Compressed Air vs CO2 Air Pistols...?

[Claudio]

Why was there a change to compressed air pistols? Are they more reliable or consistent than CO2? If you had two identical Manufactured Air Pistols but one CA and the other CO2 and shot by the same person, what advantage would one have over the other? Or did CA come out because CO2 was not legal in some countries?
I need this info in making a choice on a purchase of a new or used air pistol.
Anyone know the real story or articles that prove or answer this question?


incrocci-at-shaw.ca.47001.0

[Bill Clarke]

http://home.hiwaay.net/~ispellan/Co2.html
http://www.pilkguns.com/coach/co2.htm
Both of these sites have information you may find useful.
Personally, I use Co2 for target shooting. I find it easy, clean, and very predictable. It is a self-regulating gas produced from a liquid. Hence, fancy pressure regulators are not used.
I also think it is somewhat safer - 900 psi vs 200 bar.
airgun-at-despammed.com.47002.47001

[Jay V]

: Why was there a change to compressed air pistols? Are they more reliable or consistent than CO2? If you had two identical Manufactured Air Pistols but one CA and the other CO2 and shot by the same person, what advantage would one have over the other? Or did CA come out because CO2 was not legal in some countries?

CO2 does weigh more than CA, and makes the weight and balance of the gun change more during the course of a match. With CO2 you don't have any way to tell how much is left in the cylinder, except taking it out and weighing it - you can use a gauge on CA cylinders. You need to chill a CO2 cylinder to get a full charge (difficult at the range), CA can be charged anytime with a tank or pump. Temperature changes effect CO2, and the gun's velocity, more than with CA.
That said, CO2 isn't bad. For some it is easier and cheaper to get a tank, and get it filled. If you have 2 cylinders it is not a big deal to just start a match with a full cylinder and check/chill/charge the other when you get home. The weight change is not a big deal for most of us, and many top score have been fired with CO2 guns.
Our club just bought a used and reconditioned Pardini K-60 CO2 air pistol from Pilkington for about $400. I find it to be a very nice match-quality air pistol for that price. When working with a CO2 gun, I personally prefer the type of gun that has a removable CO2 cylinder (like the Pardini) to guns that store the CO2 internally. Thay way you can chill and weigh the cylinder, or have an extra cylinder, to ensure you have a full charge.

Jay Vergenz
IL
www.aiac-airguns.org
jverg-at-att.net.47004.47001

[Craig E.]

All of the above apply and there is a tech article at the Airguns Only site by Raymac that offers some additional insight. BTW, I shoot a used LP1 CO2 (formerly belonging to a Canadian Nat'l shooter in the 570-580 category)and find it both easy to deal with and very inexpensive. Perhaps at the next level(?) it may make a difference for international travel etc. but for the most of us, CO2 will do just fine. IMHO. Craig
: Anyone know the real story or articles that prove or answer this question?
:

alance2002-at-yahoo.com.47005.47001

[Bill Abernethy]

I would never have gone from CO2 to compressed air except for the fact that I shoot all winter (and I live in Michigan, where it gets very cold)and CO2 is much more sensitive to temp change. There are a lot of fine CO2 guns out there at bargain prices. If you live in a mild climate, or shoot only indoors, it might be the way to go.
One other thing: I don't know where you live, but someone once told me that European CO2 contains more impurities than in the US and that this is another reason compressed air is preferred. Don't know if there's any truth to that, though.
Bill Abernethy
bill-at-wccnet.org.47008.47001

[geo. anderson]

:You need to chill a CO2 cylinder to get a full charge (difficult at the range)
Actually, not. With a removeable cylinder anyway. Just put a little shot of CO2 into the cylinder and vent it out. The evaporation cools the cylinder quite nicely. And the CO2 is so cheap that the cost of the "wasted" gas is minimal.
george-at-willowlane.net.47009.47004

[Jay V]

: :You need to chill a CO2 cylinder to get a full charge (difficult at the range)
: Actually, not. With a removeable cylinder anyway. Just put a little shot of CO2 into the cylinder and vent it out. The evaporation cools the cylinder quite nicely. And the CO2 is so cheap that the cost of the "wasted" gas is minimal.

That is true. You can chill it by releasing CO2, but it can be a pain to do on some types of guns/cylinders. It requires quite a bit of CO2 dumping to get it chilled down to the right temp in my opinion, and in my area CO2 is not exactly "cheap" - so I prefer the freezer.

Jay

jverg-at-att.net.47012.47009

[Wee Hooker]

To get technical. you don't have to chill or vent to fill a cyl. Doing so is only necessary if you want to get a full cyl . Filling at room temp will still give you a 2/3fill - 150 consistant shots in my experience. In either case, it's easy to have a spare handy and sure beats the snot out of sweating over a hand pump between matchs.
As for economy, here in the NE a $14 fill of Co2 will get you about 160,000 shots worth of this very harmless gas. Nuff said.

: : :You need to chill a CO2 cylinder to get a full charge (difficult at the range)
: : Actually, not. With a removeable cylinder anyway. Just put a little shot of CO2 into the cylinder and vent it out. The evaporation cools the cylinder quite nicely. And the CO2 is so cheap that the cost of the "wasted" gas is minimal.
:
: That is true. You can chill it by releasing CO2, but it can be a pain to do on some types of guns/cylinders. It requires quite a bit of CO2 dumping to get it chilled down to the right temp in my opinion, and in my area CO2 is not exactly "cheap" - so I prefer the freezer.
:
: Jay

.47020.47012

[TJ]

How much is a co2 storage tank?
: To get technical. you don't have to chill or vent to fill a cyl. Doing so is only necessary if you want to get a full cyl . Filling at room temp will still give you a 2/3fill - 150 consistant shots in my experience. In either case, it's easy to have a spare handy and sure beats the snot out of sweating over a hand pump between matchs.
: As for economy, here in the NE a $14 fill of Co2 will get you about 160,000 shots worth of this very harmless gas. Nuff said.

shootingsports-at-ev1.net.47022.47020

[TJ]

What do you mean it is self-regulating? Dont the guns have regulators? If not then every shot will have lower energy/trajectory.
: Personally, I use Co2 for target shooting. I find it easy, clean, and very predictable. It is a self-regulating gas produced from a liquid. Hence, fancy pressure regulators are not used.
: I also think it is somewhat safer - 900 psi vs 200 bar.

shootingsports-at-ev1.net.47023.47002

[Larry]

Hi Claudio -

Nothing wrong with CO2. Air does have some advantages in not being temperature sensitive, not having liquid sloshing around in the calendar, being easier to travel with... mostly things that can be easily over come or not affecting us. The only thing that I found that I didn't like about CO2 was the gas cloud when the shot was fired. I could see the CO2 discharge in the guns that I tried, but not in the PCP guns.

If you are going to get a new gun, get a PCP. They have triggers, recoil reducers, and compensators that are usually superior to the older CO2 guns. For a used gun, CO2 guns are a real bargain. You can get Co2 from soft drink and fire extinguisher shops fairly cheaply. I'm not sure what dive shop policy is up in your neck of the West, but getting one to fill a tank for someone without a diver training card can be a problem down here sometimes.
: Why was there a change to compressed air pistols? Are they more reliable or consistent than CO2? If you had two identical Manufactured Air Pistols but one CA and the other CO2 and shot by the same person, what advantage would one have over the other? Or did CA come out because CO2 was not legal in some countries?
: I need this info in making a choice on a purchase of a new or used air pistol.
: Anyone know the real story or articles that prove or answer this question?
:

.47025.47001

[Bill Clarke]

Co2 develops gas from boil off of the liquid that is in the tank. The pressure is constant as long as there is liquid Co2 remaining in the tank.
When a shot is taken, the internal pressure of the tank is momentarily reduced, causing some of the liquid to boil off and become gas, making the pressure go back up.
Hence - no reduction of pressure for each shot taken. That is why no regulator is required.

airgun-at-despammed.com.47028.47023

[GaryN]

: How much is a co2 storage tank?
It depends on the size, siphon tube, new/used, and what kind.
I have a used 5 pound that I put a siphon tube in.
This same setup quoted from different vendors will range from about $90 to over $200.
Some guys really soak you for putting in the siphon tube. IMHO the siphon tube is only needed when you go above 5 pounds, as it gets more difficult and dangerous to invert a heavier tank. In fact I would not try to invert a 20 pound tank. On the other end, don't go too light, as some industrial gas dealers won't fill a co2 tank under 5 pounds.
It is more economical to get a larger tank as the refill does not cost much more than for a smaller tank.
I've also gotten quotes from fire extinguisher refil shops for used co2 fire extinguishers w the appropriate co2 valve, for significantly less $ than standard aluminum or steel tanks. So that is another option.
Gary
.47031.47022

[Claudio]

I have been shooting a CO2 air pistol on and off for years now and my Walther trigger seems to vary. I was trying to figure out if I should buy a better CO2 or CA, new or used.
I read somewhere that a top international shooter blamed a bad shoot on CO2 and wanted a better system and the Compressed Air Pistol was developed. Any truth to this, any one experience the same thing? Should I worry about CO2 only and if I become a master shooter in air?

incrocci-at-shaw.ca.47039.47001

[Gary]

I have a used Walther CPM1 (from Warren), and the trigger has been consistent. It is my trigger finger that has not been consistent.
Might I suggest you check your trigger adjustments, or consider having it serviced (maybe the old lube is dried out and sticky).
If the pistol is in good condition, and the temperature is within the accepted co2 range, you should not have a problem. If you are subject to HOT or COLD temperatures where you shoot, then CA would be an advantage.
Gary
.47042.47039

[Claudio]

All three Walther trigger weights(mine and my kids) seems fine at home (match or practice) but too heavy at other locations at a match. Too heavy at gun check and its hard to tell if its just the gun, the shooter or both. My kids sometimes ask me if I have adjusted or touched the trigger. So they notice the difference too. I shoot a CP3 Match and they shoot CPM1. I have heard from others when its too heavy at gun check and they say "ah its a Walther"
Not sure what to think.
incrocci-at-shaw.ca.47044.47042

[Wee Hooker]

I buy/lease mine from the local chain of welding supply/gas house.( BOC gas) Initial cost is $64 for a full 5# bottle. From there I need only turn it in and pay the refill charge and they hand me a freshly inspected filled bottle. No cert / inspection worries, safety waivers, etc. Took me 5 years to empty my first one and that was with also filling 3-4 other guys at my league with both pistol AND rifle. Hard value to beat IMHO. : : How much is a co2 storage tank?
: It depends on the size, siphon tube, new/used, and what kind.
: I have a used 5 pound that I put a siphon tube in.
: This same setup quoted from different vendors will range from about $90 to over $200.
: Some guys really soak you for putting in the siphon tube. IMHO the siphon tube is only needed when you go above 5 pounds, as it gets more difficult and dangerous to invert a heavier tank. In fact I would not try to invert a 20 pound tank. On the other end, don't go too light, as some industrial gas dealers won't fill a co2 tank under 5 pounds.
: It is more economical to get a larger tank as the refill does not cost much more than for a smaller tank.
: I've also gotten quotes from fire extinguisher refil shops for used co2 fire extinguishers w the appropriate co2 valve, for significantly less $ than standard aluminum or steel tanks. So that is another option.
: Gary

.47048.47031

[Wee Hooker]

: I used to shoot a walther Cp3 match. I had similar issues with the trigger. Seems like it would slowly work it's way out of adjustment no matter what I did. Otherwise it was an awsome shooter. I ended up selling it off to buy a (co2) Styer LP1 in 95'. Trigger issues went away and scores went up another 10-15 points. I'm perfectly content now.
: All three Walther trigger weights(mine and my kids) seems fine at home (match or practice) but too heavy at other locations at a match. Too heavy at gun check and its hard to tell if its just the gun, the shooter or both. My kids sometimes ask me if I have adjusted or touched the trigger. So they notice the difference too. I shoot a CP3 Match and they shoot CPM1. I have heard from others when its too heavy at gun check and they say "ah its a Walther"
: Not sure what to think.

.47049.47044

[walt young]

I had a co2 tank blow up in my face once. The gas supplier thought that my 2.5lb tank was 5lb, and when I touched the tank, the disk blew with a very loud bang.
I brought it back to the filler guy covered in ice and snow and said ''look what happened!''. His response was ''scared ya didn't it?'" ''yup''.

: : How much is a co2 storage tank?
: It depends on the size, siphon tube, new/used, and what kind.
: I have a used 5 pound that I put a siphon tube in.
: This same setup quoted from different vendors will range from about $90 to over $200.
: Some guys really soak you for putting in the siphon tube. IMHO the siphon tube is only needed when you go above 5 pounds, as it gets more difficult and dangerous to invert a heavier tank. In fact I would not try to invert a 20 pound tank. On the other end, don't go too light, as some industrial gas dealers won't fill a co2 tank under 5 pounds.
: It is more economical to get a larger tank as the refill does not cost much more than for a smaller tank.
: I've also gotten quotes from fire extinguisher refil shops for used co2 fire extinguishers w the appropriate co2 valve, for significantly less $ than standard aluminum or steel tanks. So that is another option.
: Gary

.47052.47031

[Spencer C]

: I had a co2 tank blow up in my face once. The gas supplier thought that my 2.5lb tank was 5lb, and when I touched the tank, the disk blew with a very loud bang.
A full 2.5lb tank is a full 2.5lb tank!
You cannot put more in.
Did you leave it on the stove?
.47079.47052