Trigger stage positions

[Agt. Smith]

Ok - I pray for patience with the new guy........

So, where does the conventional knowledge have the first stage trigger pull being completed (or executed)? I think I've been pulling it in WAY too late.

This morning I was experimenting, and tried to pull through the first stage just before passing over the bull. It seemed to work better than what I was doing. Could be wishful thinking - but I think my groups were better, and my "outliers" were closer to the infield than usual.

[Gwhite]

I think "conventional knowledge" is to do what works best for you... There are a host of little details & variations you have to work out for yourself. Any coach that tells you " you must do it exactly this way" should be avoided. It's also why slavishly copying what you see on YouTube Olympic Finals is a waste of time.

[toddinjax]

I’ve a long way to go too agt.smith, and I have just discovered that I more frequently get a smooth, surprise shot release if I do not take up the first stage and sit lightly on stage 2 as I lower the gun down. I just make contact with the trigger as I raise and lower, and when I’m below the fuzzy bull I (try to) smoothly pull uninterrupted through both stages. I saw the gentleman who’s been coaching me recently and asked if this is something that will come back to bite me and he said “ no, if that works for you, do it”.

[robjob]

I don't recommend pulling through the first and second stages in one motion. The "bump" when you hit stage 2 is noticeable and may mess you up. If you want a "roll" trigger, take out stage 1 and add a lot of travel on stage 2. You will still need to move the trigger, but won't have the bump.

I personally prefer a crisp trigger with a very short first stage, just enough to let me know 2nd stage is comming up. Once I take up 1st stage, I start my shot process and pull through a very short second stage to release the shot.

[Agt. Smith]

I don't recommend pulling through the first and second stages in one motion. The "bump" when you hit stage 2 is noticeable and may mess you up. If you want a "roll" trigger, take out stage 1 and add a lot of travel on stage 2. You will still need to move the trigger, but won't have the bump.

I personally prefer a crisp trigger with a very short first stage, just enough to let me know 2nd stage is comming up. Once I take up 1st stage, I start my shot process and pull through a very short second stage to release the shot.

"Mess me up" - BINGO !

That was exactly what I was doing. I've set it up now (with help from Pardini USA) for a long first pull then a short final pull. Wow - what a difference.

I start pulling through the first stage just above the bull, by the time I get under the bull I'm right there for stage two. What a milestone for me. Groups are much tighter - freaky actually. This was my first target with this set-up. Not a big deal for most here, but I'm pleased so far.

[robjob]

Good stuff... we much each find what works best for us and I hope folks try...

[Gwhite]

From some coaching notes I put together several years ago:

One mistake that many shooters make is waiting for their hold to fully settle before they begin their final trigger squeeze. You want the shot to break when your wobble is at its minimum. If you wait for that before starting your final squeeze, the odds are very high that the shot will occur AFTER your hold has started to deteriorate. Unless you have an unusually long period of minimum wobble, you MUST start your squeeze BEFORE the pistol is fully settled.

This takes some courage to do, but once you get used to it, you will be amazed at how good the results can be. It also takes some practice, and if you don’t get a few shots that go off too soon, you aren’t trying hard enough! If you are in good shape, the “minimum” hold may last several seconds, giving you extra margin in timing. The one caution with this approach is that it is easy to fall into the trap of “rushing” the shot off to try to catch that “minimum wobble window”. It can take a lot of careful practice & training to speed up your trigger release without getting too aggressive with the trigger.

The images below show air pistol plots from a Noptel electronic trainer. The target pictures shows the path taken to the final shot location, and the other plots show the XY aiming point as a function of time. The first image shows a well executed shot. The pistol comes down into the aiming area, "bounces" vertically once, settles, and POP. The shot breaks within a couple seconds of when the shooter first settles into the aiming area, and there is no significant deflection after the shot (good follow through). The result is a 10, with very little wasted effort.

The second image shows what tends to happen when you hold too long. The downward approach occurs more than 7 seconds before the shot breaks, and is off the time scale of the XY plot. Between about -6¾ seconds and -5¼ seconds, the pistol is moderately well settled. A shot fired in that 1½ second period would be at least an 8, with a good chance of being a 9 or a 10. Instead, the shooter continues to hold as things begin to deteriorate. The pistol begins to oscillate more and more horizontally, and the shooter is eventually rewarded with a 5 and a tired arm.

Assuming the shooter settled a second or two before the XY plot starts, they took an extra five seconds to fire the bad shot. Over the course of a 60 shot match, that's a full 5 minutes of extra time spent holding the pistol up, which is a lot more wear & tear on your arm and eyes.

[toddinjax]

Honestly Mr.Gwhite, the amount of experience, knowledge, tips and advice you routinely share on this board is a wonderfully generous gift to every member. Perhaps many of us are so used to receiving these nuggets of knowledge that we forget to say thank you as often as we should. Your contributions are greatly appreciated and are read and re read with great attention.
Many many thanks to you sir.

[Gwhite]

You are very welcome!

A lot of my understanding has come from this forum, so it's nice to be able to give back in return. Besides, there's no point in having learned all this stuff just to take it to my grave. I love shooting, and want everyone to enjoy it as much as I do. It's always more fun when you shoot well.

[Agt. Smith]

Wow - great stuff. I know exactly what you mean by "courage". I suspect I haven't quite gotten there yet, but I am working on it.

It seems like every time I have a brainstorm - Gwhite has already been down that trail before. Thank you again !

[GoodEnuf]

What works for me, and has not been mentioned to this point in this thread:

-500 g trigger pull (~520g for a safety margin) split 375 - 380 first stage, remainder second stage.

-All travel on first stage; a "wall" is reached at the second stage

-Careful application of additional pressure at this wall; serious attention is paid to sight alignment simultaneous with increasing pressure, but with no additional trigger movement possible because of trigger set-up; at this point the muzzle has dropped to the aiming area beneath the bull.

-Here's where the practice/training is supposed to kick in.....very slight additional pressure is required to release the trigger; if the shot is not released by the time the hold opens up, within ~3 to 5 seconds, release pressure (unconsciously) and reset the shot routine.

-When the trigger releases, there is no motion, it just happens. This is the key to this set-up, no trigger finger motion on the second stage, just additional pressure. I don't know about the trigger adjustments possible with brands other than FWB; this works for my 65, 102, 34 and P8X.

I use the Lyman digital electronic trigger pull gauge to split the pull weight accurately between the stages. Set the break point to just over 500g; pull with the gauge until trigger motion stops. This is the "wall" indicating the second stage is reached. Set the pull distance at this point to maximize the efficiency of your trigger finger - so that at this point your finger pad is 90' to the barrel axis. Note the pressure (~375 g); continue increasing pressure on the trigger until it releases, which should be at the desired cumulative weight (~520g).

The gauge was purchased on Amazon several years ago and is still available (as are other similar products) for about $50.

You could use the static hanging weight to get the overall pull weight, then adjust the stages by trial and error and finally verify the accuracy again after you finish adjusting. It would work, but be almost impossible to duplicate precisely between pistols.

As an aside, I have read (but not verified by experience) that the second stage pull weight should not exceed the first stage weight, hence the 375g/145g weight split. Apparently, the mind will detect the excess weight at the wall and require conscious effort to apply that pressure, causing loss of concentration on sight alignment, etc. I have experimented with minimal second stage weight, but at my stage of training, I found I would inadvertently release the trigger if it is too sensitive.

TMI ??? !!!

Or, as some might astutely advise, "Wing it."

JE

[David M]

What works for me, and has not been mentioned to this point in this thread:

-500 g trigger pull (~520g for a safety margin) split 375 - 380 first stage, remainder second stage.

-All travel on first stage; a "wall" is reached at the second stage

What you have set up is a "Break like Glass" trigger.
Yes, a 150-200g on second stage and a very short second stage engagment is fine.
Remember the shorter the sear engagment, the more second stage weight is required.

But you need a little bit of Trigger after travel to the stop.
Usually .015-.020" is plenty (measured at centre of trigger).
Without the after travel if you accelerate the trigger break too fast then you will pull the shot off aim.
The little bit of after travel gives the pellet a chance to exit the barrel.

[brent375hh]

What works for me, and has not been mentioned to this point in this thread:

-500 g trigger pull (~520g for a safety margin) split 375 - 380 first stage, remainder second stage.

-All travel on first stage; a "wall" is reached at the second stage

What you have set up is a "Break like Glass" trigger.
Yes, a 150-200g on second stage and a very short second stage engagment is fine.
Remember the shorter the sear engagment, the more second stage weight is required.

But you need a little bit of Trigger after travel to the stop.
Usually .015-.020" is plenty (measured at centre of trigger).
Without the after travel if you accelerate the trigger break too fast then you will pull the shot off aim.
The little bit of after travel gives the pellet a chance to exit the barrel.

David,
Are you suggesting that the pellet has cleared the barrel between the sear release, but before the trigger contacts the over travel screw? I have my over travel as minimal as possible because I thought that I contacted the over travel while the pellet was still in the gun. Should I increase over travel?

[David M]

Not sure where the pellet may be, but the proof is in trying different over travel settings.
The trigger stop is there to reduce the trigger movement after sear release and resultant
trigger weight collapse.
I found out years ago that a very tight trigger stop will pull your poor trigger shots (accelerated)
well out of the group. For a R/H shooter usually low left.
Too much (on a mechanical trigger at least) will cause a trigger collapse feel and lots of finger movement.
For a R/H shooter slightly up and left.
The electronic triggers do not have a sear spring collapse on release so do not need a trigger stop.
The sweet spot appears to be about 1/2 tp 3/4 turn open on the stop screw.