Survey ... how much will we pay for a FP compensator ... ?

[mako]

<center><img src="http://images5.fotki.com/v54/photos/4/4 ... "></center>

makofoto-at-earthlink.net.47993.0

[Paul T (UK)]

For me, the sole motivation for the compensator is shot calling but without compromising accuracy. The standard front foresight holder and for that matter the standard compensator both hold sub X ring groups with Midas L.
Francesco provided valuable information to establish optimal compensator placement whilst ammunition testing and I will complete this. I will also be looking for reasonable cost training ammunition such as Pistol King/S&K.
Before playing, I will wait for the details to be posted by David M as I used to have the Walther air pistol and in fact still have the “compensator” for this model so I can see his point well. I would rather spend my time available shooting and training rather than R&D time on developing an alternative compensator at the moment. R&D time would be increased as in the UK, any compensator sold requires a visit to the proof house!
I would naturally be interested to view results of others if they have the skill/time/resources to do this R&D. I would however also be interested in a sustained accuracy comparison with the standard Morini compensator. After all, Francesco and team must have spent a lot of time producing this unit and the result of elite FP shooters is proof it works!
The standard Morini compensator was £60 in the UK.
I spotted a few posts on CM84e balance. The UK model certainly addresses this issue with the rear integral counter weights rails that can have weights attached. I use one weight each side to remove the resonance of the rails (the rails are a UK legal requirement for overall length). Mako I don’t know how to post pictures but can email you some if anybody wants UK pics. The UK model is approaching 1.4 kg, higher than the standard model. The natural balance point is just forward of the breach so the increased weight is less noticeable and the flexibility for the movement of rear weights and the front sight/compensator unit allow personal preferences.

.47995.47993

[tck]

I would like to try one on my Morini 84E if it is something around $50 - 70.
I have the original Morini compensator but unfortunately, there is only 2 types of Lapua .22 bullets available in our city, club and Master M, so we can never have the chance to try the bullet and compensator combination..
.47996.47993

[Bill Abernethy]

Mako,
I'm always curious why people want a comp on a free pistol. I recall an article written some time ago by (I think) Gil Hebard that argued convincingly that compensators resulted in enlarged groups (this testing was done with bullseye pistols). I had a compensator on my Steyr FP and soon took it off because of lead and crud build up that was all but impossible to remove. Compensators on AP's are another matter since almost nothing is left behind.
I'll see if I can find that article and reference it.
Bill Abernethy

bill-at-wccnet.org.47999.47993

[Mark.]

I'm curious to know how these rear rails attach to the frame of the pistol, and what impact they would have on grips/sights. I ask this from the standpoint of a current owner who would consider some of the "longarm" modifications to obtain better Centre of Gravity.

Mark.
.48002.47995

[Mark.]

Hi Bill,
Compensator design is definitely evolving. I've taken a look at the comp on the Steyr and just from visual inspection could see it would clog up in no time. The new comp on the Morini has fairly large holes - maybe 0.2" diameter, and it doesn't clog up. Likewise, the comp on the FP-10 has huge ports that will go a long time without needing to be cleaned. Since this unit is built in two pieces it's actually quite easily cleaned too. The Morini comp removes from the barrel easily which likewise makes it a snap to clean. Let's hople the old days of crud-encrusted compensators are gone forever!
As for why one would want a compensator on an FP, Paul T hit that nail on the head. It makes the gun much more stable at the time of discharge and allows one to call the shot much better. I can call the general vicinity of shot placement with just the "bloop tube" on the CM-84E. With the compensator installed I can tell exactly where the shot landed. When the shots are "sweet" I can only say they're solid 9's or 10's because there's so little movement in the muzzle.
One thing this has helped me do is close my group size by providing clearer feedback to me. In turn, this allows me to create a direct mental linkage between the shot process and the result. This has driven me to focus more on grip pressure to cut down the extreme spread of flyers. I'm by no means an expert, but I can say that shooting with the compensator installed has been of great benefit to me.

Mark.
PS: I still can't resist the appeal of the Steyr free pistol. Some day I'll own one, just to have one...
.48003.47999

[Mark.]

I would be interested in compensating both my TOZ and Hammerli 150. Since the Hammerli barrel is common to the 150, 152, 160 and 162, a single part could cover several models.
That having been said, I'd be OK with the $50 - $60 range.
From a technical standpoint, I would suggest the FP-10 comp design might be easier and cheaper to produce, and would likely be more easily adapted to different pistols.
Any comp should also have an integral sight-mounting rail allowing for multiple sight installation locations (to facilitate adjustment of sight radius). This rail should be common between all models, which means we should be able to use the same front sight on all our compensated guns. And the manufacturer of the comp needs also to offer a variety of sight heights and widths to accomodate the needs of shooters.
.48006.47993

[Bill Abernethy]

Hi Mark,:
I agree with you about the positive effects of compensators on one's shooting; I'm just a little sceptical as to whether one can be designed that won't crud up pretty quickly. I hope it can, and if so I will use it!
Bill


bill-at-wccnet.org.48011.48003

[mako]

Since, at least with the Morini 84E compensator ... one must/should test to find the fore/aft position that gives best accuracy ... it would seem that one must keep it pretty clean ... because, as the holes clog up ... it would seem that there would be a change in accuracy?
I know that crud build up on the crown of the TOZ can effect accuracy ... it certainly does on Eric Buljungs TOZ ... and I would think that a compensator might cause quicker crud build up ...
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.48012.48003

[akihmsa]

In my personal case the money spent for a compensator would be better spent on practice as there are more points for me to gain by becoming a better shot than trying to gain a few thousandths in group size with more gadgets and gizmos. That is my case and may not be the case for those at the very top of the game. : We've found someone who can make us a FP compensator like this one ... or modified however WE want. More upwards facing ports to equalize recoil? Suggestions? Design to make cleaning easier?
: This company needs to know how much we are willing to pay? I have no idea what these things cost? The simplier Nygord AIR pistol compensator costs only $50. How much is the Morini compensator?
: Also ... on which Free Pistol should it fit?

.48014.47993

[Mark]

I might want one mainly for a longer sight radius for a Toz.
.48018.47993

[Jim]

The article is in the Gil Hebard Pistol Shooters Treasury. The article describes testing High standard supermatics with and without compensators and in barrel lengths from 5 to 10".
The findings were that groups did enlarge somewhat. Hopefully, compensator design has improved in 40 years!
For my 2 cents, (and maybe $50-80) I'd like to see a comp for the Hammerli 150, 152, 160,162. Perhaps the designers could measure barrel diameters of ALL typical free pistols and see if there are any common diameters. Or for that matter, any model/brand which varies significantly in this detail to warrant potential problems. How consistent are TOZ barrels at the muzzzle, for example?.....After all, they do vary in terms of maker (Baikal, Vostok) and many small details such as grip screw placement.....
Jim


james.buckland-at-converse.edu.48061.47999

[Mark.]

Definition of "quickly" is going to be very subjective. I've now shot three full matches, plus sighters, plus a few extra rounds in between... All without cleaning my CM-84E compensator. I can see some material resting in the vent holes, but very little. The majority of the crud is actually in the forward-most end of the compensator, and even that is pretty minimal. Just my gut feeling, but I suspect most shooters would be happy if they only had to clean their guns every third match. I'm going to try to extend this one out to the equivalent of a brick of ammo before cleaning, just to see how it works. Results will follow sometime in the next few weeks.

Mark.
PS: My Morini is a new one, and I suspect the Morini comp is different from the ones supplied way back when the CM84 first came out. I, too, had heard of the comp's clogging up, but so far haven't seen any evidence in my to support that theory.
.48134.48011

[mako]

"Quickly" certainly depends on how much the shooter shoots ... elite team shooters might average 400 shots a week, year around ... so for them "quickly" might be just that ... :-)

makofoto-at-earthlink.net.48176.48134