Returning to 3 Position: 20+ years later

[adv_rider]

Hello All,

As a junior I shot 3 position smallbore and standing air rifle in the late 90s (3 PAR wasn't on the scene yet). I was good enough to make sectionals and enjoyed the sport tremendously, but then 20 some odd years of adulthood happened. Finally I have gotten back into 3 position shooting with an Anschutz 2002CA that I picked up here awhile ago. At first I just practiced here and there, but I have been able to devote more time lately (well only few hrs a week, which seems as much as a guy in his early 40's can spare).

Assuming you will humor me, I'll be using this thread to ask a few questions that I couldn't find answers to on the forum since I am becoming more serious about 3 PAR. My 10m scores on an AR50 target are in the low 270's - so I am moderately competent and am probably leaving some points on the table since I don't have shooting pants, boots, offhand stand, or a spotting scope. I'm obviously not going to nationals, but am looking to become a better marksman and getting the most out of my equipment.

[adv_rider]

First set of questions deal with diopters/irises and shooting with heavy prescription glasses...

So the air rifle came with a Gehmann D75 front and rear iris set.  The set is fully functional, but I couldn't find much information on the D75 series - not that surprising since manufacture was marked as West Germany ...so are fairly old.  Not sure how they ended up on a 2002CA, but there they are.  This is a plane jane set with no filters.

So the first question is should I think about an iris update/upgrade?  To be honest I doubt my current sights are holding me back, but I have never used filters so am unsure if they make much difference or reduce eye strain.  I do shoot a mix of indoor and outdoor when the weather is nice.  If filtered irises make a large difference, I'd be interested in any iris recommendations. Seems there are filtered irises for the front and rear, but am unsure if one is more advantageous than the other (other than ease of adjustability). If I do get some updated irises I can also use them on my K31 diopter sights.

I'm not big on trying to 'buy points', but since I have never used filters I'd like to hear more about them.

[adv_rider]

Complicating matters is that I wear heavy prescription glasses (my dominant eye is around a -8.25, non dominant around -9).  As such I am not going to wear shooting frames since I can't really function without my prescription glasses and am not going to wear contacts.  The thickness of my prescription glasses do not do me any favors on the shooting line, and from experience I know head position and looking through the same point in my glasses is critical.  My glasses will cause significant red and blue shift depending on the angle I look through my lenses.

For those who shoot with heavy prescription glasses, are there any tips or setup suggestions to help with consistent eye/glasses to sight alignment?  While I am doing this for fun, I would like to try to keep everything ISSF legal.  I have tried stick on and clip on irises and found them to be rather fiddly since they need to be placed in exactly the right spot.  Hard to do when you are in position.

I'd be interesting in hearing how other very nearsighted shooters cope.

[erikre]

I also have poor eyesight with a fairly heavy prescription. I have one of these monoframes from champions choice. It attaches to the rear sight and works great. Just have the place where you get your glasses to cut another lens to fit the frame.

It isn't a real issue when shooting on paper targets because you are using a scope to look at the hits and can adjust the scope to your vision. The issue is when shooting on electronic targets, I can't see the laptop without my glasses. In that case I lift my glasses up and rest them on my head and just move them in place to look at the laptop. I have not experimented with filters and such.

https://www.champchoice.com/mc-optics-s ... -25mm-9450

[alpineboard]

I am kind of in your same situation , many years of past AR and smallbore training followed by a 10 year break. Am back at AR Standing , 5 eves a week.
Have good vision, and use a rear iris, to get the sight picture sharp and clear, I go as dark as possible and still see the picture with ease. Have had best results with a light pink lens, it brightens things up , without burning my eyes for long hours.
After a long period of iron sight practice and not seeing any gain, I chose to train with a 16X scope for a while.
1) with hopes of getting steadier 2) possibly a jump start for me to actually see what is going on better. 3)visually good training for follow thru 4)kind of fun , as I can see the pellet go thru the paper.
After I get to where I want to be, retrained for what I used to be, I fully intend to go back to iron sights.
Understood that not all training sees results right away. This scope thing , is a fun little test for a while.
One item of importance, is I had 10 years of smallbore 3P League/sectionals, using a 18x, and much 200 yd standing with 22x.
It does take time to learn scope, very much so with Standing.
You may benefit using a scope for a while, it can't hurt.

[adv_rider]

Thank you for the replies.

I will look into the idea of the rear sight lens holder, however my local range requires some sort of protective glasses. I still can see benefit in 'locking' my prescription lens to a fixed position. While my eye sight is dog s, I can still load and shoot w/o my glasses.

As for a scope, I am looking to keep things issf legal. I have had magnifying scopes on other rifles and never found them to be of much benefit accuracy wise over diopter sights. Usually I shot markedly worse - not sure if the scope was not set correctly or if scopes do not play well with a pair of heavy prescription glasses. This has been the case for me with 3-4 different scoped rifles, so it seems to be a systematic problem.

[adv_rider]

As for a lensed iris i did find a number of helpful threads. Seems like for indoor they are kinda 'meh'. Some people like the yellow, others don't care. My indoor range lighting is fair, so I have just been stopping down the rear iris if things are bright.

Outdoors the filters sound more helpful.

A few people have suggested just getting a few inserts for the front globe. Easy to clean and nothing mechanical to break - however changes need to be premeditated. I will probably just keep an eye on the buy-sell-trade.

[Tim S]

Do you mean an iris + filters? A lens system in an iris is there to adjust your focal length. These aren't ISSF legal, as there are two lenses, and typically adjust from -4 to +4 dioptres, so well below what you need. Colour filters are not lenses, and just work on contrast. Yellow is useful on many indoor ranges as it cuts the glare from fluorescent light without cutting too much visible light.

If you're worried about not being able to see without your regular glasses, have you thought of two lenses on shooting frames: one regular prescription, and one for shooting (normally distance +.5, so -7.75 to put your focus a little ahead of the foresight).

[adv_rider]

Yes - i used the incorrect term on my earlier post. I was indeed referring to an iris with filters - not an iris with a magnification lens or a corrective lens. I am not considering any options with a true lens as part of a front or rear iris.

So is erikre's suggestion of something like this

https://www.champchoice.com/mc-optics-s ... -25mm-9450

Issf legal?

[Tim S]

So is erikre's suggestion of something like this

https://www.champchoice.com/mc-optics-s ... -25mm-9450

Issf legal?

Yes, that's ISSF legal. Since 2017 a single corrective lens may be attached to the rearsight.

[adv_rider]

Since I started this thread a couple of weeks ago I've adjusted my positions some for more consistent head position. I think has helped eliminate a bit of my prescription glasses distortion, but I I still lose a point here and there if I am not vigilant. This usually happens on prone where I have the tendency to tilt my head forward - which honestly is more of a position problem then a lens problem. Still, I pulled in a couple of 279s this week which I am pleased with considering my lack of practice and basic setup.

One thing I am not in love with is my butt plate carrier. The stacking of shims and spacers for proper LOP is jenky and it is annoying to need an allen wrench to change butt plate height (though no complaints on the actual butt plate which is an Anschutz 4759).

Anybody know if there is something like this that will work with an Anschutz 2002CA laminated stock?
https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product ... -buttplate

Just from looking at the pictures I am fairly certain the butt plate carrier I linked above will NOT work :(

[adv_rider]

Yes, that's ISSF legal. Since 2017 a single corrective lens may be attached to the rearsight.

Thank you for confirming! Good to know it is an option if I can't get my head position consistent.

[Tim S]

One thing I am not in love with is my butt plate carrier. The stacking of shims and spacers for proper LOP is jenky and it is annoying to need an allen wrench to change butt plate height (though no complaints on the actual butt plate which is an Anschutz 4759).

Anybody know if there is something like this that will work with an Anschutz 2002CA laminated stock?
https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product ... -buttplate

Just from looking at the pictures I am fairly certain the butt plate carrier I linked above will NOT work :(

So, currently to adjust LOP you have to loosed the screws that hold on the buttplate and add/remove spacers? No, the buttplate in your link won't fit, it's too new. Back in the day Air Rifles were built with minimal adjustment, and the butt/cheekpiece could only be adjusted with wedges. If there is enough wood in the butt you might be able to inlet for one of these, and the LOP adjustment rods: https://www.intershoot.co.uk/product/an ... e-adaptor/

Alternatively look for a 2002 alu stock (or newer rifle).

PS tilting your head forwards in Prone isn't inherently bad, but if you find you start doing it during a string of fire, perhaps check your position isn't slipping; this could be the sling dropping down your arm, or stretching, or your support hand moving forwards.

[adv_rider]

Yeah, my PCP does have the wedge/spacer arrangement for adjusting LOP and the cheek riser position. I don't need a stock that doubles as a transformer, but the current method of stacking a bunch of different pieces is not the best. I'll probably just make my own spacers as my positions evolve. The laminated stock has large channels for the cheekpiece and butt plate anchor bolts. The bolts themselves thread into plastic anchors in the stock. The whole arrangement seems very German to me - overly complicated and a detriment to actual functionality. If there is an easy bolt on affair I'd be interested, but otherwise the current setup is fine. I'd be more interested in a tool-less way to adjust my butt plate height.

As for my head tilting forward in prone - I agree this normally is not considered bad, however with my heavy prescription glasses sight picture gets distorted depending on what part of the lens I look through. Position of the front sight relative to the rear will appear to shift depending on what area of my glasses I look through. My lenses are concave, so there is a bit more glass by the edge as compared to the center.

[Tim S]

There's a Rhyme and a Reason to the bolts: Anschutz designed these to allow a small degree of asymmetry in the adjustment, and fir adjus6mwnt to be largelt a one time affair. At the time 10M Air rifle was only shot in one position, and the .22 Standard Rifle, which used a near identical stock to your 2002, only permitted adjustment of buttplate height between positions; you had to use the same LOP, cheekpiece height etc for Standing, Kneeling, and Prone. It's noy surprising that in this context Anschutz did not expect that 30+ years later shooters would want to shoot 3P air rifle, or want (or even be allowed) to refit the stock for each position. The demand for adjustment is a factor in metal "transformer" stocks.

I see about the issue with tilting your head, although based on what you've said I'd disagree that it's a position rather than a lens problem. If you are tilting your head forwards to aim, but your regular specs are no longer over your eye, that seems like a lens issue to me. Building a position just to accomodate every day glasses seems suboptimal in the long term.

[adv_rider]

Hi Tim, I certainly see your point with the legacy butt plate design, but I wouldn't call it a good design period. Stacking hollow dowels with shims to push out a carrier that moves when you tighten is just overly finicky. Also requiring that the butt plate height adjustment requires an allen key is silly in a club rifle context. No use complaining (more haha), I'll either make it work or change things.

In prone specs stay over they eye (can't see without them) but I am not looking through the 'center' of the specs and more towards the top edge. Glass is considerably thicker there which causes the sight picture to change/distort. Next time I get my eyes checked I'll inquire about what it would take for a rear lens like erikre suggested.

Thank you for the pointers!

[Martin Catley]

I have heard that putting a lump of plasticene (sp) under the bridge of glasses is an easy way to lift the glasses. To lift the centre point of the lense when your head is tilting. My brother was very short sighted.He put a lense on the rifle and took out the lense of his glasses, left in the other lense so that he could see flags and through spotting scope. Hope that makes sense!

[Tim S]

The plastic inserts in the 2002 (and 1907) are certainly fiddly, but Anschutz had to go with a clamp of some sort. At the time (late 1980s) UIT rules did not permit mechanical adjustment on 10m air and .22 Standard rifles; no winding or clicking the butt and cheekpiece. In the terminology of the day these could be removable (and packed with shims) but not adjustable. From memory Walther and FWB also used shims to adjust. Not many years before the cheekpiece was a solid part of the butt, and adjustment meant rasping chiselling away wood, or building it up with sticky Cork or plastic wood.

The older 1807 .22 or LG380 were less wobbly to adjust, but just moved in-out and up-down. I don't recall any facility to tilt the butt or cheekpiece. Ultimately Anschutz would switch to screw or ratchet mechanisms for macro adjustment once the rules allowed.

Needing an allen key isn't uncommon, and doesn't seem silly to me. Most contemporary Free Rifles, which could be mechanically adjustable, needed an allen key to adjust butt height or cant, or lateral adjustment of the cheekpiece. Fine click or screw adjustment for more than LOP or cheekpiece height has only been common within the past 20 years. Anschutz provided a long allen key with their rifles, do most clubs would gave had these. Again, there wasn't the expectation that users would be adjusting between positions, so an allen key to loosen and tighten wasn't seen as problematic.

[rgibson]

Decot Hy-Wyd shooting glasses have frames with an adjustable nose piece. Puts the center of the lens in front of your eye in all the different positions. With the interchangeable lens capabilities the possibilities are endless. Company name is Decot. They are in Arizona.

[adv_rider]

I've been on travel and dealing with a hectic work schedule the past couple of weeks and got to put in some practice this morning. Got going with a 270 followed by a 276 which isn't bad for me considering the break.

If I get real for a minute my problem is I simply need to put in more practice. I'm able to usually put in about 180 shots a week ( 4x 30 shot 3par, plus sighters, plus a couple of extra targets on whatever was my weakest position for the outing) which I consider rather minimal for progress.

Prone feels very solid, but I always have about 3 or 4 9's which I think may be at least partly due to varying head tilt and looking through different parts of my glasses lens. I'm certainly not calling them as 9's at least. I should video myself to see exactly what I'm doing.

Offhand just needs more practice ... and I should get an offhand stand. Taking the rifle out of my shoulder to rest and reload is not doing me any favors. Still holding upper 80's-90.

I've been working on my kneeling position which is now feeling much more comfortable, however I'm getting a little side to side motion. Front arm is locked in good and tight, but tension between my shoulder and buttplate is a tad loose. I think I may need a little more LOP. I'm usually in the low 90's, so more work is needed.

Someday I'll poke around on the McMaster Carr website to see if I can make a poor mans version of an adjustable buttplate carrier without hacking up my nice laminate stock.