What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47903.0
Big picture on lead-free?
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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pilkguns
the big picture...... hmmmm....
go into the closet, close your eyes, turn off the lights, open your eyes, yep , you can see all the target ammo that is available
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47904.47903
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47904.47903
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Jeff
Re: Big picture on lead-free?
Check the thread below. Prometheus' Dynamic lead-free ammo has gotten at least one positive review I found in my searches.
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47905.47903
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47905.47903
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akihmsa
Re: Big picture on lead-free? is HYPE
I have yet to see any study done on lead poisoning and airgun shooting indoors or out. There are studies on powdered guns fired indoors. These are entirely inappropriate to be used in conjunction with air guns, unless you happen to be shooting on a range that uses powder guns. What I have seen is a bunch of histeria posted on save-the-earth-from-man type of web sites. I wouldn't recommend eating your pellets (even the good brands :~) and you should follow basic lead handling proceedures. Leading of airgun barrels especially target velocity ones is virtually unheard of. Shooting .22 rf guns in a poorly ventilated area with the old 1/4 steel angled backstops that were prevelant 30 to 50 years ago in old school buildings and such is simply not comparable to shooting your target air pistol into a well constructed pellet trap.
If you are truly concerned about your blood lead level get it tested. : What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47911.47903
If you are truly concerned about your blood lead level get it tested. : What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47911.47903
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bruce
Re: Big picture on lead-free? BS!
People use the L word to scare others on guns.
Wanna be lead free Mr Environmentalist? We'll take the batt'ry right out of your car!
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47920.47903
Wanna be lead free Mr Environmentalist? We'll take the batt'ry right out of your car!
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47920.47903
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Don
Re: the big picture...... hmmmm....
: go into the closet, close your eyes, turn off the lights, open your eyes, yep , you can see all the target ammo that is available
: : What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
Right on. Don't worry about it.
.47922.47904
: : What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
Right on. Don't worry about it.
.47922.47904
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fred
Stop and Think ..... (long)
For the past several days, there have been a lot of very worried postings about lead contamination, and the only concrete evidence of a problem that has been cited, is a New York Times story about an article in the New England Journal of Medicine.
First, as someone pointed out below, the NEJM has a history of publishing anti-gun "research." And the NYT has a history of publicizing anti-gun material. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that the "study" is factually correct.
But think about it: as reported we have an article about 4 teenage girls having asymptomatic elevated blood lead levels. How elevated? Compared to what standard? If the girls were asymptomatic, what were the negative consequences? Why were only 4 people studied? Why were there no adults? Where were the control subjects from the same shooting range, and from the girls' environments outside the range? To what other possible contaminating conditions had the 4 been exposed?
The list of questions could go on and on, but I think it is sufficiently clear that the "research" and NYT report have nothing to do with science, and everything to do with an agenda. I believe it was no accident that the focus was on teenagers, and not adults, and that the Times mentioned college shooters.
To paraphrase my take on the article, it says: "They (pro-gunners) are poisoning our best and brightest kids." Forgive me if I'm not panicked about this.
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
frbauer-at-msn.com.47927.47903
First, as someone pointed out below, the NEJM has a history of publishing anti-gun "research." And the NYT has a history of publicizing anti-gun material. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that the "study" is factually correct.
But think about it: as reported we have an article about 4 teenage girls having asymptomatic elevated blood lead levels. How elevated? Compared to what standard? If the girls were asymptomatic, what were the negative consequences? Why were only 4 people studied? Why were there no adults? Where were the control subjects from the same shooting range, and from the girls' environments outside the range? To what other possible contaminating conditions had the 4 been exposed?
The list of questions could go on and on, but I think it is sufficiently clear that the "research" and NYT report have nothing to do with science, and everything to do with an agenda. I believe it was no accident that the focus was on teenagers, and not adults, and that the Times mentioned college shooters.
To paraphrase my take on the article, it says: "They (pro-gunners) are poisoning our best and brightest kids." Forgive me if I'm not panicked about this.
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
frbauer-at-msn.com.47927.47903
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Claudio
LEAD LEVELS
I have had my lead levels checked for years and it has always been normal. The only time that it was slightly high was in 1990 and 1991. Those years I shot every kind of rifle, pistol and shotgun and mostly ISSF (UIT then). In the winter I shot indoors three or four times a week and shot air pistol at home. The most lead was from action shooting indoors because we walked down range after to pick up brass and patch. I also worked as an electronic technician all day soldering with lead (without any filtration).
My lead levels were only slightly higher than normal but my doctor was not concerned because he knew where it came from. Since I was doing too much shooting and soldering, I stopped action shooting indoors and only shot it outdoors.
My lead levels went down to almost normal
at that time. Once I slowed down just a little more, it went to normal. If I didn't solder at work with lead, it would have been a lot better but I needed the job. :-)
You must always use proper washing of hands, face and clothes and never eat in the actual range or
with lead dust hands. If you shoot certain .22 ammo or centerfire ammo, depending on the ammo or range, the particles in your nose is from powder residue not lead.
Everyone is different and reacts differently to lead but a lot of shooters have a mental fear of lead. This fear induces false feelings of illness and exaggerates the dangers of lead in shooting sports. Many articles, companies and Government rely on those fears, especially the fear of the general public, to impose their biased views, restrictions or total bans.
I also have four teenage daughters that shoot and they never felt ill at any time. All of our lead levels to this day are normal.
I never got sick and as you see never died.
incrocci-at-shaw.ca.47928.47903
My lead levels were only slightly higher than normal but my doctor was not concerned because he knew where it came from. Since I was doing too much shooting and soldering, I stopped action shooting indoors and only shot it outdoors.
My lead levels went down to almost normal
at that time. Once I slowed down just a little more, it went to normal. If I didn't solder at work with lead, it would have been a lot better but I needed the job. :-)
You must always use proper washing of hands, face and clothes and never eat in the actual range or
with lead dust hands. If you shoot certain .22 ammo or centerfire ammo, depending on the ammo or range, the particles in your nose is from powder residue not lead.
Everyone is different and reacts differently to lead but a lot of shooters have a mental fear of lead. This fear induces false feelings of illness and exaggerates the dangers of lead in shooting sports. Many articles, companies and Government rely on those fears, especially the fear of the general public, to impose their biased views, restrictions or total bans.
I also have four teenage daughters that shoot and they never felt ill at any time. All of our lead levels to this day are normal.
I never got sick and as you see never died.
incrocci-at-shaw.ca.47928.47903
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Jim Morris
Re: Big picture on lead-free - EU Regs
Here is the problem all our Friends in Europe are having.
The EU is in a big push to remove all heavy metals from manufacturing. This not only means you cannot use things like lead in your product, but not to make it eaither.
I have been involved with removing lead, cadmium and Hex Chrome from our products to comply. I cannot remember the exact date the regulation nor do I know if there is an exemption for ammo.
We have to watch some of these regulations which appear harmless, as they may impact shooting sports. Firecodes have a way of doing this too.
Jim
jmorris_3-at-yahoo.com.47938.47903
The EU is in a big push to remove all heavy metals from manufacturing. This not only means you cannot use things like lead in your product, but not to make it eaither.
I have been involved with removing lead, cadmium and Hex Chrome from our products to comply. I cannot remember the exact date the regulation nor do I know if there is an exemption for ammo.
We have to watch some of these regulations which appear harmless, as they may impact shooting sports. Firecodes have a way of doing this too.
Jim
jmorris_3-at-yahoo.com.47938.47903
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Craig E.
Data from H&N, Vogel, JSB etc. ????
: What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
Would be interested to hear from the mfgs. Certainly, the exposure levels would be astronomical during the mfg. process and the companies will have a stake in the debate. Does any mfg. want to comment or offer info? In the meantime, I will continue to shoot what's out there and take the sensible approach to traps and clean-up for AP. Craig
alance2002-at-yahoo.com.47942.47903
Would be interested to hear from the mfgs. Certainly, the exposure levels would be astronomical during the mfg. process and the companies will have a stake in the debate. Does any mfg. want to comment or offer info? In the meantime, I will continue to shoot what's out there and take the sensible approach to traps and clean-up for AP. Craig
alance2002-at-yahoo.com.47942.47903
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akihmsa
Re: Stop and Think ..... (long) Right On Fred!
When you ask for the actual study concerning airguns you find there aren't any! Many physicians groups have an anti gun agenda. They have wanted a ban on a Daisy in the home for a long time. Anyone is well advised to uderstand the safe handling of lead. Hysteria seldom leads to good decisions. The enviros have taken Hysteria about as far as they can go with it as a tool for changing peoples behavior. The backlash has already begun on many fronts with people starting to ask "What makes common sense?"
: For the past several days, there have been a lot of very worried postings about lead contamination, and the only concrete evidence of a problem that has been cited, is a New York Times story about an article in the New England Journal of Medicine.
: First, as someone pointed out below, the NEJM has a history of publishing anti-gun "research." And the NYT has a history of publicizing anti-gun material. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that the "study" is factually correct.
: But think about it: as reported we have an article about 4 teenage girls having asymptomatic elevated blood lead levels. How elevated? Compared to what standard? If the girls were asymptomatic, what were the negative consequences? Why were only 4 people studied? Why were there no adults? Where were the control subjects from the same shooting range, and from the girls' environments outside the range? To what other possible contaminating conditions had the 4 been exposed?
: The list of questions could go on and on, but I think it is sufficiently clear that the "research" and NYT report have nothing to do with science, and everything to do with an agenda. I believe it was no accident that the focus was on teenagers, and not adults, and that the Times mentioned college shooters.
: To paraphrase my take on the article, it says: "They (pro-gunners) are poisoning our best and brightest kids." Forgive me if I'm not panicked about this.
:
: : What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47947.47927
: For the past several days, there have been a lot of very worried postings about lead contamination, and the only concrete evidence of a problem that has been cited, is a New York Times story about an article in the New England Journal of Medicine.
: First, as someone pointed out below, the NEJM has a history of publishing anti-gun "research." And the NYT has a history of publicizing anti-gun material. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that the "study" is factually correct.
: But think about it: as reported we have an article about 4 teenage girls having asymptomatic elevated blood lead levels. How elevated? Compared to what standard? If the girls were asymptomatic, what were the negative consequences? Why were only 4 people studied? Why were there no adults? Where were the control subjects from the same shooting range, and from the girls' environments outside the range? To what other possible contaminating conditions had the 4 been exposed?
: The list of questions could go on and on, but I think it is sufficiently clear that the "research" and NYT report have nothing to do with science, and everything to do with an agenda. I believe it was no accident that the focus was on teenagers, and not adults, and that the Times mentioned college shooters.
: To paraphrase my take on the article, it says: "They (pro-gunners) are poisoning our best and brightest kids." Forgive me if I'm not panicked about this.
:
: : What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters? Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
.47947.47927
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Jeff
That WAS really my only question..
> What's the big picture on availability of lead-free ammo for target shooters?
>Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
My questions exactly. I feel like i've sparked a panic here (more talk about being terrified the anti-gun lobby is on the warpath than the actual questoin.) I'm not anti-gun and I'm not a congressman, so everyone can relax. Just wanted an un-biased answer.
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47957.47911
>Is the currently available stuff good enough for precision shooting? Where are the bargains?
My questions exactly. I feel like i've sparked a panic here (more talk about being terrified the anti-gun lobby is on the warpath than the actual questoin.) I'm not anti-gun and I'm not a congressman, so everyone can relax. Just wanted an un-biased answer.
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47957.47911
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Jeff
Re: the big picture...... hmmmm....
: go into the closet, close your eyes, turn off the lights, open your eyes, yep , you can see all the target ammo that is available
Or open your eyes and go to
http://jgairguns.tripod.com/airgunammo/id5.html
or Daisy's lead-free ammo at:
http://store.bbgunfunstore.com/dalefrpope21.html
Also an interesting article on "green ammo" and army from 2000:
"The Department of the Army announced last March that it would begin issuing U.S. troops "lead-free" bullets as part of a comprehensive program to move to "green ammunition" in the 21st century. The new M-16, 5.56mm, copper-jacketed bullets are the brainchild of the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center in Picatinny Arsenal, N.J."
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47958.47904
Or open your eyes and go to
http://jgairguns.tripod.com/airgunammo/id5.html
or Daisy's lead-free ammo at:
http://store.bbgunfunstore.com/dalefrpope21.html
Also an interesting article on "green ammo" and army from 2000:
"The Department of the Army announced last March that it would begin issuing U.S. troops "lead-free" bullets as part of a comprehensive program to move to "green ammunition" in the 21st century. The new M-16, 5.56mm, copper-jacketed bullets are the brainchild of the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center in Picatinny Arsenal, N.J."
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47958.47904
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akihmsa
Re: the big picture...... hmmmm....
Lets see, worry over lead and being green while using depleted uranium armor defeating rounds. I have little concern over my armed forces using lead or DU rounds, I want them to win quickly whereever they go. Jeff I am starting to wonder if you have green leaves on your arms ;~) Your constant turning to powdered power ammo while seeking answers for air guns is getting suspect. They are apples and oranges. In your case you would be better off with an AIR Soft gun and forget about it, just don't let the cat eat them or it'll get plugged up ;~) : go into the closet, close your eyes, turn off the lights, open your eyes, yep , you can see all the target ammo that is available
: Or open your eyes and go to
: http://jgairguns.tripod.com/airgunammo/id5.html
: or Daisy's lead-free ammo at:
: http://store.bbgunfunstore.com/dalefrpope21.html
:
: Also an interesting article on "green ammo" and army from 2000:
: "The Department of the Army announced last March that it would begin issuing U.S. troops "lead-free" bullets as part of a comprehensive program to move to "green ammunition" in the 21st century. The new M-16, 5.56mm, copper-jacketed bullets are the brainchild of the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center in Picatinny Arsenal, N.J."
.47963.47958
: Or open your eyes and go to
: http://jgairguns.tripod.com/airgunammo/id5.html
: or Daisy's lead-free ammo at:
: http://store.bbgunfunstore.com/dalefrpope21.html
:
: Also an interesting article on "green ammo" and army from 2000:
: "The Department of the Army announced last March that it would begin issuing U.S. troops "lead-free" bullets as part of a comprehensive program to move to "green ammunition" in the 21st century. The new M-16, 5.56mm, copper-jacketed bullets are the brainchild of the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center in Picatinny Arsenal, N.J."
.47963.47958
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Jeff
Good lord, man
: Jeff I am starting to wonder if you have green leaves on your arms ;~) Your constant turning to powdered power ammo while seeking answers for air guns is getting suspect.
Good God, man-- the paranoia I'm hitting from people trying to twist my "might this be unhealthy since it involves lead" question in their pet phobia (anti-gun activists are at the gates!) is getting out of hand.
I'm sorry I asked the question-- nobody seems to be able to answer without getting into a political rant (and now even slyly implying accusations?) I'vve steer clear of this site and avoid the witch hunt. I found some non-lead pellets (and apparently lead IS in issue in a similar arena, although I apparently can't mention that for fear of being branded!), so I've got my answer. Bye, guys.
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47966.47963
Good God, man-- the paranoia I'm hitting from people trying to twist my "might this be unhealthy since it involves lead" question in their pet phobia (anti-gun activists are at the gates!) is getting out of hand.
I'm sorry I asked the question-- nobody seems to be able to answer without getting into a political rant (and now even slyly implying accusations?) I'vve steer clear of this site and avoid the witch hunt. I found some non-lead pellets (and apparently lead IS in issue in a similar arena, although I apparently can't mention that for fear of being branded!), so I've got my answer. Bye, guys.
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47966.47963
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akihmsa
Re: Good lord, man
It goes with the territory Jeff. Anti gunners will use any tactic they think might deter anyone from taking up shooting including hysteria over safety. There are no credible studies on lead and airguns. No one here would suggest that you put the pellet trap over where you sleep at night, nor is the table where you eat a good place either. AIR Soft is a viable alternative given your concerns. It isn't so much that you asked a question that has bothered folks but rather that the sources you quote are from known anti-type groups. Most of us have seen this junk science enough to know its worth.
Hugs and kisses from the target talk board ;~) The Good Lord gave most of us good sense. : Jeff I am starting to wonder if you have green leaves on your arms ;~) Your constant turning to powdered power ammo while seeking answers for air guns is getting suspect.
: Good God, man-- the paranoia I'm hitting from people trying to twist my "might this be unhealthy since it involves lead" question in their pet phobia (anti-gun activists are at the gates!) is getting out of hand.
: I'm sorry I asked the question-- nobody seems to be able to answer without getting into a political rant (and now even slyly implying accusations?) I'vve steer clear of this site and avoid the witch hunt. I found some non-lead pellets (and apparently lead IS in issue in a similar arena, although I apparently can't mention that for fear of being branded!), so I've got my answer. Bye, guys.
.47967.47966
Hugs and kisses from the target talk board ;~) The Good Lord gave most of us good sense. : Jeff I am starting to wonder if you have green leaves on your arms ;~) Your constant turning to powdered power ammo while seeking answers for air guns is getting suspect.
: Good God, man-- the paranoia I'm hitting from people trying to twist my "might this be unhealthy since it involves lead" question in their pet phobia (anti-gun activists are at the gates!) is getting out of hand.
: I'm sorry I asked the question-- nobody seems to be able to answer without getting into a political rant (and now even slyly implying accusations?) I'vve steer clear of this site and avoid the witch hunt. I found some non-lead pellets (and apparently lead IS in issue in a similar arena, although I apparently can't mention that for fear of being branded!), so I've got my answer. Bye, guys.
.47967.47966
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Jeff
Re: Good lord, man
>> It goes with the territory Jeff. Anti gunners will use any
I kinda doubt there's a lot of antigunners on on boards like this!
>> There are no credible studies on lead and airguns.
Well, that was my question: was there or wasn't there. FINALLY a simple answer, without any bias, anger or implied accusation.
>> No one here would suggest that you put the pellet trap over where you sleep at night
Nor breathe your car's exhaust (but at least we know not to leave it running in the garage and the danger inherent because problems have been well studied and reported. We're ALLOWED to ask the question without people claiming we're terrified of our cars or a tool of the anticar lobbyists!)
>> AIR Soft is a viable alternative given your concerns.
Please stop saying that- it feels like a veiled insult (in any case, I compete with an IZH-46M and was just wondering if anyone had experience with the lead-free pellets. Who knew it was such a loaded question?)
>> It isn't so much that you asked a question that has bothered folks but rather that the sources you quote are from known anti-type groups.
That's news to me-- I was just doing Google searches and reporting what I found.
: Hugs and kisses from the target talk board ;~)
Thanks, I appreciate that. Getting worried for a while that no one was capable of even considering an issue unless it match their political agenda!
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47969.47967
I kinda doubt there's a lot of antigunners on on boards like this!
>> There are no credible studies on lead and airguns.
Well, that was my question: was there or wasn't there. FINALLY a simple answer, without any bias, anger or implied accusation.
>> No one here would suggest that you put the pellet trap over where you sleep at night
Nor breathe your car's exhaust (but at least we know not to leave it running in the garage and the danger inherent because problems have been well studied and reported. We're ALLOWED to ask the question without people claiming we're terrified of our cars or a tool of the anticar lobbyists!)
>> AIR Soft is a viable alternative given your concerns.
Please stop saying that- it feels like a veiled insult (in any case, I compete with an IZH-46M and was just wondering if anyone had experience with the lead-free pellets. Who knew it was such a loaded question?)
>> It isn't so much that you asked a question that has bothered folks but rather that the sources you quote are from known anti-type groups.
That's news to me-- I was just doing Google searches and reporting what I found.
: Hugs and kisses from the target talk board ;~)
Thanks, I appreciate that. Getting worried for a while that no one was capable of even considering an issue unless it match their political agenda!
jwolverton-at-hotmail.com.47969.47967
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Barry
Re: Big picture on lead-free - EU Regs
Jim, let me guess; you're involved in electronics design/assembly processes? I'm in the same boat and I believe the new standards(if adopted) are supposed to be in force by June 2006. It will apply to both new mfg. processes and also define rules for the disposal of old products containing these metals. Since the rest of the world (except for us Americans) seems to follow EU and EN standards, even the far east will be following the same lead I'm told.
Barry
: Here is the problem all our Friends in Europe are having.
: The EU is in a big push to remove all heavy metals from manufacturing. This not only means you cannot use things like lead in your product, but not to make it eaither.
: I have been involved with removing lead, cadmium and Hex Chrome from our products to comply. I cannot remember the exact date the regulation nor do I know if there is an exemption for ammo.
: We have to watch some of these regulations which appear harmless, as they may impact shooting sports. Firecodes have a way of doing this too.
: Jim
.47971.47938
Barry
: Here is the problem all our Friends in Europe are having.
: The EU is in a big push to remove all heavy metals from manufacturing. This not only means you cannot use things like lead in your product, but not to make it eaither.
: I have been involved with removing lead, cadmium and Hex Chrome from our products to comply. I cannot remember the exact date the regulation nor do I know if there is an exemption for ammo.
: We have to watch some of these regulations which appear harmless, as they may impact shooting sports. Firecodes have a way of doing this too.
: Jim
.47971.47938
-
Mark.
Re: Stop and Think ..... (long)
The "hysteria" that AKIHMSA refers to is an unfortunate reality for the shooting community. If anybody doesn't believe me, then perhaps you'd like to sign the quarter million dollar cheque to cover the new HEPA air filtration and HVAC system our club has been forced to install?
The worst part of it all is that study after study say the primary method of lead ingestion for shooters is through CONTACT, not inhalation. Rather than a massive air handler, our club needed a hand-wash station at the door to the range. But that's the result of hysteria. Unfortunately we can't get an indoor range approved in our jurisdiction unless it has a HEPA filtration system.
Mark.
.48005.47927
The worst part of it all is that study after study say the primary method of lead ingestion for shooters is through CONTACT, not inhalation. Rather than a massive air handler, our club needed a hand-wash station at the door to the range. But that's the result of hysteria. Unfortunately we can't get an indoor range approved in our jurisdiction unless it has a HEPA filtration system.
Mark.
.48005.47927