Where are You Aiming Nowadays?

[Scrench]

What a weird game.

Our whole intent is to hit the 10 ring as much as possible, but it seems the majority of us aren't even aiming at what we want to hit! I used to aim dead-on at the bull, with my sights cutting the black circle in half. Then I read that sub-six gives a better sight picture and less stress since there is no black in the background. And it does, but after trying it for a while it seems to me like a shotgun approach. If I hit "somewhere" in the center of that great white open space I should be in the black. That is not working for me because it is too far away from the black for good horizontal alignment, and vertical alignment is just a guess. So, I tried 6:00 which to me improves upon both faults with the sub-six choice, but man, now I don't want to fire the gun unless I'm perfectly lined up where I know it should be, and that causes a lot of stress I don't need. It causes screw-ups in my process to try to get it there.

Now I'm back to aiming at dead center, and I feel so much better to be aiming at what I'm trying to hit. Because of depth-of-field, I have no problem seeing my black sights against the black ring, and horizontal and vertical alignment are automatic because that big black half of a circle tells me what is right. Is there any other shooting sport where they adjust their sights somewhere else, other than where they want to hit? I can't think of any.

Maybe this is part of the reason why no one has ever shot a 600 in international competition. Watching these guys, they hold so steady at sub or 6:00, it seems to me a no-brainer that they should just go ahead and aim at the bullseye.

Is it just me?

[Gwhite]

Years and years of experimentation have shown that sub-six is better for precision events for most shooters. It is also known as "area aiming". When I was on a collegiate team in the 1970's, "area hold" was our secret weapon. All the other schools (mostly military academies) used a six o'clock hold, and we kicked their butts. You need to forget about trying to make everything perfect, because you can't. It seems to me that the problem lies there, and not with where you aim.

You may shoot better for now with a center-hold, but if you really want to shoot at a high level, you need to fix your obsession with having everything perfect. At that point you may find the sub-six is a winner. If you shoot your best aiming at the lower left corner of the target, then go for it. It's not recommended, and I doubt any of the Olympic level shooters use that approach. You can shoot really well using all sorts of weird stances, holds, grips, sight pictures, etc. but in general, it requires a lot more practice than sticking with the "conventional wisdom".

[toddinjax]

Funny I was just a few hours ago thinking about how strange it is that our $2000.00 pistols are set up (below what we want to hit) for "precision" hits on a very specific printed target, but if you wanted to hit almost any other random " target" like a specific nut or leaf on a tree, you're not holding the best tool.
It's sounds odd but is actually fairly common that a particular tool or device that is perfect for one exact use is inappropriate for " kind of similar or related" used. Speed skates for playing hockey, a track bicycle on pavement or a classical guitar playing punk rock.
Oh, sub six. Not as deep below more recently but I should probably do some testing on that.

[Marc Orvin]

Here's what I showed my junior pistol club last week to try to help them understand the sub six hold:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ywzAjeBnwM

[hurt22]

Great video! Thanks for sharing Marc!!

[Scrench]

And that is what is so funny about it.

We spend a lot of time tuning the trigger so that the first stage travel is juuuuuuust right, the break is icicle clean, the second stage is perfect with... ooops... too much creep, start over, then the trigger angle has to perfect to our finger, then the reach to the trigger has to be right, then of course the grip has to fit our hand better, let's see, cant a degree or two this way, nope, too much, back a little, okay, right there, test it, dang, too much again, start over. But wait, I feel a little void on the inside of my palm, break out whatever goop you use to fill that in, and you know what, my palm is not resting flat on the back of the palm shelf, add a little there, then, hey... the tip of my index finger would probably fit a little better and give me a little more control if I took out a millimeter of wood... right... there (some folks even carry rasps and sand paper with them to matches to make on-the-spot adjustments, and some of them are people who scream at others for trying to "buy points." Well, don't you expect to shoot a little better, get more points, from your constant adjustments? At least you didn't have to buy them.) Now lets chrony this sucker... 512 fps, too much, I bet I'll get tighter groups at 508... adjust, test, adjust... But now all these changes have screwed up my alignment. Dang... start over from scratch.

By now you get the point, and I hope you see the fanatic-obsessive almost OCD behavior we all exhibit. We spend so much time trying to adjust the pistol to perfection, every little nuance about it, no matter what it takes, then get to the firing line where all of our cumulative efforts are put to the test, and then we "area aim?" What? Even if it is scientifically proven to give the highest percentage of success, logically, it seems counterintuitive. Our minds automatically know what half of a circle looks like, no thought required. Do Olympic 10 meter rifle shooters aim sub-six?

It's just hilarious to think about it in terms of other sports. To me it's the equivalent of taking a Formula One car with the best possible components known to man, tuned by the best mechanics on Earth, then driving it around a WalMart parking lot. Or wait, that big-game hunter in Africa looking to score his first whatever, wants a clean kill, but doesn't aim at the heart, he aims at the feet? Make up your own stuff and have a good laugh!

That video is the best explanation I've ever seen for sub-six aiming, but the way he breaks it down made it stressful just to watch and have to remember all that stuff at the same time. The rear sight must have perfect light windows left and right, the front sight must be perfectly in the center of them with the top edge aligned with the top of the rear sight, the width of the front blade must be perfectly aligned with the width of the black circle, the space between the black circle and the top of the sights must be equal to the width of the light windows to form a perfect square. And then you want me to focus on just the front sight while I'm trying to maintain total control over the trigger? What the...? Think I'll take up gardening.

I'm not trying to be critical, I just think it's all very funny if you take a step back and look at what we actually do. No wonder our wives and children think we're all crazy. I like to keep things simple. Stand there, see that black dot? Hit it.

Enjoy, and Happy Holidays,
Scrench

[Gwhite]

The best shooters got that way by NOT obsessing over making everything perfect. They got that way by careful training. I have students who will waste an entire evening's practice fussing with their grip, when what they need to work on is their trigger control. Once they have finished with the grip, they rapidly discover it didn't help. The best they get is a momentary "new pistol" boost while they fall back on a careful shot process because the pistol feels different. As soon as they get used to it, they fall back into the same bad habits.

The 10 ring is not that tiny, and you only have to catch it with the edge of a pellet. "Perfect" is NOT required, and striving for it is a great way to mess up your shooting.

[lyoke3]

Gwhite hits the nail on the head here. I am nowhere as experienced in the pistol side of things but can appreciate the obsession with perfection and the virtual arms race of having the best of the best from the side of the house. With that being said, I have chased that perfection in the grip, trigger, shoes, vision, etc. It took away from what is important and the fundamentals. A perfect process with outshoot a perfect grip ten times out of ten. You as the competitor are so much more important to the equation than the gear. You mentioned the Formula One car in the Walmart parking lot, but who is driving it? A Formula One driver with the years of training on the handling and control or a regular guy like me who wouldn't know what to do with the thing. It's the same for pistol, whether you are at the Olympic Training Center or the local backyard air range the challenge is still the same. It is a mastery of self.

[Scrench]

Oh, I agree completely with everything you guys are saying. I hope you understand that I'm just trying to put a little levity into our sport, where sometimes you run into people who really are chasing "perfection" to the point of being unsocial, or worse, not having fun. I really wish we had a legitimate coach around here, I'd be first in line.

But still, I just can't see Doc Holliday plugging Johnny Ringo in the heart by aiming at his genitals:) (Or maybe he really missed badly?)

[Gwhite]

Combat shooting is concerned with "one minute of bad guy" accuracy. Johnny Ringo's heart is a pretty big target at OK Coral distances.

Sport Rapid is not a precision event, and most shooters do use center hold for that.

[porkchop]

Gwhite, what hold would be best for shooting Center Fire and Standard Pistol where you have precision and both timed and rapid fire?
Thank you, Stan

[Gwhite]

We've always shot standard pistol sub-six. Centerfire is like Sport Pistol, where you have precision (sub-six), and rapid (most shoot center, for me, six-o'clock works better). The reason there is a three minute prep & a second sighter series between precision & rapid is so you can re-adjust your sights.

There are even front sights with two heights that you can quickly switch between two settings. There was a thread on those a while back. unfortunately, the "Search" feature ignores both "front" and "sight", so I can't find it.

[-TT-]

Google will happily search TargetTalk by adding "site:www.targettalk.org" to the search terms.

Maybe you're referring to this "folding front sight" product? http://www.joniskeit-1.de/Klappkorn/klappkorn.html

[Gwhite]

Thanks! The one for the GSP is what I remembered. I suspect you could adapt it to some other pistols as well. I'm surprised Pardini doesn't have one.

[porkchop]

Thank you Gwhite and TT, that is very helpful.
Stan

[Scrench]

Gwhite,

I'm not that good of a shot, so I want to go back to square one and learn it correctly. I've searched the forum and found all of the excellent advice you gave someone earlier, copied it, and will study it (they should be made into a sticky, or better yet, you have nearly enough for an excellent book.) But I have three questions I never see answered anywhere. Maybe you can help with them.

In the white-wall drill, is the main purpose to keep the sights aligned as the gun floats around, while trying to squeeze the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights?

Since some grips can be canted, how should your wrist line up with your arm, and how do you "lock" it?

Some videos suggest when standing at the line you should cock your hips out towards the target, then lean your upper torso back to compensate for the weight of the gun and restore equal balance to both legs. But on YT videos I watch of the best shooters, they never do that. They just stand there and shoot. Which is it for mere mortals?

Thank You!

[PirateJohn]

Yeah, that's the focus of white-wall dry fire shooting. Work on having good sight alignment, a smooth trigger pull, and good follow-through. It also trains you to focus on the front sight without the target distracting you.

[Gwhite]

Sight alignment is key. The MEC video mentions briefly that alignment is more important than sight picture. Here's an analysis that I did a few years back that shows it mathematically:

Sight Alignment vs Sight Picture Analysis.pdf

(47.12 KiB) Downloaded 221 times

If you just hold your pistol out, and maintain sight alignment, have someone take a look at how much wobble you have. I'm going to guess it is less than 1/4 of an inch. IF YOU CAN KEEP YOUR SIGHTS ALIGNED, all your shots should fall into a group that small on the target. It's as if you are shooting your shots down a 1/4 inch tube. It's the angular deviation from alignment that spreads your shots out. Instead of firing down a tube, it becomes a funnel.

That said, the biggest problem most shooters have is that they disturb their sight alignment more than their natural wobble with poor trigger control. Until you can dry fire and not see a significant deviation in your sight alignment, the sights won't help you much.

[David M]

What hold would be best for shooting Center Fire and Standard Pistol where you have precision and both timed and rapid fire?
Thank you, Stan

For Precision/Slowfire I use area aim/sub 6 hold and 2/1 rear sight ratio with foresight 70-80% of apparent black width.
For Centirefire Rapid stage/Rapidfire/Wa1500 and Service I use a slightly low hold (top of foresight just under ten ring).
This allows the white level centreline lines to be visable (numbers on WA/Service targets) and also shot fall at ther
shorter distances of 10 and 7 yds.
Same width foresight but open up rearsight width towards 3/1. Better for speed shooting.

[Scrench]

Thank you for confirming that PirateJohn, and thank you Gwhite for breaking it down and giving me hope that if I can maintain sight alignment my scores should dramatically improve. Your analysis clearly shows what's going on, and I downloaded your shot analysis chart. Right now, I'm stuck in the mid 70's with occasional trips into the 80's (shot a 87 the other day, tried to replicate what I did, then shot a 64 ????? followed by some low 70's. Wanted to quit forever.) I've only held black a couple of times in my life. If I could just become a consistent upper 80's shooter I'd be a happy camper.

I think my problem is that once on target, I am fighting to keep sight alignment, while riding my arc of movement, then when I see the spot I want to hit, I ambush the bull as Rover would say, but I'm too late and probably induce some kind of movement to knock off the alignment even more. I have never felt a surprise shot because I consciously fire when things seem lined up. To me it just feels wrong to start rolling the trigger back without pause until it breaks when I am still wandering all over the target. That would be the hardest thing to overcome for me. Is it just a leap of faith?

I have pretty good trigger control since I used to shoot benchrest and won my share of matches, but of course that rifle was anchored to a bench, not moving, although I am very conscious of gently pulling the trigger straight back. I'd rank that as a minor concern for me right now. I have bigger fish to fry. I never really practiced sight alignment for the sake of itself. Another bad habit is I have no follow-thru at all. I figure that once I hear the pellet strike the target, what is the point of holding any longer since the pellet is already home. Just typing all of this tells me I need serious work!

Hey, Rover! I found your Shooting Correction Chart. If you want, you can remove all of the "You Suck's" and put my picture there. Give 'em something to shoot at.