It looks like a "dun deal" to me.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.48232.0
Rifle Shooting Clothing
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Mike Schroeder
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
Hi
I'm a 4-H Rifle Instructor, and a fairly new one, so I'm not starting with a mountain of knowledge. I only have one question in this so far, What side pockets and right shoulder closures are we talking about? ISSF (I thought) used buttons only.
2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48234.48232
I'm a 4-H Rifle Instructor, and a fairly new one, so I'm not starting with a mountain of knowledge. I only have one question in this so far, What side pockets and right shoulder closures are we talking about? ISSF (I thought) used buttons only.
2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48234.48232
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David Levene
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: I'm a 4-H Rifle Instructor, and a fairly new one, so I'm not starting with a mountain of knowledge. I only have one question in this so far, What side pockets and right shoulder closures are we talking about? ISSF (I thought) used buttons only.
: 2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
Beats me I'm afraid.
I am a short-and-shakey (pistol) shooter rather than a long-and-wobbly one.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.48235.48234
: 2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
Beats me I'm afraid.
I am a short-and-shakey (pistol) shooter rather than a long-and-wobbly one.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.48235.48234
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Pat McCoy
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: I'm a 4-H Rifle Instructor, and a fairly new one, so I'm not starting with a mountain of knowledge. I only have one question in this so far, What side pockets and right shoulder closures are we talking about? ISSF (I thought) used buttons only.
Most jackets have a pocket on them, which will have to be removed. The shoulder closure is usually one or two adjustable straps on the back of the right shoulder of the jacket (for a right handed shooter).
patmccoyagency-at-wyoming.com.48237.48234
Most jackets have a pocket on them, which will have to be removed. The shoulder closure is usually one or two adjustable straps on the back of the right shoulder of the jacket (for a right handed shooter).
patmccoyagency-at-wyoming.com.48237.48234
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akihmsa
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
I'm a wobbly pistol guy myself, and got out of rifle in the 70's when the cement overcoats became popular. I don't have a problem with them for others, but they weren't the direction I wanted to go in. In summer shooting pistol with jeans and a tee shirt is more my style, though a wobbley style at that ;~) : : I'm a 4-H Rifle Instructor, and a fairly new one, so I'm not starting with a mountain of knowledge. I only have one question in this so far, What side pockets and right shoulder closures are we talking about? ISSF (I thought) used buttons only.
: : 2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
: Beats me I'm afraid.
: I am a short-and-shakey (pistol) shooter rather than a long-and-wobbly one.
.48239.48235
: : 2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
: Beats me I'm afraid.
: I am a short-and-shakey (pistol) shooter rather than a long-and-wobbly one.
.48239.48235
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Mike McDaniel
Rules on back braces?
I don't fault the ISSF for deep-sixing the "space suits". But I can also understand the concerns about back trouble. What are the rules about back braces? I know that upper forearm "tennis elbow" straps have been allowed, on the grounds that they do not enhance performance, just allow an injured competitor to do his best. Other sports have done likewise. It would seem that a backbrace would be within the spirit of the rules. What about the letter?
HMSLion-at-aol.com.48245.48232
HMSLion-at-aol.com.48245.48232
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David Levene
Re: Rules on back braces?
: I know that upper forearm "tennis elbow" straps have been allowed...............
Can I ask where you got that from. I have not seen any change to 8 .4.9
"The use of any devices, means or garments, that support orimmobilize the shooter's body, arms, wrist, legs or ankles are not allowed."
Seems pretty clear to me.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.48246.48245
Can I ask where you got that from. I have not seen any change to 8 .4.9
"The use of any devices, means or garments, that support orimmobilize the shooter's body, arms, wrist, legs or ankles are not allowed."
Seems pretty clear to me.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.48246.48245
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Martin H
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: Hi
: I'm a 4-H Rifle Instructor, and a fairly new one, so I'm not starting with a mountain of knowledge. I only have one question in this so far, What side pockets and right shoulder closures are we talking about? ISSF (I thought) used buttons only.
: 2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
: Mike
: Wichita KS
Mike
The right shoulder closure device is two small straps that buckle over the right shoulder (for a right hand shooter) and takes up the excess material that bunches up above the butt plate.
Martin
mhunt-at-hortresearch.co.nz.48247.48234
: I'm a 4-H Rifle Instructor, and a fairly new one, so I'm not starting with a mountain of knowledge. I only have one question in this so far, What side pockets and right shoulder closures are we talking about? ISSF (I thought) used buttons only.
: 2. Shooting jackets. Present 2.5 mm thick shooting jackets will continue to be permitted, but side pockets and right shoulder closure devices must be removed.
: Mike
: Wichita KS
Mike
The right shoulder closure device is two small straps that buckle over the right shoulder (for a right hand shooter) and takes up the excess material that bunches up above the butt plate.
Martin
mhunt-at-hortresearch.co.nz.48247.48234
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akihmsa
Re: Rules on back braces?
If you allow back supports for the injured soon everyone will be "injured" if they think the supports will help their scores. The biggest help to reduce injuries would be to lower the weight limit on the guns to 7 or 8 lbs but the protests would be deafening since most would have to buy a new rifle. No easy answers I am afraid. : I don't fault the ISSF for deep-sixing the "space suits". But I can also understand the concerns about back trouble. What are the rules about back braces? I know that upper forearm "tennis elbow" straps have been allowed, on the grounds that they do not enhance performance, just allow an injured competitor to do his best. Other sports have done likewise. It would seem that a backbrace would be within the spirit of the rules. What about the letter?
.48249.48245
.48249.48245
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Pat McCoy
Re: Rules on back braces?
But I can also understand the concerns about back trouble. What are the rules about back braces?
I doubt if "braces" of any kind are within the letter or spirit of the rules. We are supposed to be "athletes". It has taken me 9 years of exercising, plus a change in offhand position, but I no longer have backache from sshooting offhand. Part of the answer (IMHO) is strengthening the core muscles (back, stomach, laterals), and part is replacing the old back bend and twist method of offhand shooting with the "upper torso shift" method.
We have changed several of our juniors to the new method, with elimination of the backaches.
patmccoyagency-at-wyoming.com.48253.48245
I doubt if "braces" of any kind are within the letter or spirit of the rules. We are supposed to be "athletes". It has taken me 9 years of exercising, plus a change in offhand position, but I no longer have backache from sshooting offhand. Part of the answer (IMHO) is strengthening the core muscles (back, stomach, laterals), and part is replacing the old back bend and twist method of offhand shooting with the "upper torso shift" method.
We have changed several of our juniors to the new method, with elimination of the backaches.
patmccoyagency-at-wyoming.com.48253.48245
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JP O'Connor
Re: Rules on back braces?
: But I can also understand the concerns about back trouble. What are the rules about back braces?
: I doubt if "braces" of any kind are within the letter or spirit of the rules. We are supposed to be "athletes". It has taken me 9 years of exercising, plus a change in offhand position, but I no longer have backache from sshooting offhand. Part of the answer (IMHO) is strengthening the core muscles (back, stomach, laterals), and part is replacing the old back bend and twist method of offhand shooting with the "upper torso shift" method.
: We have changed several of our juniors to the new method, with elimination of the backaches.
----
I agree with you, Pat... a properly constructed position, using sound physiological principles, using a rifle of appropriate weight matched to the athlete's size and strength, and a proper physical training will result in virtually no problems with the back in the vast majority of athletes. As Gary said, there were some problems both before and after... no doubt due to the above factors.
I teach a very "upright" or "straight" standing position as a starting point since it is very stable and places much less strain on the athlete.
I personally know one athlete who did have to leave the sport due to back problems. He had injured his back at age 14 in a climbing fall, and he used a very deep back bend in his position so that he was always strained and aggrevated the old injury. This caught up to him at about age 20 and he had to put down the rifle. Very sad, as he enjoyed it and had been to a couple of World Cups.
Another athlete, at age 16, totally rebuilt her standing position (due to significant pain and poor stability)... changing from a deep back bend (she was yet another athlete using the "banana" style deep back bend position!) to a very upright position. This, in spite of her short stature and powerful build. In spite of the radical nature of the changes, she was open minded, motivated, worked hard with the new position, and was ready for a major national competition (winning jr and sub-jr classes) only three weeks after the change. Yes, this is extreme, but she did it! Motivation was the key. Now 19 and a very active shooter, she still has little or no problem with her back and shoots very well on the world circuit.
"Feel Center!"
-JP
jpoc-at-acm.org.48255.48253
: I doubt if "braces" of any kind are within the letter or spirit of the rules. We are supposed to be "athletes". It has taken me 9 years of exercising, plus a change in offhand position, but I no longer have backache from sshooting offhand. Part of the answer (IMHO) is strengthening the core muscles (back, stomach, laterals), and part is replacing the old back bend and twist method of offhand shooting with the "upper torso shift" method.
: We have changed several of our juniors to the new method, with elimination of the backaches.
----
I agree with you, Pat... a properly constructed position, using sound physiological principles, using a rifle of appropriate weight matched to the athlete's size and strength, and a proper physical training will result in virtually no problems with the back in the vast majority of athletes. As Gary said, there were some problems both before and after... no doubt due to the above factors.
I teach a very "upright" or "straight" standing position as a starting point since it is very stable and places much less strain on the athlete.
I personally know one athlete who did have to leave the sport due to back problems. He had injured his back at age 14 in a climbing fall, and he used a very deep back bend in his position so that he was always strained and aggrevated the old injury. This caught up to him at about age 20 and he had to put down the rifle. Very sad, as he enjoyed it and had been to a couple of World Cups.
Another athlete, at age 16, totally rebuilt her standing position (due to significant pain and poor stability)... changing from a deep back bend (she was yet another athlete using the "banana" style deep back bend position!) to a very upright position. This, in spite of her short stature and powerful build. In spite of the radical nature of the changes, she was open minded, motivated, worked hard with the new position, and was ready for a major national competition (winning jr and sub-jr classes) only three weeks after the change. Yes, this is extreme, but she did it! Motivation was the key. Now 19 and a very active shooter, she still has little or no problem with her back and shoots very well on the world circuit.
"Feel Center!"
-JP
jpoc-at-acm.org.48255.48253
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GaryN
upper torso shift?
Could you explain the "upper toso shift."
I have an injured back and I'm interested in any stance change that reduces the stress on my lower back.
tnx
Gary
.48256.48253
I have an injured back and I'm interested in any stance change that reduces the stress on my lower back.
tnx
Gary
.48256.48253
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JerryL
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: It looks like a "dun deal" to me.
Has anyone heard any rumors as to what the NRA is considering in light of the ISSF decision? Any best guesses if they will follow suit?
A4ester-at-aol.com.48285.48232
Has anyone heard any rumors as to what the NRA is considering in light of the ISSF decision? Any best guesses if they will follow suit?
A4ester-at-aol.com.48285.48232
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Mike Schroeder
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: Most jackets have a pocket on them, which will have to be removed. The shoulder closure is usually one or two adjustable straps on the back of the right shoulder of the jacket (for a right handed shooter).
Thanks to Martin and Pat. I don't see why keeping the material from bunching is so bad, and I REALLY don't see how removing pockets is going to improve competition.
Do we still get those stands for offhand?
I actually do understand why they're getting out of the pants that are basically also a back brace since it's a support. BUT didn't the courts allow a golfer to use a cart in violation of the PGA's rules. Shooting (Not the olympics) is a sport for a lot of old fat guys. I'm 42 and my waist is nearing my chest size.... This would tend to force people into Benchrest. Is that what the smallbore world wants. A few more people would watch this if they also competed.
Just a thought
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48286.48237
Thanks to Martin and Pat. I don't see why keeping the material from bunching is so bad, and I REALLY don't see how removing pockets is going to improve competition.
Do we still get those stands for offhand?
I actually do understand why they're getting out of the pants that are basically also a back brace since it's a support. BUT didn't the courts allow a golfer to use a cart in violation of the PGA's rules. Shooting (Not the olympics) is a sport for a lot of old fat guys. I'm 42 and my waist is nearing my chest size.... This would tend to force people into Benchrest. Is that what the smallbore world wants. A few more people would watch this if they also competed.
Just a thought
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48286.48237
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Pat McCoy
Re: upper torso shift?
: Could you explain the "upper toso shift."
Bob Foth demonstrated this once several years ago at the Coaches Conference, but I didn't "get it" until one on my juniors who is also a dancer showed me how to do it.
Start by standing upright with feet about 15" -18" apaart (a little narroweer is better at first, to learn how to shift). Extend both arms strainght out to the side, level with your shoulders. Now you shift your upper torso to the left (or right), without tilting your shoulders (watch yourself in a mirror), and without throwing your hip forward (to the opposite side of the "shift"). You may need someone to hold your hips still wheen you first start.
This is a great stretching exercise for those with tight backs. I find a few shifts both ways during the day when I get "caught in the chair" for too long really helps.
You might envision this "shifting" as the type seen when "belly dancers" mover their upper torso left and right.
This will feel strange when in position at first, and like any change takes awhile to show results.
patmccoyagency-at-wyoming.com.48293.48256
Bob Foth demonstrated this once several years ago at the Coaches Conference, but I didn't "get it" until one on my juniors who is also a dancer showed me how to do it.
Start by standing upright with feet about 15" -18" apaart (a little narroweer is better at first, to learn how to shift). Extend both arms strainght out to the side, level with your shoulders. Now you shift your upper torso to the left (or right), without tilting your shoulders (watch yourself in a mirror), and without throwing your hip forward (to the opposite side of the "shift"). You may need someone to hold your hips still wheen you first start.
This is a great stretching exercise for those with tight backs. I find a few shifts both ways during the day when I get "caught in the chair" for too long really helps.
You might envision this "shifting" as the type seen when "belly dancers" mover their upper torso left and right.
This will feel strange when in position at first, and like any change takes awhile to show results.
patmccoyagency-at-wyoming.com.48293.48256
-
Mac
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: It looks like a "dun deal" to me.
So, where is the medical evidence then? Which peer-group medical and/or sport science journals is it published in? Last time I looked progress is not defined by turning the clock back to when the administrators were young.
Come on US shooters, Mr Anderson is one of yours, put him on the spot and make him answerable to you! He's sure not listening to shooters anywhere else in the world.
.48302.48232
So, where is the medical evidence then? Which peer-group medical and/or sport science journals is it published in? Last time I looked progress is not defined by turning the clock back to when the administrators were young.
Come on US shooters, Mr Anderson is one of yours, put him on the spot and make him answerable to you! He's sure not listening to shooters anywhere else in the world.
.48302.48232
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akihmsa
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
Hi Mike
The Shooting sports have been catering to the old guys maybe a bit too much with red dots dominating Bullseye and too many supports. Most likely you'll find you do just fine without all the extras and the sports will get a bit less costly in the bargain. Just a thought from another old guy ;~) Will they give us a chair to shoot off hand from next?:
: : Most jackets have a pocket on them, which will have to be removed. The shoulder closure is usually one or two adjustable straps on the back of the right shoulder of the jacket (for a right handed shooter).
: Thanks to Martin and Pat. I don't see why keeping the material from bunching is so bad, and I REALLY don't see how removing pockets is going to improve competition.
: Do we still get those stands for offhand?
: I actually do understand why they're getting out of the pants that are basically also a back brace since it's a support. BUT didn't the courts allow a golfer to use a cart in violation of the PGA's rules. Shooting (Not the olympics) is a sport for a lot of old fat guys. I'm 42 and my waist is nearing my chest size.... This would tend to force people into Benchrest. Is that what the smallbore world wants. A few more people would watch this if they also competed.
: Just a thought
: Mike
: Wichita KS
.48309.48286
The Shooting sports have been catering to the old guys maybe a bit too much with red dots dominating Bullseye and too many supports. Most likely you'll find you do just fine without all the extras and the sports will get a bit less costly in the bargain. Just a thought from another old guy ;~) Will they give us a chair to shoot off hand from next?:
: : Most jackets have a pocket on them, which will have to be removed. The shoulder closure is usually one or two adjustable straps on the back of the right shoulder of the jacket (for a right handed shooter).
: Thanks to Martin and Pat. I don't see why keeping the material from bunching is so bad, and I REALLY don't see how removing pockets is going to improve competition.
: Do we still get those stands for offhand?
: I actually do understand why they're getting out of the pants that are basically also a back brace since it's a support. BUT didn't the courts allow a golfer to use a cart in violation of the PGA's rules. Shooting (Not the olympics) is a sport for a lot of old fat guys. I'm 42 and my waist is nearing my chest size.... This would tend to force people into Benchrest. Is that what the smallbore world wants. A few more people would watch this if they also competed.
: Just a thought
: Mike
: Wichita KS
.48309.48286
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TomW
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: Hi Mike
: The Shooting sports have been catering to the old guys maybe a bit too much with red dots dominating Bullseye and too many supports. Most likely you'll find you do just fine without all the extras and the sports will get a bit less costly in the bargain. Just a thought from another old guy ;~) Will they give us a chair to shoot off hand from next?:
This may happen in the USA but it doesn't happen here (Australia). In my view the shooting sports should be able to accommodate everyone from fit junior to decrepit old bloke with severe physical disadvantages. You won't get a supportive infrastructure by restricting the sports to the perfectly fit only.
It's about time the shooting sports moved into the 21st century and went more to optical and electronic sights rather than limiting people to old fashioned apertures, which suit people with perfect vision but aren't a lot of fun for those with eye defects, prescription lenses notwithstanding.
For the purists out there who are starting to go red in the face at this suggestion, perhaps we should be doing all of our shooting using matchlocks instead of modern rifles and ammo, just to be consistent in our approach. If it's OK to use the latest and best in rifles and ammo, why doesn't the same hold true for sights etc?
twoodle1-at-bigpond.net.au.48310.48309
: The Shooting sports have been catering to the old guys maybe a bit too much with red dots dominating Bullseye and too many supports. Most likely you'll find you do just fine without all the extras and the sports will get a bit less costly in the bargain. Just a thought from another old guy ;~) Will they give us a chair to shoot off hand from next?:
This may happen in the USA but it doesn't happen here (Australia). In my view the shooting sports should be able to accommodate everyone from fit junior to decrepit old bloke with severe physical disadvantages. You won't get a supportive infrastructure by restricting the sports to the perfectly fit only.
It's about time the shooting sports moved into the 21st century and went more to optical and electronic sights rather than limiting people to old fashioned apertures, which suit people with perfect vision but aren't a lot of fun for those with eye defects, prescription lenses notwithstanding.
For the purists out there who are starting to go red in the face at this suggestion, perhaps we should be doing all of our shooting using matchlocks instead of modern rifles and ammo, just to be consistent in our approach. If it's OK to use the latest and best in rifles and ammo, why doesn't the same hold true for sights etc?
twoodle1-at-bigpond.net.au.48310.48309
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GaryN
Re: upper torso shift?
OK, I think I understand, not that I dance (grin).
It does move the CG back, but it seems to put an S curve into the back. It's something to take a look at, but I think my physical therapist will have a fit. Got to talk it over with her.
thanks
Gary
.48318.48293
It does move the CG back, but it seems to put an S curve into the back. It's something to take a look at, but I think my physical therapist will have a fit. Got to talk it over with her.
thanks
Gary
.48318.48293
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-
Re: Rifle Shooting Clothing
: : It looks like a "dun deal" to me.
: So, where is the medical evidence then? Which peer-group medical and/or sport science journals is it published in? Last time I looked progress is not defined by turning the clock back to when the administrators were young.
: Come on US shooters, Mr Anderson is one of yours, put him on the spot and make him answerable to you! He's sure not listening to shooters anywhere else in the world.
---
He wrote the article, not the rule!
As much as people may dislike the change, it does make sense and is for the best. Short term "pain" at first, but long term best.
The medical evidence is well known by those who pay attention... athletes who use extreme positions and do not do any physical training for their back hurt their back... with or without the pants. Athletes who do the right thing don't hurt their back... even when not using any stiff pants as with many young athletes.
Read the entire article again, very carefully without emotion. It makes sense.
Get over it.
.48323.48302
: So, where is the medical evidence then? Which peer-group medical and/or sport science journals is it published in? Last time I looked progress is not defined by turning the clock back to when the administrators were young.
: Come on US shooters, Mr Anderson is one of yours, put him on the spot and make him answerable to you! He's sure not listening to shooters anywhere else in the world.
---
He wrote the article, not the rule!
As much as people may dislike the change, it does make sense and is for the best. Short term "pain" at first, but long term best.
The medical evidence is well known by those who pay attention... athletes who use extreme positions and do not do any physical training for their back hurt their back... with or without the pants. Athletes who do the right thing don't hurt their back... even when not using any stiff pants as with many young athletes.
Read the entire article again, very carefully without emotion. It makes sense.
Get over it.
.48323.48302