So I'm really fussy about my stance and I find small variations make a big difference - so I try to make my feet really consistent.
What ISSF competition legal solutions have people found (I believe foot markers are not allowed) to make sure they get their feet consistent? I should add, most of the shooting I do I have to walk and change my card targets. But is it the case that in competition shooters just don't move their feet from beginning to end?
Open question, really, let's talk feet :)
Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
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Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
The solution to your problem is a folding carpenter ruler.
Set it in an L shape and get your feet in the same position every time.
Check a rifle competition to see it in use. The rules are the same for pistol and rifle in this case.
Hope this helps
rmca
Set it in an L shape and get your feet in the same position every time.
Check a rifle competition to see it in use. The rules are the same for pistol and rifle in this case.
rmca
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
Since there is no "Natural Point of Air" (NPA), then you don't need to worry about your foot exact placement. You appear to have convinced yourself that it IS important, so worry about something else, like pellet choice, to take your mind off it.
I've seen guys put down tape and other markers so they can get their feet in exactly the same place when they leave the line. They just look stupid.
I've seen guys put down tape and other markers so they can get their feet in exactly the same place when they leave the line. They just look stupid.
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
Your muscles will tire and stretch over the length of a match. Your NPA will shift with it. Locking you position in at the beginning of a match is a waste of time and will likely mean your NPA is off by the end of the match.
For pistol, I check my NPA every time I get to the firing line, but I can do it very quickly after all this time. It is also not super critical except for Sport or Centerfire Rapid. There, the more consistently the pistol comes up centered on the target, the better.
For pistol, I check my NPA every time I get to the firing line, but I can do it very quickly after all this time. It is also not super critical except for Sport or Centerfire Rapid. There, the more consistently the pistol comes up centered on the target, the better.
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
Consistency is one of the important considerations in achieving ever improving results.
A previous post may have been a polite way of saying to you of the many things needed to improve, repeatedly consistent foot position may not be on the top line - however, consistency is on that line.
The effect of foot position may be examined. If it is too far "off" you'll chance hitting the guy next to you instead of the target (hyperbole, of course). This being the case, you (like many, many others) optimize your shooting potential by optimizing foot position. This is specific to you, your morphology, and your shooting style, and combines with many other considerations in "building your position".
The effect of recording the position you eventually settle on is to be able to repeat it within a reasonable period of time, for the sake of consistency. Knowing what you have, you can vary things in a controlled and semi-scientific way, and go back if the experiments do not work. If you cannot group shots you may need to look at several factors (as the previous post alludes) but you cannot accurately and repeatedly locate the groups without consistency. After a while, you may find your foot positon naturally without artificial aids.
The point of NPA, especially in precision rifle shooting, but pistol shooting as well, is to minimize the muscle involvement in keeping a "hold". If your body says "shoot in this direction" but the target and your sights say "shoot in an alternate direction" , you will use unnecessary muscle activity to achieve this end, with subsequent tension, vibration, fatigue and sway. Without the muscle work, you will return to the body's claim to where the airgun should shoot, often where you don't want it to. Hence, the importance in finding that confluence of NPA and where you are actually aiming, and repeating it with every shot.
Many quality shooters do not move their feet for a series of shots. Watch them. Note also how close many rifle shooters are to their shooting tripods.. This allows them to load and reacquire the target without removing the butt from their shoulder, and with minimal movement of the stock off the tripod, this for time constraints and consistency. Watch the video recordings of the top tier of shooters for validation.
I've attached a picture of my Rube Goldberg grid which works for me. It is cardboard with a plastic office mat on top. I shoot three targets horizontally aligned, so the various lines make a foot placement pattern repeatable. The other marks locate my shooting tripod for each target position. This is for 10m rifle shooting, but works for pistol as well. Contrary to the previous post, moving a foot placement pattern as little as a few mm will move a group a complete ring, without otherwise changing my CG , sights, or other aspects of position.
Check out a whole collection of videos on youtube by Heinz Reinkemeier, and others (including poster rcma ?) on all these subjects - hours worth of education and entertainment.
JE
A previous post may have been a polite way of saying to you of the many things needed to improve, repeatedly consistent foot position may not be on the top line - however, consistency is on that line.
The effect of foot position may be examined. If it is too far "off" you'll chance hitting the guy next to you instead of the target (hyperbole, of course). This being the case, you (like many, many others) optimize your shooting potential by optimizing foot position. This is specific to you, your morphology, and your shooting style, and combines with many other considerations in "building your position".
The effect of recording the position you eventually settle on is to be able to repeat it within a reasonable period of time, for the sake of consistency. Knowing what you have, you can vary things in a controlled and semi-scientific way, and go back if the experiments do not work. If you cannot group shots you may need to look at several factors (as the previous post alludes) but you cannot accurately and repeatedly locate the groups without consistency. After a while, you may find your foot positon naturally without artificial aids.
The point of NPA, especially in precision rifle shooting, but pistol shooting as well, is to minimize the muscle involvement in keeping a "hold". If your body says "shoot in this direction" but the target and your sights say "shoot in an alternate direction" , you will use unnecessary muscle activity to achieve this end, with subsequent tension, vibration, fatigue and sway. Without the muscle work, you will return to the body's claim to where the airgun should shoot, often where you don't want it to. Hence, the importance in finding that confluence of NPA and where you are actually aiming, and repeating it with every shot.
Many quality shooters do not move their feet for a series of shots. Watch them. Note also how close many rifle shooters are to their shooting tripods.. This allows them to load and reacquire the target without removing the butt from their shoulder, and with minimal movement of the stock off the tripod, this for time constraints and consistency. Watch the video recordings of the top tier of shooters for validation.
I've attached a picture of my Rube Goldberg grid which works for me. It is cardboard with a plastic office mat on top. I shoot three targets horizontally aligned, so the various lines make a foot placement pattern repeatable. The other marks locate my shooting tripod for each target position. This is for 10m rifle shooting, but works for pistol as well. Contrary to the previous post, moving a foot placement pattern as little as a few mm will move a group a complete ring, without otherwise changing my CG , sights, or other aspects of position.
Check out a whole collection of videos on youtube by Heinz Reinkemeier, and others (including poster rcma ?) on all these subjects - hours worth of education and entertainment.
JE
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Reporting from the Cascade Subduction Zone...
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
Addendum to my previous long winded post...I shoot rifle left eyed and left handed, explaining the layout of my shooting mat, which would be unworkable for a right handed shooter. A mirror replica would be required.
JE
JE
Reporting from the Cascade Subduction Zone...
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
Pistol shooting is NOT rifle shooting. The demands of a good NPA for rifle are WAY more important than for pistol. The other variables in pistol shooting swamp minor errors in NPA, and obsessing about having a perfect NPA for pistol is a waste of time and energy.
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
GW is of course right about 10m airpistol not being the same as 10m airrifle. I got carried away as I often do, here because my main interest and attention is in rifle shooting. But maybe being aware of and responsive to consistent body position should not be equated to being obsessed with, and wasting time and energy over, consistency.
Quoting another notable coach, D. Nygord:
"Not that we discourage the attitude that “If I had a better gun, I'd shoot better” (after all we are in the business!), but the truth is that hard work on a sound technique is the real way to boost your performance. The problem is the “hard work” part — nobody enjoys that nearly as much as seeing holes appear in paper 10 minutes after you arrive at the range. Still, once you decide that you are serious you will not mind the effort as the results begin to appear. In building your technique, you might as well start at the ground and work up. I like to use the analogy of building a house: you need a good, strong, well designed foundation to support the rest of the structure.
The first idea to dispel is that of finding your “natural stance”. While your physical makeup will have to be factored in (I had one student who had engaged in Kendo for years — he was so muscle-bound he could not hold his arms out straight!), your stance should be based on basic principles and then MADE “natural” by repetition. Almost all elements of a good shooting technique are compromises and we see that in choosing a good body position: the placement of the feet is a compromise between stress on the ankles and legs and the desire to have the widest possible platform for stability. The commonly stated rule of thumb that the feet should be about as far apart as the shoulder width is a good starting point. Next, we must choose how to orient our feet. Again, the oft heard “45° to the firing line” is a reasonable starting place. The feet are set as if along the sides of a triangle — toes out, heels in with the firing line being the base of the triangle and a line through the feet converging behind the shooter as the apex. We choose something near this angle as the best compromise in reducing strain on the body as we divide the 90° to be subtended between the mechanically inefficient ‘facing the target directly on’ and the quite efficient ‘feet parallel to the firing line’ positions. If we were to stand with the feet parallel to the firing line (and some early shooters did!) we put enormous strain on the neck trying to twist the head around enough to sight down the barrel line and we also constrict the carotid artery which is supplying oxygen to the eyes and brain. This is not a good, so we start with the feet as above and subtend the remaining 45° or so by twisting at the hips and ankles about 20-25° and by turning the head for the remainder of the way. Now we have stabilized the back and have distributed the strain throughout the body leaving the neck arteries free and the neck muscles only mildly extended. The head is erect, of course, and so the balancing organs feel correctly oriented.
I recommend you choose a place at home to do your dry firing where you can place and leave tape markers on the floor in the above relationship to the aiming mark on the wall. This way you can step into place exactly the same way each time you begin your dry training. Very quickly your body will “learn” this position/stance and it will become “natural”. Don't be afraid to mark your foot position with chalk or tape at the range and even during the match, either! In a long match, it is recommended you take breaks (or, you may have no choice during scoring breaks). It is very nice to be able to just step back into the exact place and thus eliminate another possible variable. I have seen shooters at world level matches do this, so ignore any odd looks and be confident you are in your stance."
I do not argue with the notion that precise foot placement is of less relative importance in pistol v rifle disciplines, but only that it cannot be completely discounted. You've got to be consistent in setting up, but not obsessed with the process to the detriment of other concerns.
JE
Quoting another notable coach, D. Nygord:
"Not that we discourage the attitude that “If I had a better gun, I'd shoot better” (after all we are in the business!), but the truth is that hard work on a sound technique is the real way to boost your performance. The problem is the “hard work” part — nobody enjoys that nearly as much as seeing holes appear in paper 10 minutes after you arrive at the range. Still, once you decide that you are serious you will not mind the effort as the results begin to appear. In building your technique, you might as well start at the ground and work up. I like to use the analogy of building a house: you need a good, strong, well designed foundation to support the rest of the structure.
The first idea to dispel is that of finding your “natural stance”. While your physical makeup will have to be factored in (I had one student who had engaged in Kendo for years — he was so muscle-bound he could not hold his arms out straight!), your stance should be based on basic principles and then MADE “natural” by repetition. Almost all elements of a good shooting technique are compromises and we see that in choosing a good body position: the placement of the feet is a compromise between stress on the ankles and legs and the desire to have the widest possible platform for stability. The commonly stated rule of thumb that the feet should be about as far apart as the shoulder width is a good starting point. Next, we must choose how to orient our feet. Again, the oft heard “45° to the firing line” is a reasonable starting place. The feet are set as if along the sides of a triangle — toes out, heels in with the firing line being the base of the triangle and a line through the feet converging behind the shooter as the apex. We choose something near this angle as the best compromise in reducing strain on the body as we divide the 90° to be subtended between the mechanically inefficient ‘facing the target directly on’ and the quite efficient ‘feet parallel to the firing line’ positions. If we were to stand with the feet parallel to the firing line (and some early shooters did!) we put enormous strain on the neck trying to twist the head around enough to sight down the barrel line and we also constrict the carotid artery which is supplying oxygen to the eyes and brain. This is not a good, so we start with the feet as above and subtend the remaining 45° or so by twisting at the hips and ankles about 20-25° and by turning the head for the remainder of the way. Now we have stabilized the back and have distributed the strain throughout the body leaving the neck arteries free and the neck muscles only mildly extended. The head is erect, of course, and so the balancing organs feel correctly oriented.
I recommend you choose a place at home to do your dry firing where you can place and leave tape markers on the floor in the above relationship to the aiming mark on the wall. This way you can step into place exactly the same way each time you begin your dry training. Very quickly your body will “learn” this position/stance and it will become “natural”. Don't be afraid to mark your foot position with chalk or tape at the range and even during the match, either! In a long match, it is recommended you take breaks (or, you may have no choice during scoring breaks). It is very nice to be able to just step back into the exact place and thus eliminate another possible variable. I have seen shooters at world level matches do this, so ignore any odd looks and be confident you are in your stance."
I do not argue with the notion that precise foot placement is of less relative importance in pistol v rifle disciplines, but only that it cannot be completely discounted. You've got to be consistent in setting up, but not obsessed with the process to the detriment of other concerns.
JE
Reporting from the Cascade Subduction Zone...
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
The 16 year old women's air pistol winner of 'Winter Airgun' at Camp Perry used a carpenters rule to set her feet. She was very precise in every aspect of her shooting process; and rarely left the line. I suspect she will be a gold medal winner for USA in the near future.
https://usashooting.org/usa-shooting-ho ... pionships/
https://usashooting.org/usa-shooting-ho ... pionships/
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. There's a lot to digest here :)
I think I'm going to get a ruler for the floor - not so I can lock in a foot position forever, but so I can be conscious of my foot position, watch and record how it changes with changes in my NPA, and assess how good I am at using muscle memory to hit my foot position. Over time, I might settle on one position, or I might not. But what is always true is you can only manage what you are measuring.
I think I'm going to get a ruler for the floor - not so I can lock in a foot position forever, but so I can be conscious of my foot position, watch and record how it changes with changes in my NPA, and assess how good I am at using muscle memory to hit my foot position. Over time, I might settle on one position, or I might not. But what is always true is you can only manage what you are measuring.
Re: Foot Markers - ISSF legal solutions?
Legal ?
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