ISSF Ammunition Rules

[j-team]

[

Interestingly, back in 2012, our old friend conradin posted a list of Free Pistols used in Olympics, World Champs and Cups from 1896 and in the first few years, the pistols were centrefire (Sept 2012 - Topic #36503) in calibres from .44 to 7.5. In 1906 someone even used a DWM Swiss Luger, which would have been a 30 calibre (7.62); apart from the .44, nothing as large as the 9mm. After that, I think the pistols were largely .22 and, according to conradin's research, after World War II, .22 was mandated and eventually only .22LR was allowed.

Yes, that's the Olympics, the comment I replied to mentioned World Cups.

For what it's worth, centre fire survived in the Olympics up untill 1972 with 300m rifle, since them all pistol and rifle rimfire and air.

[JamesH]

I shoot .38 special in ISSF competition.
I have taken the Maunrhin .38 Match revolver to both World Championship and Commonwealth games and sometimes the only .38 on the line.
You may have to justify your loads, no jacketed projectiles and loaded to .38 power levels.
Typical is a 148g lead HBWC with 2.7-2.8g Bullseye.
My competition load is a 134g button nose wadcutter loaded to 780 f/s-800 f/s.
Most 9mm will not load down to that level and cycle with lead projectiles.
The bigger calibre auto's I have seen at ISSF comp's are usually model 52's, P240's or hybrid 38 super Colt Officers model (loaded with wadcutter).

I'd be fine with limiting the power factor to 38 wadcutter loads - eg 148x710 = 105 or 134x800 = 107
If thats already the case at ISSF matches then great.

Given the floor for service pistol PF loads is 120 - and they're fairly loud by local standards, I think a limit of 110 would be reasonable for ISSF Centrefire on an enclosed range.
My WA1500 9mm loads are 112, with a little more effort they could be 110 so it can be done.

Now how do I convince PA and the ISSF to ratify this?

[atomicgale]

I'd be fine with limiting the power . . . .

In history, where have we heard these exact words before . . . ?

[David M]

Now how do I convince PA and the ISSF to ratify this?

Best of luck with the ISSF technical committee .
We had a massive problem with them when they first introduced min. velocity of 280 m/s for Rapidfire.
After approaching the technical committee with all the testing and getting no response,
the only way we got it changed to 250 m/s was showing most manufactures that their pistols would fail to meet the 280 m/s requirement.
(Thanks Mister Walther and Pardini)

[MikeMargolis]

I've been on both ends of that situation. Trying to train .22lr or .32 and have a couple of guys with 9mm, and training 9mm and having someone else training with .22lr. It's not good for the one with the smaller caliber.
For 25m center fire pistol you can use a 9mm, as long as it doesn't have a ported barrel and it complies with the rest of the rules.
It doesn't bring you any advantages and it disturbs the guys next to you on the line, but it's permitted by the rules.
I think the spirit of the rule is to leave out things like .357 magnum, or +P ammunition.
The problem you are going to have is that the rule doesn't specify a upper limit to the cartridge power. It probably never needed to, because you have no advantage, and top level competitors don't use them anyway.
You should try to find a way to cope with the situation. Assign the 9mm crowd to a different bay on the range, and the ISSF to another, if space permits, or get them to one side of the bay and the ISSF to another. Both should have the right to shoot.

Hope this helps

Well, you're not wrong, but I shot my highest 50' bullseye score ever, a 294 with a 100 Slow Fire, at a public range in Massachusetts with the guy two ports down shooting an AR-15 5.56, it seemed the whole building was shaking. This is also part of training, to block out everything going on around you and stay on your procedures.

[JamesH]

I'd be fine with limiting the power . . . .

In history, where have we heard these exact words before . . . ?

We're talking about ISSF shooting competitions, all but one of which is limited to .22LR or air, this is hardly a threat to Americans preparing for the return of the redcoats.

[dk114]

Given the floor for service pistol PF loads is 120 - and they're fairly loud by local standards, I think a limit of 110 would be reasonable for ISSF Centrefire on an enclosed range.
My WA1500 9mm loads are 112, with a little more effort they could be 110 so it can be done.

Aren't heavier projectiles more pleasant to shoot, in the sense of milder recoil? I quite like the 9mm with 140gn SWCs at around 950-1000fps, which is more than 110 PF. Can't say they're too loud, either.. A lot of folks where I shoot use 38 revolvers with loads that I'm guessing are somewhere in a similar PF range.

From the personal experience, it's the factory 9mm loads that are most disruptive because they all (or most) are supersonic.

And in regards to using 9mm for shooting decent scores in CF, I think it's quite possible with a decent gun matched to good handloaded ammo.

[m1963]

The best option is to see if you can convert them to real target shooters. Restrict the loads they can shoot so they aren't blasting people with shock waves, and then shame them into learning how to shoot better by showing them what is possible.

From my experience there are very few "combat style" shooters that can actually transition to static target shooting. Similarly, there are extremely few "target" shooters that can react under pressure, and duress, and destroy the target presented. The difference being, "hit" the target vs. "destroy" the target.

For the target shooter, until one has been under fire, and in fear of their life, they should not denigrate what the combat shooter does. Alternatively, the combat shooter should not denigrate target shooting, as they do not understand the discipline and most cannot achieve what the target shooter is doing.

Competitive shooting has a long history, involving many...varied...disciplines. For the OP, perhaps separate range times/separate ranges, for each style of shooting?

[atomicgale]

We're talking about ISSF shooting competitions, this is hardly a threat to Americans preparing for the return of the redcoats.

For the target shooter, until one has been under fire, and in fear of their life, they should not denigrate what the combat shooter does.

. . . especially important once them feisty Redcoats get inside the wire . . . .

[JamesH]

Thats great but my club does not have 'combat shooting', the closest it has is 'Service' which is a bit like PPC.
But PPC is hard work so people prefer to shoot Centrefire to achieve their minimum attendance requirements to own a 9mm

[m1963]

Thats great but my club does not have 'combat shooting', the closest it has is 'Service' which is a bit like PPC.
But PPC is hard work so people prefer to shoot Centrefire to achieve their minimum attendance requirements to own a 9mm

So, the point is not to compete or train, just to own a certain type of handgun? Interesting.

[JamesH]

Here the sole reason you can use to own a pistol is competition shooting.
So people use this as a loophole to obtain their dream gun - typically a 9mm and often a Glock.

Is it possible to shoot ISSF Centrefire with a 9mm Glock? Yes it is. Typical score is ~150/600.
Should we be tolerating these people though?

[Azmodan]

in Romania is the same thing. you need to be a competition sport shooter in order to own a pistol, so people come to the sport for the same reason.
the difference is that you have to shoot above a set threshold...yearly.
for center fire pistol the threshold is 525/600. for PPC is 440/480 or 1250/1500. so everybody is shooting PPC (440 is relatively easy to achieve) to get their gun.

[JamesH]

Here people just have to fire some bullets in the direction of the target
For my club it is north-east
This way it is very easy for people to get their gun.