AP with straight back trigger rather than pinned

[mhayford45]

Is there or was there ever a AP with a trigger mechanism that moves straight back verses the triggers that rotate on a pin. I find triggers that rotate on a pin to vector the force other than straight back.

[j danielsson]

pipskydd2_big.jpg (31.56 KiB) Viewed 7610 times

[Agt. Smith]

I don''t know the answer, but I've often wondered the same thing myself.

We use linear slides all the time. Seems it would be fairly easy to integrate a high resolution linear slide into one of these "electronic trigger" systems. This would essentially give you a zero angular force component (or zero pitch) on the trigger pull.

[spektr]

I dont think there is a difference in how the trigger is hinged. The moment you attempt to generate a force to overcome sear pressure, physics says there will be resultant and a movement.

[mhayford45]

The Morini picture posted looks like it is straight back but if you look at the exploded diagram it is pinned and rotates.

Yes there is movement as the sear lets off. this movement generates a vector force that is not straight back depending on where the trigger is positioned.

[Gwhite]

In order to have a tilted grip & low bore line, almost all competition air pistols position the hand so the trigger finger is far from horizontal anyway. The trigger force will almost always have an upward component. I don't think I've ever seen anyone fret about it... As long as you are consistent, it shouldn't be a big deal.

[stephen_maly]

The only AP I know of with an attempted straight-back-pull trigger was the FWB-80. It was hinged on two pivots, and the feel was almost perfectly straight to the rear. This systems in gone with the wind. That apparent "improvement" did not work sufficiently well to keep it in use on subsequent models.

The only other pistol with a nearly straight back pull is the Izh-35M. On it, the pivot is at the top of the action, so the rotational aspect is not as apparent.

You must make up for such design problems with deliberate training and you build up your skill until you pull the gun off course exactly the same amout each time.

[David M]

Is there or was there ever a AP with a trigger mechanism that moves straight back verses the triggers that rotate on a pin. I find triggers that rotate on a pin to vector the force other than straight back.

What a load of rubbish.....
Yes, there is angular movement at release but only over the sear trigger point distance.
It is so small as to be discounted.
If the trigger shoe is 1" from the pivot pin and the trigger point (2nd stage travel) is 0.005" ( which is a rolloff trigger, worst case)
the angular change is 16 sec or 1/4 degree. A finer set sear is even less.
The difference between angular and linear is a lift of 0.00013", or 2/3rds of 3/5ths of 5/8th of sweet FA.
Just go and shoot....worry about something else.

[mhayford45]

I have owned a few APs. My first was a Pardini. It was a constant struggle with the grip and trigger position trying to get it into as neutral a position as possible. I had to forced my wrist over so far that on shot release my hand +wrist would bounce up under the tension and the trigger position was a strain on my trigger finger. My second was a Steyr Evo 10E. The same problems. There was not enough adjustment to fit me. Then I tried a Walther LP500 at WAG a few seasons back. There was enough adjustment in the 3D grip and trigger placement to eliminate most of the issues. Sold the others. I however, still see a little upward movement on shot release due to upward trigger pressure with a relaxed grip. This I compensate for with more grip pressure and holding that through the shot release. This all would disappear with a straight back trigger.... i think. Too bad there is not a US made Olympic class AP. A picture is attached showing my setup.

[David M]

Looking at the grip, it appears that you are using the least amount of rake with grip tilt.
This is forcing your trigger finger up into the trigger bar.
There is a big difference between American and European pistols is the grip angles.
American pistols tend to have a upright grip angle, good example is Colt 1911.
European pistols have a lot more rake angle with the extreme being a Free pistol.
I think you need a custom grip with less rake angle. This will raise the pistol in your
hand with a higher barrel line and lower the trigger finger position to more inline.
Try an experiment with a spacer of 3-5mm between pistol and grip to lift the pistol.
It may not fit the box, but will show you if the change will work.

[Gwhite]

I have owned a few APs. My first was a Pardini. It was a constant struggle with the grip and trigger position trying to get it into as neutral a position as possible. I had to forced my wrist over so far that on shot release my hand +wrist would bounce up under the tension and the trigger position was a strain on my trigger finger. My second was a Steyr Evo 10E. The same problems. There was not enough adjustment to fit me. Then I tried a Walther LP500 at WAG a few seasons back. There was enough adjustment in the 3D grip and trigger placement to eliminate most of the issues. Sold the others. I however, still see a little upward movement on shot release due to upward trigger pressure with a relaxed grip. This I compensate for with more grip pressure and holding that through the shot release. This all would disappear with a straight back trigger.... i think. Too bad there is not a US made Olympic class AP. A picture is attached showing my setup.

If you look at the photo, your trigger finger is at a very different angle from the rest of your fingers. I know you are hung up on trying to pull straight back, but you might find it a lot more natural to move your trigger down on the rod so you aren't pulling at an angle compared with your other fingers. I've never seen anyone set up their trigger so their fingers are splayed that far apart.

[Agt. Smith]

If you look at the photo, your trigger finger is at a very different angle from the rest of your fingers. I know you are hung up on trying to pull straight back, but you might find it a lot more natural to move your trigger down on the rod so you aren't pulling at an angle compared with your other fingers. I've never seen anyone set up their trigger so their fingers are splayed that far apart.

This is exactly what I had to do with the K12. Lowered, extended, and slightly canted the trigger shoe. Huge difference in aligning the fingers more naturally (for me anyway).

The stock L K12 grip just didn't work for me either - the XL Rink really changed the entire dynamic. It yielded a different more comfortable rake, more natural wrist angle, and a better fitting (& more adjustable) shelf. Now I can let the pistol basically 'sit' in my hand while exerting almost zero pressure anywhere. Holding seems to be more stable and infinitely less stressful.

Good luck !

[mhayford45]

Thank you all for the feedback. I will try a few changes and gather some empirical data and update this thread for others to benefit from.

[brent375hh]

My 1911s trigger slides straight back. My airguns pivot.
If I jerk the trigger, I get a 7 or 8 in the same place, and it's not in an upward direction. There are simply too many good engineers designing air pistols. I don't really think there is a substantial improvement coming. A 594 was shot with a design that goes back more than two decades, and is still winning the gold today.

If the muzzle lifts when you dry fire, you most likely are adding grip pressure at the moment you're giving the trigger it's final press.

[Gwhite]

My 1911s trigger slides straight back. My airguns pivot.
If I jerk the trigger, I get a 7 or 8 in the same place, and it's not in an upward direction. There are simply too many good engineers designing air pistols. I don't really think there is a substantial improvement coming. A 594 was shot with a design that goes back more than two decades, and is still winning the gold today.

If the muzzle lifts when you dry fire, you most likely are adding grip pressure at the moment you're giving the trigger it's final press.

What he said...

[Agt. Smith]

..... I don't really think there is a substantial improvement coming........

That could be.

I know what you mean about old designs - my grandfather caught all the biggest brook trout with just an old long piece of bamboo.

Interesting that several patents have come out in 2020/2021 with new "linear trigger" designs. Most are based on a novel mechanical "rolling element", so there's no need for active electronics unless you really wanted it. Most interesting is Geissele & Robinson 2020 (US 2020/0088486) https://www.freepatentsonline.com/20200088486.pdf I think Fig. 19 shows the basic principle nicely.

[william]

How many 580+ shooters here are being held back from 590s by their old-fashioned pivoting trigger?

How many 570+ shooters held back from 580s...?

How many 560+ shooters held back from 570s...?

I can just imagine the likes of diDonna, Nestruev, Dumoulin, Kostevych saying to themselves, "Gee, if only my trigger didn't have that damnable pivot!"

[mhayford45]

Well, I am a senior trying to remain competitive. I am looking for any improvement I can get and typically shoot 550s and occasional 560s with AP. At Camp Perry last year when WAG was moved to Perry due to covid, I finished as the Top Senior in the event. At this time in my life I am not opposed to buying points.

[brent375hh]

Well, I am a senior trying to remain competitive. I am looking for any improvement I can get and typically shoot 550s and occasional 560s with AP. At Camp Perry last year when WAG was moved to Perry due to covid, I finished as the Top Senior in the event. At this time in my life I am not opposed to buying points.

Congratulations on your last years scores. I too am not opposed to buying points at this stage of life, I just haven't figured out what to buy that helps more than positive training.
I think most everyone on here is a senior or close to it.
Good luck this year if you attend.

[william]

Well, I am a senior trying to remain competitive. I am looking for any improvement I can get and typically shoot 550s and occasional 560s with AP. At Camp Perry last year when WAG was moved to Perry due to covid, I finished as the Top Senior in the event. At this time in my life I am not opposed to buying points.

As a guy in his mid 70s with 6 CAGP medals, all I can say is if I were inclined to be buying points at this stage of life, that aspect of my trigger is probably the last place I'd look. Compared to something as simple (and cheap) as having the correct barrel weight at the correct distance from my hand, the difference between a top quality pivoted trigger - they HAVE had a lot of years to perfect them - and a sliding one has to be pretty insignificant.

However, I do concede the power of the placebo effect.