Do We Need Separate Men's and Women's Events

[B Lafferty]

From Winter Nationals at Camp Perry, the two-day scores for the top five competitors in air pistol:

Men
1. 1142
2. 1125
3. 1120
4. 1103
5. 1098

Women
1. 1158
2. 1138
3. 1131
4. 1124
5. 1114

It wasn't too many years ago that women shot 40 shots total while the men shot 60 shots. Given the scores above, my question is whether we really need to have separate events based on gender.

[PirateJohn]

I've been saying this for a long time. If the Olympics did away with gender segregation, there would be more room for different shooting events that have been retired over the years such as double trap, running game target, etc.

[brakarzac]

I've been saying this for a long time. If the Olympics did away with gender segregation, there would be more room for different shooting events that have been retired over the years such as double trap, running game target, etc.

If the events are combined, you would find that some countries and a lot of men/women would stop shooting competitively as the pool to qualify would be doubled from the current numbers!

I don't know what we can't leave this topic alone and just have specific Mens and Women's events. Its worked for many years and no need to change it!

[Azmodan]

if you look at last qualification score in world cups / world championships (the score of the 8th and 9th competitor) you will see that the women are usually 5 to 10 points below men

[B Lafferty]

I've been saying this for a long time. If the Olympics did away with gender segregation, there would be more room for different shooting events that have been retired over the years such as double trap, running game target, etc.

If the events are combined, you would find that some countries and a lot of men/women would stop shooting competitively as the pool to qualify would be doubled from the current numbers!

I don't know what we can't leave this topic alone and just have specific Mens and Women's events. Its worked for many years and no need to change it!

After Plessy vs. Ferguson (1896), separate, but equal "worked" for many years, also. Because it's "worked" for years is not a rational argument for maintaining the status quo.

For many years women only fired 40 shots qualifying. Now they fire 60 just like the men and in some cases outscore the men. We have mixed teams now where the women shoot under the same format with men as teammates. I see no reason why there needs to be a separate classification for women. This is a skill event where there appears to be no inherent physical difference whereby women are necessarily inferior to men needing a separate event. Might this be a cultural attitude of long standing in shooting sport dating back to the 19th Century when women were considered physically and mentally inferior to men? I think so.....

[B Lafferty]

if you look at last qualification score in world cups / world championships (the score of the 8th and 9th competitor) you will see that the women are usually 5 to 10 points below men

In Cairo, Egypt the top five women would have been placed within the top twelve men after the qualifying rounds.

[atomicgale]

On the local level, at the CMP matches - the girls JUST STOMP all us boys. Both rifle and pistol.

[Gwhite]

They didn't used to have separate events, because nobody figured women could ever compete at the same level. They didn't prohibit women from competing, it was just unheard of. Then Margaret Murdoch came along and showed otherwise:

https://olympics.com/en/news/she-deserv ... ing-the-ol

The fragile male egos in most of the world couldn't deal with being beaten by a woman, so they set up separate events. They also adjusted the courses of fire so you couldn't make an easy direct comparison between the scores (i.e. 60 vs 40 shots for air pistol).

Things are slowly changing, but it will be a while before they just have open events (again). There is still a problem with perception that women can't compete on an even level with men. It's hard to recruit new women shooters because many of them don't believe they can compete against the men. Fortunately there are now tons of good counterexamples, if you can get them to stick around long enough to listen.

When we recruit new shooters for the college team I help coach, it helps enormously to have a couple women shooters present and on our publicity posters. Our team actually usually has more women than men, and the Team Captain is often a woman.

[B Lafferty]

They didn't used to have separate events, because nobody figured women could ever compete at the same level. They didn't prohibit women from competing, it was just unheard of. Then Margaret Murdoch came along and showed otherwise:

https://olympics.com/en/news/she-deserv ... ing-the-ol

The fragile male egos in most of the world couldn't deal with being beaten by a woman, so they set up separate events. They also adjusted the courses of fire so you couldn't make an easy direct comparison between the scores (i.e. 60 vs 40 shots for air pistol).

Things are slowly changing, but it will be a while before they just have open events (again). There is still a problem with perception that women can't compete on an even level with men. It's hard to recruit new women shooters because many of them don't believe they can compete against the men. Fortunately there are now tons of good counterexamples, if you can get them to stick around long enough to listen.

When we recruit new shooters for the college team I help coach, it helps enormously to have a couple women shooters present and on our publicity posters. Our team actually usually has more women than men, and the Team Captain is often a woman.

Brava!

[m1963]

Classifications exist so individuals can seek to excel in each class. Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert. Male, female, junior, open, senior. Each grouping provides opportunity, "steps."

Now, adding a super step where the expert male competed against the expert female within a given class; or some other variation, would be intriguing.

I can tell you, my daughter would strive to beat, and most likely would beat, most males in her given class.

[B Lafferty]

Classifications exist so individuals can seek to excel in each class. Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert. Male, female, junior, open, senior. Each grouping provides opportunity, "steps."

Now, adding a super step where the expert male competed against the expert female within a given class; or some other variation, would be intriguing.

I can tell you, my daughter would strive to beat, and most likely would beat, most males in her given class.

The question begs.... what step(s) would a striving woman strive to be? A male? ;-)

[m1963]

She would tell you she strives to be the best, no matter what. Actually, I feel pity for anyone who gets in her way.

[PeeWeeDaddy]

How about swimming?
Weightlifting?
Track?
Wrestling?
Boxing?

[m1963]

Our daughter was a powerlifting champion on a team that held the powerlifting national records, throughout her high school career. In powerlifting there are weight classes, as well. It is a sport for men, and women, but has many different classes.

Our son was the 101st Airborne un-armed combatives champion, and represented the 101st Airborne at the all Army un-armed combatatives championship. He always hated competing against women, in High School wrestling. But, he did it. The women lost. Women do well in the lower weight classes (against men) in wrestling, though.

Some sports certainly are more conducive to equal representation.

[j-team]

Yawn... this has been done to death.

The IOC/ISSF want equal number of participants and an equal number of medals by gender. This will not be the case of you have open events.

That why they have introduced the mixed teams events, so one medal each and everyone can pat themselves on the back and say how great equality is.

You see, it's not about equal opportinities, its about forcing equal outcomes.

[KDZ]

Somewhat related story: When I used to shoot USARB benchrest one of the best shooters was a woman. She and her husband both competed in the same events, sometimes she won / sometimes he did. Even though they bickered at times (they were married), he was always thrilled when she won - seemingly even happier than when he did well.

At one of the Worlds she was in first place after the first cards were shot, though she didn't win overall after all 3 cards.

Someone once said women shooters are easier to coach because they have less ego and follow instructions better.

[Gwhite]

Having helped coach close to a dozen top level women collegiate shooters, the key thing has been that they've never shot before. They don't arrive with any bad habits or preconceived notions about shooting, and they typically have never seen a Dirty Harry movie. We start everyone out with air pistols, and when they can break 500 in a match a couple times, they get to start shooting .22's.

The vast majority of the guys we get who have shot before don't do all that well. They have bad habits, were introduced to shooting with large caliber handguns, or have watched too many action movies. Nowadays, I suspect a lot of them have also spent countless hours playing shoot-em-up video games. Some of them do OK, but it's pretty rare that they end up out-shooting the women.

We had one gal who sounded very promising. She had shot air pistol before, and had received coaching. She even had her own Steyr and Champion shooting glasses. It turns out this was all her parents' big idea, and she really wasn't all that interested in shooting. Her previous coach was an idiot, and had told her all kinds of nonsense. I suspect that soured her on shooting in general, which is a real shame. She dropped out in the first year.

[renzo]

Having helped coach close to a dozen top level women collegiate shooters, the key thing has been that they've never shot before. They don't arrive with any bad habits or preconceived notions about shooting, and they typically have never seen a Dirty Harry movie. We start everyone out with air pistols, and when they can break 500 in a match a couple times, they get to start shooting .22's.

The vast majority of the guys we get who have shot before don't do all that well. They have bad habits, were introduced to shooting with large caliber handguns, or have watched too many action movies. Nowadays, I suspect a lot of them have also spent countless hours playing shoot-em-up video games. Some of them do OK, but it's pretty rare that they end up out-shooting the women.

We had one gal who sounded very promising. She had shot air pistol before, and had received coaching. She even had her own Steyr and Champion shooting glasses. It turns out this was all her parents' big idea, and she really wasn't all that interested in shooting. Her previous coach was an idiot, and had told her all kinds of nonsense. I suspect that soured her on shooting in general, which is a real shame. She dropped out in the first year.

It's exactly like that. I myself teach pistol shooting and have seen this scenario lots of time.

Also, Once I was talking to a friend who runs a driving school, and he concurred with what Gwhite posted, translated to driving: Women are much better pupils, and faster learners because of the absence of previous fantasies.

[B Lafferty]

Having helped coach close to a dozen top level women collegiate shooters, the key thing has been that they've never shot before. They don't arrive with any bad habits or preconceived notions about shooting, and they typically have never seen a Dirty Harry movie. We start everyone out with air pistols, and when they can break 500 in a match a couple times, they get to start shooting .22's.

The vast majority of the guys we get who have shot before don't do all that well. They have bad habits, were introduced to shooting with large caliber handguns, or have watched too many action movies. Nowadays, I suspect a lot of them have also spent countless hours playing shoot-em-up video games. Some of them do OK, but it's pretty rare that they end up out-shooting the women.

We had one gal who sounded very promising. She had shot air pistol before, and had received coaching. She even had her own Steyr and Champion shooting glasses. It turns out this was all her parents' big idea, and she really wasn't all that interested in shooting. Her previous coach was an idiot, and had told her all kinds of nonsense. I suspect that soured her on shooting in general, which is a real shame. She dropped out in the first year.

It's exactly like that. I myself teach pistol shooting and have seen this scenario lots of time.

Also, Once I was talking to a friend who runs a driving school, and he concurred with what Gwhite posted, translated to driving: Women are much better pupils, and faster learners because of the absence of previous fantasies.

Testosterone is a poison....just say'in. :-)

[PeeWeeDaddy]

I am sure the OP was blessed with a daughter and not a son.
Oh well.
I am sure we all know the Kim Rhodes.
Probably no one, male or female can shoot International Trap better.
But her daddy still loves her.