pretty obvious once I get the parts and the bolt back in front of me, I'll check with Earl.

We also have an ancient bolt (the sort with skinny recoil spring) that came out of a pistol with a cracked bolt housing. It's basically waiting to be stripped of any useful parts. I don't think the firing pin design has changed, and I can use that as a disassembly guinea pig.

[Gwhite]

The student got through a full Standard pistol match (65 shots) without a hiccup today. Two of the shooters from Navy with older GSP's were not so lucky... I managed to get them through the match with a combination of chamber brushing & oil on the top round of each magazine, but it was not fun. Just to add to the excitement, one of our team's Benellis broke a firing pin in mid-match.

The parts arrived from Earl's, and I will replace the worn firing pin & spring in the GSP after our Sport Pistol match on Sunday.

[Lightfoot]

I thought I'd tag along on this topic too. For one thing, properly set Walther GSP's in my experience will run clean, dirty, hot, cold, wet, dry, and with any ammo. That being said, after about 60K rounds mine is having issues similar to Gwhites, mostly failure to feed the next round. Not failure to chamber it, just missing it all together. I'll look over the firing pin spring tonight when I get home and see if its dragging like the OP's though. I did just replace the mag springs and the recoil spring btw thinking they could be worn out.

I'm wondering if the mag catch could be slightly worn and the round is sitting just a little too low? I may try to use tape to hold the mag a little higher up and see if this helps. Anyway if anyone has any further helpful info, I'd sure appreciate the input.

[Gwhite]

That sounds like it's "short cycling", i.e. the bolt isn't coming back far enough to pick up the next round. Either the ammo is weak, or there is too much drag for the slide to come back as far as it needs to. This sort of thing often occurs on feeding the 2nd round, because the upward force from the rounds in the magazine is greatest at that time, increasing the drag on the bolt.

My first suspect is a dirty chamber. If you only clean it with a .22 bore brush, (especially a worn one), you may not be getting the chamber really clean.

See: http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... 1&#p232791

[deadeyedick]

If short cycling is the problem it can often be cured by snipping a coil at a time from the slide return spring allowing the rearward movement of the slide to increase....eventually allowing pickup of the next round.

This beats continual cleaning and oiling.

[Lightfoot]

That sounds like it's "short cycling", i.e. the bolt isn't coming back far enough to pick up the next round. Either the ammo is weak, or there is too much drag for the slide to come back as far as it needs to. This sort of thing often occurs on feeding the 2nd round, because the upward force from the rounds in the magazine is greatest at that time, increasing the drag on the bolt.

My first suspect is a dirty chamber. If you only clean it with a .22 bore brush, (especially a worn one), you may not be getting the chamber really clean.

See: http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... 1&#p232791

I think short cycling is the answer. What I can't figure out is why now? After running flawlessly for so long now its causing me trouble. I'll keep looking at it. Thanks for the help.

[Lightfoot]

If short cycling is the problem it can often be cured by snipping a coil at a time from the slide return spring allowing the rearward movement of the slide to increase....eventually allowing pickup of the next round.

This beats continual cleaning and oiling.

I just bought a new spring, so I might just try this with the old one.

[deadeyedick]

Good move Lightfoot......perhaps snip half a coil at a time.

[RMar]

There are too many responses to read, so pardon me if I repeat some thoughts or suggestions.

I believe I saw someone already suggest paying attention to the amount of oil and the viscosity of the oil used when cleaning. I agree with whoever suggested Rem Oil. That's a perfect oil for Walthers. I also believe I saw someone suggest checking the extractor, and I agree with that, too. A light bit of oil on the cartridges is another fix I saw. A chamber brush bent in an L shape works, too. I agree to all of those.

But malfunctions can mess with someone's head. The problem needs to be fixed. So...

If someone has not flat out stated this yet, Walther barrels do wear out. Again, there are too many posts to read through, so I apologize if I am repeating someone else's post. I used to have to change out my rapid fire barrels (OSP) frequently until I had a couple made. Walther barrels are made from relatively soft carbon steel. Specifically, at about 25,000 rounds, RWS and Fiocchi would not function properly (hang up, not eject properly). I would then put the barrel into a practice rotation using CCI in that barrel because CCI uses stiffer brass (perhaps a thicker gauge) than RWS and Fiocchi, and CCI uses a faster burning power and perhaps more of it, making it hotter.

I also don't know if someone else suggested checking for a burr. If the gun has been dry fired a significant number of times on an empty chamber without a chamber plug, there could be a burr that catches the brass. It could be barely noticeable to not noticeable at all. But that can be fixed.

CCI is some of the most reliable rimfire ammo made (consistent priming compound distribution, stiff brass, fast burning powder, clean/not greasy cartridges, etc.), so I doubt the ammo is the problem. That is unless their quality control has gone to hell in the last 20 years.

Generally speaking, GSPs are extremely reliable. With all parts in good working order, they are as reliable as they come, especially if you use CCI. The parts are interchangeable, if that question hasn't been answered yet.

Hope this helps.

[TonyT]

Personally, io would completelty degrease the top with methylne chloride and then reapply some Rem Oil to the innards.

The collegiate team I help coach mostly shoots Benelli MP90/95's, and a handful of Pardini SP's. We have two Walther GSP's that mostly collect dust. However, we have one young woman who shoots great, but didn't have the hand-strength to work the action on the other pistols. She's been shooting one of the GSP's for about 3 years now.

She hasn't had any trouble with it until last week. She cleaned & lubricated it the same way she always has, and it suddenly started having serious problems. She's been shooting CCI standard velocity ammo all this time without any issues. The symptoms are:

Failure to eject: Either trapped brass (stovepipe), or occasionally, the fired case gets pushed back into the chamber.

Failure to feed: It ejects OK, but the bolt doesn't come back far enough to pick up the next round and the bolt closes on an empty chamber

We had the collegiate Sectionals yesterday, which determine who gets invited to the National Championships. She shot both Standard Pistol and Sport Pistol. The pistol started messing up immediately, but I managed to get her through both matches by having her put a drop of thin oil on the top round of every magazine. We've never had to do that before. It wasn't a total cure, and she ended up losing one shot in each match. I still think she did well enough to qualify for Nationals, but we clearly need to fix her pistol. I took it apart between the two matches, and we went over it carefully together. Every thing looked fine, and we lubricated it and the bolt cycled nice & smoothly by hand. The functioning problems were not noticeably better or worse afterward.

I know next to nothing about GSP's (last night was the first time I'd ever taken one completely apart...). There is clearly something subtle going on. I don't know if the fact that it died after cleaning last week is a coincidence or not. Everything points to there being too much drag during the extraction process, but it feels fine. She has used thin oil (RemOil) in the past. I added a tiny bit of thin grease in a few spots that I thought might need it, but that could have made things worse, but not significantly.

Several questions for the GSP experts out there:

1) Should we stick with oil & skip the grease?

2) Any likely points/parts I should check?

3) We have the 2nd GSP. How interchangeable are the parts? For example, can I swap bolts and barrels back & forth to try to narrow down the problem, or are they fitted & matched?

One other option would be to switch her to Winchester T22, which has a bit more kick than the CCI.

I've got less than a month to sort this out before the National Championships. Any help & suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Azmodan]

i had troubles with my Walther GSP (22LR) last weekend.
it was oiled and clean before the competition - i shot STP (standard pistol). i also cleaned the cases of the cartridges - they were sticky and i had problems before. so i cleaned the brass but in the process i also took some of the grease off the bullet (i tried not to, but some came away as i grabbed the cartridge)

the problem begun from the first series (precision): i could see that the bolt did not go all the way into battery. a little bit of the case was still visible. i pushed the bold manually and the shot went fine.
in the rapid fire series, i could not check the bolt after each shot, so after 1 or 2 shots, the pistol went click but no shot. the cartridge was unfired in the chamber and had to be extracted with a screwdriver.

the extracted cartridges had light strike marks and some ablation on one side of the bullet (in the zone there grease grooves are).
it happened in each rapid fire series.
i used a bent brass brush like GWhite showed here to clean the chamber between series - no effect.

i went home and i did not touch the gun. after 2 days i went to the local range, loaded the pistol with the same ammo i used, fired 30 shots...no incidents. the only difference is that the temperature was around 10 degrees (Celsius) lower.

what could be the problem?

[BobGee]

I had a persistent problem with extraction, ejection and light strikes (round not fully in battery) with my TriAce .22. It is a previously loved(?) firearm which required a few replacement parts and a thorough cleaning before I could use it. I tried everything I could think of to cure the problem, including Gwhite's famous bent .25 bronze brush, all to no avail. It was not until I bought a good borescope (Teslong) that I found a substantial carbon ring at the end of the chamber which was either preventing the rounds seating fully or hindering extraction of the cartridges. My normal cleaning was not shifting it and I suspect it had built up over a number of years.

I then bought a couple of carbon removal solutions, of which Boretech's C4 Carbon Killer proved the most effective. It required a couple of days of swabbing the chamber with the solution and letting it sit for some hours (overnight) before scrubbing with a bronze brush and swabbing again. But, in the end, I got rid of all but a small trace of the carbon and the pistol has behaved itself faultlessly ever since. The borescope was the saviour - I was on the verge of getting rid the gun but it is now a joy to shoot, and my preferred ISSF target pistol.

I cannot recommend the borescope strongly enough. Visit teslong.com; the basic rigid pistol borescope for iPhone/Android wifi with mirrors to look at the bore walls (essential) is only US$112 (plus shipping), or cheaper at US$80 for use with a PC. Really good value. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Teslong, I got the recommendation from here on TT (Gwhite again).

Good luck.

Bob

[NukeMMC]

No, he really should endeavor to coach.

Gwhite is doing something (actually, a hell of a lot) to keep the sport going in the US.

On the other hand, Alexander, you complain on the Internet. Stop acting like a jerk.

Keep it up, Gwhite.

I concur!

A coach does not have to be an armorer. Not many armorers can be a coach! If a coach is even an accomplished shooter, it is a bonus. A coach reinforces fundamentals in marksmanship, discipline and LIFE.

[Azmodan]

chance has it i just aquired a teslong borescope (long flexible version NTG100 from aliexpress - $55 shipping included)

here is a video of the GSP 22 bore: https://youtu.be/v8_WJCy5tZk

and a picture of the start of the rifling:

i don;t see any carbon ring...

I cannot recommend the borescope strongly enough. Visit teslong.com;

Good luck.
Bob