Why are Bullseye shooters such pussies?

[Rover]

I regularly shoot Bullseye, so I see what's going on....guys hopelessly spraying the targets year after year with only the mere hope of improvement. Yeah, I know there are some great shooters out there, but are you shooting next to one of them?

I have to admit that my favorite games are Free Pistol and Air Pistol....particularly AP. They are pure accuracy games.

I (in my obnoxious fashion) try encourage them to take up AP: it's cheap, you can do it anywhere (even in the privacy of your own bedroom with your wife or girlfriend), and you won't have crazed truncheon wielding blue meanies whackin' your noggin.

Apparently, the pursuit of accuracy is not in their game plan. WTF???

[william]

I wonder if some of it is fear of iron sights.

I suspect another factor is the lack of the rush from sustained fire. You know many times more B-E shooters migrate to the faster, more-spray-more-pray games than to the pure precision sports.

[6string]

Good questions.

Personally, I think there's a normalizing of mediocrity that is creeping into much of society.

I recently quit a pistol club where I'd been a member for 20 yrs. When I joined, we had a weekly Bullseye League and a twice weekly Int'l & air pistol meet. The club has been around since the 1930s. We used to send teams to Camp Perry. We held Int'l matches approved by USAS, with regular attendees from three states. Heck, we even ran Rapid Fire matches complete with the five position target turners. I also coached a junior air pistol program there. It was a great place!
Not anymore!
Now, it's a "spray & pray", "tacticool" club. Amazingly, many of the members are the same people. They simply got lazy.
The format changes led to a few accidents, fortunately with no injuries. An excellent USPSA range officer quit around the same time I did, out of frustration trying to get things taken seriously.
As executive range officer, I tried to get an NRA Bullseye qualification program started. (Shoot National match courses for score, etc.) It was met with total hostility.
Some of the comments from the board members were enlightening. "Folks just want to have fun". "I just want to try out my carry piece". "That just alienates members". "We don't want to discourage people" (can you believe that one?!) Etc....
I wasn't trying to replace or change what they were doing, simply add an option. I still think some members would have enjoyed it.

The reason I mention societal changes is because I hear the same things elsewhere.
I know a thing or two about "higher education". There's lots of problems with academic standards.
There's a big shift in priorities towards athletics.
OK. So I tried to start an air pistol program. There's still a few students here and there that would really enjoy it!
So far, the answer from decision makers is "No".
But, if we're going to address things, I really believe that's a good way to start.

Are Bullseye shooters "pussies"? I don't know about that. There aren't any left anywhere near me!
But, whatever is going on, the causes seem to fall outside of the sport.

In the meantime, I take my free pistol to the 50 yd outdoor range nearby a few times a week. At least people seem interested and it generates lots of conversation. So, maybe there's hope!

[Mike M.]

Rover, it's a longstanding problem. At least 25 years old, possibly more.

I think part of the problem is that the precision disciplines demand patient, loving practice. Especially once you're onto the flat part of the learning curve. Shooting a 500 in AP is easy. Shooting a 550 is hard. Shooting a 575 is VERY hard. And there's a large 'duffer brigade' that wants to simply make noise and sling bullets in the general direction of the target.

You see it in everything. Excellence takes work. Go to a martial arts dojo...everybody wants "kewl" MMA stuff, not the less flashy but more lethal traditional techniques.

In both cases, the duffers never realize that the masters spent time mastering the old disciplines. Go read books on "combat shooting" written before shooting schools became an industry...they all said "Shoot at least one year of Bullseye". It's the ballet of the shooting sports - it teaches sound fundamentals.

[crankythunder]

Congratulations Rover:

You have just insulted every bullseye shooter in the nation, perhaps every bullseye competitor on the planet.

Personally, I admire and congratulate those that post better scores then I do, and encourage and support the less experienced that shoot beside me. Precision Pistol is a wonderful sport, enjoyed by thousands.

The character that develops when I mentor a new shooter as they take interest in the shooting disciplines, the intensity, the dedication, and above all else the personal honesty and integrity, transfers directly too both their academic and professional career. It is amazing to guide these people that take a personal interest in competition shooting. Stand back and watch them succeed! Simply awesome.

I am also overwhelmed at the comradery on the competition line, and I have personally witnessed it in matches from coast to coast. I thought the positive sportsmanship was universal.

Until I read your post.

You disappoint me and I really feel sorry for you.

Sincerely,
George

[spektr]

This is a thread I dance around lightly.
I love precision events. My range is also the home of an IPSCC world champion in Both revolver classes, optics and Iron's. I watch this guy practice, were feiends. Mike Pogge is fast and accurate. Its all on the clock with time added for a near miss and even more time for a complete miss. Yeah, you can call it spray and pray, but thats doing a disservice to shooters who excell at it. It was pretty interesting to hear him say that a slow fire match would really be a good addition to their event.

Perhaps we shouldn't be down on that which we are not up on.....

[JamesHH]

The main benefit of IPSC is there is no absolute scoring, however bad the group someone is guaranteed to shoot 100% on the day, a few people will shoot ~90%, maybe the worst guy will shoot 60% - this makes people feel good and it doesn't matter that their ability is wildly removed from that of a competent shot.

It also explains why your average club 'combat' shooter so rarely attends a tournament - they know they'll get found out, or more likely disqualified for incompetent gun-handling.

I used to really really enjoy outshooting my friends and their compensated 45s with my as-issued Hi-Power shooting minor - with zero practice or preparation.

[CR10X]

My apologies. I forgot that when you start arguing with an Ahole, eventually it will be hard for people to tell the difference. So I'll just delete mine so they won't get confused.

CR
High Master, DP, DR, D22, P100x14
Orton, Wyman, Oglethorpe, Root and Gold Cup

[william]

"...can't find one of your "elite accuracy" competitions anywhere within a few hundred miles."

Have you made any effort to organize one?

I started out as a strictly Bullseye shooter and quickly saw the value of air pistol in polishing basic skills, including being able to practice in my own basement regardless of time or weather. You could sell the idea to your B-E friends if you cared to. Or is it too much fun to rag on 'elite accuracy' disciplines and us "obnoxious, self important, elitist butt heads" who compete in them?

There is an old and very wise Native American saying: Every time you point a finger in scorn—there are three remaining fingers pointing right back at you.

[rkittine]

I did not start shooting Bullseye until I was 71. I doubt that I will ever get good, but I like the game and I just don't understand how I might be hurting anyone by posting mediocre scores. The problem that there seems to be where I am is that there is not enough shooters of any level that are shooting any more, even prior to the pandemic. I also have 3 Free Pistols and yet have found anyone that wants to shoot FP through our club has a range that is appropriate.

Bob

[CR10X]

See post above.

[Rover]

My apologies. I forgot that when you start arguing with an Ahole, eventually it will be hard for people to tell the difference. So I'll just delete mine so they won't get confused.

CR
High Master, DP, DR, D22, P100x14
Orton, Wyman, Oglethorpe, Root and Gold Cup

Are you saying then that shooting AP would be of no benefit to your inferiors?

[BEA]

Last night I started and deleted 3 responses regarding your post, Rover. I decided I would stand back and watch someone else chew you up first. I am not sure if you are really serious or if you just want to stir up controversy. Both I guess. Either way, you may shoot a lot of bullseye, but you do not really see what is going on. I just hope that the condescending attitude that you are displaying here does not show up on the range. You may not admire some shooters abilities or aspirations, but your club needs their participation and our sport needs all the advocates we can get. It is fine to promote AP shooting but do not discourage bullseye shooting in the process just because you do not think someone contributes to the talent pool as you see fit. Some shooters may show up at a match, unpracticed, just simply to get out of the house for a day. They belong just as much as high level shooters. In addition, an AP shooter has no room to refer to bullseye shooters as p..sies. If any group of shooters tend to be "sensitive" it is the international crowd. This is coming from someone who has shot lots of AP and FP. My final point is I suggest trying to stand out with a sound thought process rather than being the Target Talk shock jock. But...God bless your enthusiastic spirit. My guess is you are a pretty good egg but boredom overcomes you at times.

[crankythunder]

Last night I started and deleted 3 responses regarding your post, Rover. I decided I would stand back and watch someone else chew you up first. I am not sure if you are really serious or if you just want to stir up controversy. Both I guess. Either way, you may shoot a lot of bullseye, but you do not really see what is going on. I just hope that the condescending attitude that you are displaying here does not show up on the range. You may not admire some shooters abilities or aspirations, but your club needs their participation and our sport needs all the advocates we can get. It is fine to promote AP shooting but do not discourage bullseye shooting in the process just because you do not think someone contributes to the talent pool as you see fit. Some shooters may show up at a match, unpracticed, just simply to get out of the house for a day. They belong just as much as high level shooter. In addition, an AP shooter has no room to refer to bullseye shooters as p..sies. If any group of shooters tend to be "sensitive" it is the international crowd. This is coming from someone who has shot lots of AP and FP. My final point is I suggest trying to stand out with a sound thought process rather than being the Target Talk shock jock. But...God bless your enthusiastic spirit. My guess is you are a pretty good egg but boredom overcomes you at times.

Dear BEA:

That is the most eloquent description of a ArseHOLE and delivery of an Insult that I have ever read. I applaud you and will continue to monitor this thread although will refrain from encouraging the original poster.

Regards,
George

[6string]

Of the few MLAIC (Int'l Muzzleloading) pistol shooters I've spoken to, here and abroad, the consensus is that air pistol and/or free pistol are intrinsic parts of their training. The long barrel time of the AP requires the same follow through as the ignition of a muzzleloader. Trigger quality and weight are similar, at least for the set trigger flint or cap muzzleloaders, too. The course of fire is pretty similar, too. Grip style and sights are a huge difference, though.

For Bullseye, Steyr makes the very nice 5 shot LP50, which is even available with heavier trigger, 1911 grip frame, and red dot sight. I tried the predecessor, the LP5, and liked it OK. But the trigger was too "stagey" for my taste.
Anybody using an LP50 for Bullseye training? I think, maybe, the only other "official" users might be silhouette shooters?

I visited the Bullseye L forum elsewhere and searched around out of curiosity. There seemed to be an archive of "for sale" listings for LP50s more so than posts discussing its use for training. Some comments seem to suggest an opinion that they are of limited usefulness. Others felt they were an expensive investment for a training aid.
Some folks said they think there is a correlation between air pistol and .22, from a training standpoint, but that the .45 is distinctly it's own thing. And, then there were those that just found it kinda boring!

If you do use an air pistol for Bullseye training, are the single shots preferable to the LP50?

[Rover]

http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63432

[oldsalt444]

Rover, I'd like to see you at Camp Perry and call all of the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force Marksmanship Team shooters pussies. They will likely drop kick your scrawny ass into the next county. Think before you speak, my friend.

That being said, Bullseye shooting is a most difficult shooting sport. Some beginners will spray and pray, but those who have the where-with-all to stick it out usually improve with some friendly coaching and practice. It is unfortunate that today's generation with iphones and instant gratification prefer the runnin' and gunnin' style, since it is not nearly as demanding as precision pistol. Most of them won't go near a bullseye match. I watch those guys come off the line and if they had a good run will high five their buddies like they have really accomplished something. I just shake my head and chuckle to myself.

[Two Shanks]

All I have ever seen of Bullseye shooters is really good People. They are helpful and very talented. I still stand in awe of the one I saw that had a .45 that looked like heck. I looked at his gun and thought what a pos and then stood there with my mouth open as he put every round through the 10 ring at 25yds. This was back before red dot sights.

[dulcmr-man]

I just completed the Desert Mid-Winter match hosted by Phoenix Rod and Gun Club, an organization to which Rover recently (maybe still does) belong. As I'm sure he knows, this is one of the most well run matches around. I saw a lot of folks having a good time, enjoying camaraderie, and striving to improve upon their personal best. I will shoot there as long as I am able. I'm pretty sure that Rover is just stirring the pot to see what kind of response he can garner.

Anyone who's been on this site for any time at all will know that Rover likes to poke the bear with a sharp stick just to see which way he runs.

Have fun with the sport of YOUR choice and compete against yourself. Nothing beats improving your marksmanship skills a step at a time regardless of the discipline that you find suits you.

Shoot Xs.

Dennis, aka Dulcmrman

[atomicgale]

Highly disappointed with Rover on this thread . . .

Congratulations Rover:
You have just insulted every bullseye shooter in the nation, perhaps every bullseye competitor on the planet.

. . . usually Rover insults EVERYONE, not just bullseye competitors.