ISSF propose 2005 no more shooting pants

[kads]

Propose by issf beggining 2005 no more shooting pants. so we use shorts pant but should be leather(joke joke !!!!!!!!)
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[JT]

: Propose by issf beggining 2005 no more shooting pants. so we use shorts pant but should be leather(joke joke !!!!!!!!)
Where did you find this info? Is it on the ISSF web site?
shootingsports-at-ev1.net.45659.45657

[Bob Riegl a/k/a The Ole C]

I remember when the Russians showed up with leather jackets for their Free pistol and Free Rifle teams in the 50's. It wasn't long before Ten-X had a similar jacket for smallbore shooters. It was also around then that WWII surplus US Army ski boots become de rigeur as well for kneeling and offhand. I think these future changes are all for the good as much of this (very) expensive clothing actually forms an artificial support for the shooters. If your pants are stiffer than mine and my shoes are flatter than yours and my second sweatshirt locks me in prone better---ergo I am a better shooter?
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[Don]

: : Propose by issf beggining 2005 no more shooting pants. so we use shorts pant but should be leather(joke joke !!!!!!!!)
: Where did you find this info? Is it on the ISSF web site?
This info, along with other proposals, has been around in various locations for at least a year or more. But, the rules will not be changed until after Athens.
.45665.45659

[David Levene]

: : Propose by issf beggining 2005 no more shooting pants. so we use shorts pant but should be leather(joke joke !!!!!!!!)
: Where did you find this info? Is it on the ISSF web site?
Try the link below. The suggestion is that trousers should only be allowed for kneeling (although I thought that I had seen an alternative proposal banning them completely).
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.45667.45659

[Bill]

First, everyone needs to flood the ISSF with their thoughts. I sent my opinions to them just a few minutes ago. Personally, I think they have lost their marbles.
Second, if they adopt this rule (and I don't want to jump ahead), we should consider dumping the ISSF. It's maybe not that easy, but governments can be changed, and so can the ISSF. They are not immune.
Bill
.45669.45657

[David Levene]

: First, everyone needs to flood the ISSF with their thoughts. I sent my opinions to them just a few minutes ago. Personally, I think they have lost their marbles.
: Second, if they adopt this rule (and I don't want to jump ahead), we should consider dumping the ISSF. It's maybe not that easy, but governments can be changed, and so can the ISSF. They are not immune.
They may not be immune but they are pretty safe if it takes people 6 months to complain.


dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.45671.45669

[Michèle]

According to both Bob Mitchell and Gary Anderson (both speaking at this October's National Coach Conference), the rule change regarding pants is pretty much a sure thing.
What amazes me, though, is that the reasoning behind it is NOT because scores are too high, but because rifle shooters look 'awkward' to the media.
Remember, it is media appeal (or lack of it) that drove us to include the Finals in 1988. It was the media's complaint that the shooter's face should be viewable that has lead to a change regarding blinders.
I imagine that the very top athletes will still be the very top athletes even without the stiff pants that we have grown accustomed to. There were scores in the 1170's before pants, and, the real champions will emerge again.
Interestingly, the current pants never did really comply within the already accepted rules. They were never supposed to 'add support.'
The new pants will, according to Gary Anderson, probably have to pass a sort of 'crumple test' by which they will no longer stand on their own but, rather, 'crumple' to the floor like regular trousers.
The thought of allowing the pants for kneeling has pretty much been discarded.

makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.45674.45657

[David]

: Here is an intereting letter written by Kurt Thune (yes, Kurt Thune is an actual person).
Dear Shooting Friend,
The shooting equipment industry, which provides equipment to Rifle Shooters, (guns/ammo/clothes/training device/target producers) met with some of the worlds most important coaches and shooting athletes during the recently completed European Championships for Air Gun in Gothenburg, Sweden on November 6, 2003. After hearing the opinions of the coaches and shooters, the industry representatives decided to forward the following information:
PROPOSED NEW RIFLE SHOOTING RULES
Quotes from 'Significant Proposed Changes for the ISSF Rules 2005':
"7.4.9.1.1 Only one shooting jacket, only one pair of kneeling trousers and only one pair of shooting shoes may be.…”
"The use of special trousers (for standing shooting position) is prohibited."
This means that anything other than thin sport/jogging pants will not be allowed. Even jeans will be prohibited in standing shooting position. Rules will need to be formulated to cover what kind of pants would be allowed for standing (or prone).
The results of the proposed change of the rules can be expected as follows:
Many normal hobby shooters who have been buying pants during the last years will be disappointed when not allowed to use then any more. They cannot even sell the 'kneeling pants' when there are too few 3-position shooters around.
Many older, experienced shooters cannot or will not shoot without supporting pants. This means that many shooters with good buying power will be lost from the shooting sport.
Juniors growing up cannot practice the many hours necessary to develop shooting skills without severe health problems. Many parents will no longer accept that their children shoot standing without the support of real shooting pants. The image of rifle shooting will be that it is dangerous for the health and skeletal development of young shooters. The shooting sports already suffer from the 'shooting is violence/military/dangerous guns' image and more negative aspects are not needed.
Reduced numbers of shooters will reduce the amount of all kinds of equipment needed and reduce the turnover of all Industry involved in rifle shooting. This concerns producers of ammunition, clothing, guns, gun cases, hearing protection, shooting range facilities, training aids, targets etc. as well as the distributors and retail outlets.
The producers of shooting clothing, which will take the first punch, already report lowered turnover due to the uncertainty. The effect on the rest of the industry will come later but cannot be avoided. The reduced turnover in the rifle sector cannot be compensated for in pistol or other sectors.
While not a factor in the United States, in the European Union, the two-year warranty law has just been made valid. A lawyer can argue that the ISSF or local federations are responsible to compensate for several thousand pants that would no longer be legal.
With reduced amount of shooters there is the risk of complete disaster in the end; that the shooting sport would be eliminated from or severely curtailed in the Olympics. Double Trap and Running Target disciplines were recently lost and the continued existence of Rapid Fire Pistol is being discussed. The next discipline to suffer may be Rifle.

MOTIVATION FOR NEW RULES


The only real argument seems to be that the shooters do not walk naturally when going in to shot a final. But if this is the problem it can easily be solved by a gentlemen's agreement by all shooters to walk into the shooting range more naturally! Actually, the reason rifle shooters walk funny is more due to the shooting shoes with the stiff, flat sole, and the athlete trying to avoid curling up the toes, than to the pants.

PROTESTS


The Olympic Champion Rajmond Debevec from Slovenia has written a letter, to the ISSF. On the letter Rajmond has collected 273 signatures from leading shooters and coaches in 50 countries. The ISSF does not seem to care about the opinion of the ISSF most active members, the shooters.
The proposed new Rifle Rules were NOT accepted during ISSF meeting on Cyprus in October 2003. The reason was an official letter from the German Shooting Federation (DSB). The letter was a statement from three leading doctors in the DSB. But the proposed changes are still discussed and an informal decision expected in two weeks!
For those of you who are from the United States, the US Federation is more important in the ISSF than you may think. This was made clear during the European Championship meeting. It seems that only a very few on the ISSF Executive committee are against today's pants. If a message could come from US Shooting to ISSF much would have been won.

WHAT YOU NEED TO DO ASAP!


It appears that ONLY health problems arguments can influence the ISSF to turn away from this course of action. So…
Forward this email to all your rifle shooting friends.
Ask them to have the Rifle Committee of YOUR Shooting Federation immediately consult medical/orthopedic expertise,
and urge them to write a letter in their own words regarding these health problems to the ISSF:
If you live in the USA contact Robert Mitchell, CEO for USA Shooting and David Johnson, USA Shooting National Rifle Coach
The email address for the ISSF is munich@issf-shooting.org
It is also very important that a copy of the letter is sent directly to the Chairman of the ISSF Rifle Committee, Mr. Tomislav Sepec, CRO: info@hrvatski-streljacki.hr
Your help is urgently needed in this situation. Before it is too late. You can make a difference in preserving the sport!
Best Regards,
Kurt Thune
OY TEEMA LINE LTD
Kutomonkuja 2 E 1
FIN-30100 FORSSA
FINLAND
Phone: +358-3-4225506, Fax: +358-3-4225548
e-mail: kurtthune.export@surffi.net

DEAmiot-at-aol.com.45681.45657

[Josh]

I agree about the same shooters winning. But if their reson is for look I think they are going in the wrong direction. At least with the shooting pants everything matched but seeing someone with a shooting coat, boots and sweat/sport pants looks retarded. It's a akward outfit compared to what most people have as a well matched suit. So it's more likely to make every one look like a bunch of amateurs.
Josh
.45682.45674

[Bill Poole]

I am very glad to hear from Mr Thune and I really like the coat I wear that has his name on it.
But I have trouble agreeing with the "health" arguments of stiff shooting PANTS!
There are over 1300 Shooters at Camp Perry during CMP week's LEG or President's rifle matches, holding 15lb AR-15's offhand and almost everyone of them civilian and military is wearing soft BDU pants! And the rest wear jeans!
Now, if there IS a big problem with High Power shooters suffering from lack of shooting pants or silly-wet shooters lack of coats etc then that would provide "evidence" for the argument with ISSF.
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
bill-at-poole.com.45684.45681

[Joseph Simoneau]

In all honesty, that reason makes more sense than simply trying to lower scores. If they wanted to lower scores, the most logical course of action is to make the targets smaller, without a dot for air rifles, and use outside plugs more for paper targets.
I agree with Mr. Thune's "Gentleman's Agreement" idea...and if you're in a telavised final, chances are you can afford to replaced bent boots.
Also, has the ISSF thought about what it would look like when someone wins the olympics wearing sweat pants with a logo/text that reads, "F*** THE ISSF" (in no uncertain terms)?
That being said, if they're gone then they're gone.
As a side note, it's time for me to buy a new suit. After talking to one of my best coaches, I was about sold on a Stenvaag design suit...however, I may be buying a Thune (despite extra money and the fact that it'll probably take longer to get it) out of support of his letter.
simonjoe-at-bellsouth.net.45686.45674

[Mick Young]

But my question is that do they train for 4-5 hours a day to shoot their ar15's? The amount of training the top level athletes do requires that they have some sort of aid. I kow that I want my daughter to go down the shooting path, but I will not allow her to do so without the shooting pants.
Keep'em in the middle
Mick Young
mickjyoung-at-optusnet.com.au.45689.45684

[Grzegorz]

Mick is right. My son very often states that pants in standing support a back (to avoid questions - everything is according to ISSF Rules with his pants!) very well. When I order to him some "of pants" (jacket only) practice he compains about a pain in a back. Of course, we can change this sport, limit number of shots, decrease time for a shot, limit rifle weight to 3 kg etc. etc. but why? Because media complains? You know what is my opinion? The media should simply run their brains and start work looking for a good, interesting TV image from shooting events - it is possible without discussing pants-no pants problems. But they are lazy and non inventive so we have this ridiculous discussion. And ISSF guys? Take a look into the one of recent ISSF News. Can this Adams Family do something good for the shooting sport? They only think about they possitions and how to keep them as long as possible - until a death... or even longer... Let's give a good example - ski jumping. Extremally popular here in Europe. All winter we have TV transmisions. Guys jump - fly - land. Finished... 2 houres the same image. Nothing changes. But they found a good formula and spectators watch it. That's all...
.45691.45689

[pdeal]

They should change the rules to require shooting 94 Winchesters and shooting from horseback- now that would make a good show!
Seriously, I had never hear that, that is rediculous.
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.45693.45674

[Eric U.]

High power rifle is no comparison. You wear shooting jackets that are at least 3-4 times stiffer than the ISSF jackets, and you cinch them tight with straps, we use buttons that purposely keep the jacket a little loose. Rarely does a high power shooter practice standing for more than 20 minutes...probably a week, let alone in a day. A normal high-power standing match lasts 10-22 minutes. A 60 shot air-rifle match lasts 1 hour and 45 minutes. There really is no comparison.
Eric U. (1990 National Service Rifle Champion)
.45694.45684

[Tom Monto]

I too was at the recent coaches conference in Colorado Springs and listened to Gary Anderson talk about proposed rules changes that would take effect after the 2004 games. While I did not take notes or record what he said, I think the meat of the proposed rule change has nothing to do with the media in terms of the pants.
Rule 7.4.9 states and I quote " The use of any special devices, means or garments which immobolize or unduly reduce the movement of the shooter's legs, body, or arms is prohibited in order to assure that the performance skills of the shooters are not artificially improved by special clothing".
I don't think anyone would question that pants do provide artificial support. The question then becomes does a shooting coat provide support? I think so. Do shooting boots provide support? I think so.
Anderson stated that when he was in the Olympics shooting pants as we know them were not available. As I recall (and I am ofter wrong)he shot with a buckle coat similar to the NRA shooting coat. These coat were outlawed as they provided artificial support.
If the spirit of the rule was met, then no coats, pants, shoes, etc. would be allowed and the shooter would shoot in "warm-ups".(I guess similar to biathalon)
To my knowledge, no one has shot at 1200 with 120 X's, so what is this all about? I think the same shooters who are winning now will win regardless of equipment restrictions. I also think that the coat, pants and shoes give the novice shooter support and therefore improves their scores, giving them confidence, artificial or not, it doesn't matter.
The problem I have is the constant changing of the rules. What difference does it make? All of the shooters has access to or are using "state of the art" equipment. In my view this levels the playing field and all are equal in equipment and it is the skill of the shooter that decides who is the winner.
Shooters shooting air rifle in the sporter class do so wih no special equipment and their scores are truly impressive. However they are lower than precision scores. Why you ask? Several factors enter into the equation. Rifles: The specifications are differant, clothes, the same. One aspect is that most (not all)sporter shooters are a step below precision shooters in the terms of skill level. Give the precision shooters the same equipment as sporter and soon these former precision shooters will be winning the sporter.
Sure score MAY be lower overall, but again if everyone is on the same level playing field, what's the fuss.
Equipment manufactures will be hard hit, which is unfortunate. They will have roughly 50% of their revenue cut because of the new rule.
Just my two cents worth.
TM

t8monto-at-aol.com.45695.45657

[In the know]

...if the ISSF changes, it's likely that a certain individual at the NRA will do all he can to also change the NRA rules to follow suit. Basically, he's a prone shooter who dislikes 3-P shooting, only shoots prone, and feels that shooting pants serve no purpose except to provide artificial support. If we start to hear grumblings, we the shooters need to tell him what we want- not the other way around.
The question then becomes this: will the ISSF have one set of rules, the NRA another, and possibly the NCAA yet a third? Maybe not a bad idea. But then it forces coaches to decide on a single program.
Quite frankly, I would discard the ISSF-style, and would propose that the NCAA move away from ISSf-type rules and adopt their own.
Whata mess.

.45697.45657

[Michèle]

That was one of my first thoughts, too. At the Coach Conference I asked the NRA leadership present how this proposed rule change would effect the NRA rules. I was told that there is no current consideration to change them.
Looking at the NRA's separation of International and Conventional, I can buy that. I mean, the pull tab coats are still allowed for Conventional and Perry is Conventional.
I do worry, however, that the NCAA rules tend to parallel the international rules. Look at the composition of the US Team (Rifle) and it is very apparent that the NCAA program has a huge impact. With so many collegiates on or vying for spots on the US Team, and the predisposition to follow international rules, my guess (which is as good as anybody's) would be that over time the NCAA rules would come into compliance with ISSF.

makpak3200-at-earthlink.net.45699.45697

[Craig]

: Mick is right. My son very often states that pants in standing support a back (to avoid questions - everything is according to ISSF Rules with his pants!) very well. When I order to him some "of pants" (jacket only) practice he compains about a pain in a back. Of course, we can change this sport, limit number of shots, decrease time for a shot, limit rifle weight to 3 kg etc. etc. but why? Because media complains? You know what is my opinion? The media should simply run their brains and start work looking for a good, interesting TV image from shooting events - it is possible without discussing pants-no pants problems. But they are lazy and non inventive so we have this ridiculous discussion. And ISSF guys? Take a look into the one of recent ISSF News. Can this Adams Family do something good for the shooting sport? They only think about they possitions and how to keep them as long as possible - until a death... or even longer... Let's give a good example - ski jumping. Extremally popular here in Europe. All winter we have TV transmisions. Guys jump - fly - land. Finished... 2 houres the same image. Nothing changes. But they found a good formula and spectators watch it. That's all...

.45701.45691