Hello all,
My granddaughter is making good progress, and it's now about time to get a .22LR for her to use. I'm considering a Ruger Mark IV Target and then making mods such as a Volquartsen trigger kit, ISSF-legal grips, etc. She has successfully fired a FWB AW93 Light pistol, but it's not time to make this price jump yet.
Regarding the Ruger, somewhere in my mind I had the recollection that the ISSF did not allow for pistols to have manual safeties on them. But, I do not see this anywhere in the most recent rules. Does anyone know where I may have gotten that idea?
Regarding mods to the Ruger, if anyone can suggest sources for mods, that would be appreciated.
BTW, regarding my previous post about making grips for the Steyr LP5, it turns out that her unusually tiny hands will not reach from the backstrap to the face of the trigger on this pistol, regardless of how small or thin the grip is made. According to the Steyr grip chart, she should be in a XS grip. But comparing the LP5 to my Morini 162EI shows a much shorter distance on the Morini than on the LP5.
With all that being said, does anyone know if the Ruger backstrap-to-trigger distance will be a challenge for her? How does it compare to these other pistols?
TIA
Stan
Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
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Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
All semi-auto pistols imported into the US have to have safeties. The ISSF rules allow them, or nobody in the US would be able to compete.
Any pistol with the magazine in the grip is going to be much more limited in terms of grip size & trigger reach for small hands than pistols with the magazine in front of the trigger guard. I don't think the Ruger frame is especially large, but just because you can get a small grip doesn't mean she will be able to reach the trigger. The collegiate team I help coach has a number of small Asian women, with tiny hands. We have Benellis & Pardinis, which can be easily fitted with XXS grips.
You may want to talk to Andrew Berryhill at Precision Target Pistol Grips (https://www.precisiontargetpistolgrips.com/). He should know what is possible with many US made pistols.
On the LP5, I'm guessing it is similar to the LP50. The only way my wife can reach the "trigger" properly even with an XS grip is to remove the trigger shoe entirely.
Any pistol with the magazine in the grip is going to be much more limited in terms of grip size & trigger reach for small hands than pistols with the magazine in front of the trigger guard. I don't think the Ruger frame is especially large, but just because you can get a small grip doesn't mean she will be able to reach the trigger. The collegiate team I help coach has a number of small Asian women, with tiny hands. We have Benellis & Pardinis, which can be easily fitted with XXS grips.
You may want to talk to Andrew Berryhill at Precision Target Pistol Grips (https://www.precisiontargetpistolgrips.com/). He should know what is possible with many US made pistols.
On the LP5, I'm guessing it is similar to the LP50. The only way my wife can reach the "trigger" properly even with an XS grip is to remove the trigger shoe entirely.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Thanks so much for the info.
Do the Benellis and Pardinis seem to work Ok for those very small hands?
At which college do you coach? I have considered doing this at a local college.
Stan
Do the Benellis and Pardinis seem to work Ok for those very small hands?
At which college do you coach? I have considered doing this at a local college.
Stan
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
I coach at MIT. The opinions posted here are my own, and do not reflect anything from the University, etc.
We have several women shooting with XXS grips. We've got over 20 Benellis and 5 Pardinis. I'm pretty sure we've got a couple XXS grips installed on the Benellis at the moment, and at least one of the Pardinis. There's very little metal that sticks down very far into the grip area, so there is a lot of leeway to use a small grip and get it close to the trigger. The Benellis also have a spacer that you can remove that moves the entire grip forward by ~ 4 or 5 mm.
We have several women shooting with XXS grips. We've got over 20 Benellis and 5 Pardinis. I'm pretty sure we've got a couple XXS grips installed on the Benellis at the moment, and at least one of the Pardinis. There's very little metal that sticks down very far into the grip area, so there is a lot of leeway to use a small grip and get it close to the trigger. The Benellis also have a spacer that you can remove that moves the entire grip forward by ~ 4 or 5 mm.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
An update on this saga...
Found a Ruger Mark IV Target at the local Bass Pro Shop. Had my granddaughter try it to see if she could properly grip it and get her finger on the trigger correctly. Success!
I'd already planned to put in the Volquartsen trigger kit. And, I'm now looking for an ISSF-legal XS adjustable grip for this pistol. Also may want to upgrade the sights, but for now, the trigger and grip take priority.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
She's selected her new air pistol and now the Ruger. So, she's on her way!
Found a Ruger Mark IV Target at the local Bass Pro Shop. Had my granddaughter try it to see if she could properly grip it and get her finger on the trigger correctly. Success!
I'd already planned to put in the Volquartsen trigger kit. And, I'm now looking for an ISSF-legal XS adjustable grip for this pistol. Also may want to upgrade the sights, but for now, the trigger and grip take priority.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
She's selected her new air pistol and now the Ruger. So, she's on her way!
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
The most economical grips would be 3D printed from Precision Target Pistol Grips. The catch is that he doesn't do adjustable palm shelves, which is going to be a problem for a growing shooter.
I'd go with Rink. You can order directly, and they make excellent grips. I'm partial to Nill Griffe grips, but they are significantly more expensive.
I'd go with Rink. You can order directly, and they make excellent grips. I'm partial to Nill Griffe grips, but they are significantly more expensive.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Actually, the less expensive 3D grips might be the way to go for her right now. She stopped growing several years ago, and it's unlikely her tiny hands will change anytime soon, if ever.
The Ruger is, we hope, a stepping stone to either a FWB or Pardini. That might be the time to go full Rink. The only Rink grip I ever purchased was the best fit of any grip I ever had. Wish I had never sold it.
The Ruger is, we hope, a stepping stone to either a FWB or Pardini. That might be the time to go full Rink. The only Rink grip I ever purchased was the best fit of any grip I ever had. Wish I had never sold it.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Granddaughter had a really good training session today on 25m Pistol RF portion. Used a borrowed FWB AW93 which she cannot grip properly (hand shifted to the right).
The Ruger Mark IV Target is coming soon. Looking for replacement front, and especially, rear sights. Would like to have something similar to a black Bo-Mar rear with a plain, black front. Not having any luck finding this sight set yet. Everything seems to have fiber optics.
If anyone has a lead on these sights, please let me know.
TIA
Stan
The Ruger Mark IV Target is coming soon. Looking for replacement front, and especially, rear sights. Would like to have something similar to a black Bo-Mar rear with a plain, black front. Not having any luck finding this sight set yet. Everything seems to have fiber optics.
If anyone has a lead on these sights, please let me know.
TIA
Stan
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
You won't go wrong with Ruger but why not pick up a used MKII with good target sights & trigger job instead of MKIV?
Any decent gunsmith can do better trigger job than the Volquartsen kit & regular grips with thumb rest should be good start for your grand daughter to start training. My son shot the MARK II all the way up to Junior Olympics in Sport and USA Shooting Nationals in Standard & Sport pistol.
Ruger is not picky on ammo brand and very easy to clean & maintain, never had any problems or alibi at competitions, I wish his new Walther SSP would be as reliable as the MKII. I have two MKII's with 6" bull barrel & trigger jobs, two IZH35M (which probably has the shortest grip/trigger reach), AW93 and the SSP, they are all compatible with ISSF rules and all of them went through & passed equipment check at USA Shooting nationals.
Any decent gunsmith can do better trigger job than the Volquartsen kit & regular grips with thumb rest should be good start for your grand daughter to start training. My son shot the MARK II all the way up to Junior Olympics in Sport and USA Shooting Nationals in Standard & Sport pistol.
Ruger is not picky on ammo brand and very easy to clean & maintain, never had any problems or alibi at competitions, I wish his new Walther SSP would be as reliable as the MKII. I have two MKII's with 6" bull barrel & trigger jobs, two IZH35M (which probably has the shortest grip/trigger reach), AW93 and the SSP, they are all compatible with ISSF rules and all of them went through & passed equipment check at USA Shooting nationals.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
For me it's the other way around
I used to have a MK III and by fat the worst pistol I ever used
I could not use standard velocity ammo
I got a lot of stove pipe, would not cycle at all
Unless I use a high velocity
Easy to clean you said?
Wow i must have a real POS because I had the hardest time removing that pin/locking device then removing the upper from the frame was another task
I must of watch 100's of video and they all said it gets better but I never noticed that
Worse trigger out of the box but I did put a volquartsen trigger
A little better but no cigar
The sights was....well it is what it is!
I now have a Walther SSP and that pistol has never failed me
Loving it!
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Nah, that sounds a bit exaggerated. Or you just got a bad lemon.
From my experiences the Ruger is a fairly reliable plinker, but not a gun to shoose for target work.
Lucky you, you have truly got an extraordinary well behaving Walther SSP specimen.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Over the years, I have worked on and/or owned multiple instances of .22's made by High Standard, S&W, Benelli, & Pardini. I've also discussed Rugers & Brownings at length with multiple owners. Every pistol is at least a tiny bit different, and some start out (or end up at some point) as basket cases.
I've yet to run into one that couldn't be tuned up to run reliably with at least some flavor of ammo, but the worst ones may still insist on a diet of very specific makes (or worse, lots) of ammunition.
Claiming that any particular make or model of pistol is junk based on a sample size of one is meaningless. Even a well established line of good pistols can go through periods where materials, tooling, heat treating or sub-contracted small parts get out of spec. The manufacturers can also make design changes that can have unintended consequences that take a while to surface. The more expensive the pistol, the smaller the market, and the longer it can take to identify and fix problems.
An important question is: How well does the manufacturer (or their dealers) support their products? Particularly in the US, getting good service on European pistols can be tricky. With the possible exception of FWB & Hammerli (before they were bought by Walther), I don't know of a single US or European company that hasn't had instances of poor support at some time, so that can also vary a lot. Without naming names, problems I've seen include:
1) Lack of parts for older pistols: A design flaw is found and fixed in a major component that can render the pistol inoperable. The manufacturer didn't make adequate spares for the pistols already sold, and expected customers to buy a new pistol.
2) Refusing to admit mistakes: A design change is made to a major component that causes subtle problems which only surface shortly after the warranty expires. They quietly revert to the original design, and refuse to admit that there was ever an issue. They also aren't willing to replace the defective parts at their expense, or offer even a discount to affected owners.
3) Useless warranty service: A new pistol is sold with a serious problem. The pistol is returned to the factory to be repaired, and is shipped back to the customer basically untouched. I've seen this cycle repeated a couple times with at least two respected US companies.
4) Lying about test firing: A company claims EVERY pistol is test fired at the factory. A pistol is sold with the barrel on backwards. The breech is crowned, and there is a chamber in the front. At least with high end European pistols, you often get a test target.
Combined with companies going out of business, or getting bought up & merged, getting parts over the long haul for almost any pistol can be a gamble. The one company I've never heard anything but praise for is Feinwerkbau. I haven't owned one in decades, but apparently they are good about parts for old pistols. They also don't keep re-designing their PCP cylinders every few years so you can still get them for older pistols. I suspect there are horror stories out there, but if so, they are rare.
Basically, buying a target pistol is a bit of a gamble. Most of them are fine, but there are lemons out there, and then you have to deal with whatever support you can get. I had to become a gunsmith a long time ago out of self-defense...
I've yet to run into one that couldn't be tuned up to run reliably with at least some flavor of ammo, but the worst ones may still insist on a diet of very specific makes (or worse, lots) of ammunition.
Claiming that any particular make or model of pistol is junk based on a sample size of one is meaningless. Even a well established line of good pistols can go through periods where materials, tooling, heat treating or sub-contracted small parts get out of spec. The manufacturers can also make design changes that can have unintended consequences that take a while to surface. The more expensive the pistol, the smaller the market, and the longer it can take to identify and fix problems.
An important question is: How well does the manufacturer (or their dealers) support their products? Particularly in the US, getting good service on European pistols can be tricky. With the possible exception of FWB & Hammerli (before they were bought by Walther), I don't know of a single US or European company that hasn't had instances of poor support at some time, so that can also vary a lot. Without naming names, problems I've seen include:
1) Lack of parts for older pistols: A design flaw is found and fixed in a major component that can render the pistol inoperable. The manufacturer didn't make adequate spares for the pistols already sold, and expected customers to buy a new pistol.
2) Refusing to admit mistakes: A design change is made to a major component that causes subtle problems which only surface shortly after the warranty expires. They quietly revert to the original design, and refuse to admit that there was ever an issue. They also aren't willing to replace the defective parts at their expense, or offer even a discount to affected owners.
3) Useless warranty service: A new pistol is sold with a serious problem. The pistol is returned to the factory to be repaired, and is shipped back to the customer basically untouched. I've seen this cycle repeated a couple times with at least two respected US companies.
4) Lying about test firing: A company claims EVERY pistol is test fired at the factory. A pistol is sold with the barrel on backwards. The breech is crowned, and there is a chamber in the front. At least with high end European pistols, you often get a test target.
Combined with companies going out of business, or getting bought up & merged, getting parts over the long haul for almost any pistol can be a gamble. The one company I've never heard anything but praise for is Feinwerkbau. I haven't owned one in decades, but apparently they are good about parts for old pistols. They also don't keep re-designing their PCP cylinders every few years so you can still get them for older pistols. I suspect there are horror stories out there, but if so, they are rare.
Basically, buying a target pistol is a bit of a gamble. Most of them are fine, but there are lemons out there, and then you have to deal with whatever support you can get. I had to become a gunsmith a long time ago out of self-defense...
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Had one such bad experience many years ago, with a Walther LP 2 , a single stroke pneumatic.
https://www.google.no/search?q=Walther+ ... NKp1lB1G0M:
I bought this pistol, brand new, (to replace my FWB 65), used it in my first Nationals (I won the junior class). After a few thousand shots it started leaking, and muzzle velocity varied. The gunshop shipped it to the Walther factory, and I got it back just in time for an upcoming international championship.
But the gun was still leaking...
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Lucky you, you have truly got an extraordinary well behaving Walther SSP specimen.
Mine is an extraordinary well behaving one as well. I suspect most are, it is only the ones that do not behave that you hear about. From experience at my club most of the feed problems of the SSP are caused by the height of the magazine in the pistol. The mag latch is the problem.
My Pardini HP is reliable my 22 SP conversion has had problems with quality of some bits in the conversion. None of the other Pardini's at he club have this fault at my club. I just got unlucky.
Mine is an extraordinary well behaving one as well. I suspect most are, it is only the ones that do not behave that you hear about. From experience at my club most of the feed problems of the SSP are caused by the height of the magazine in the pistol. The mag latch is the problem.
My Pardini HP is reliable my 22 SP conversion has had problems with quality of some bits in the conversion. None of the other Pardini's at he club have this fault at my club. I just got unlucky.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Hello all,
Just an update on the Ruger. Took possession of it a couple of weeks ago, and my granddaughter has fired a number of rounds through it. We've been using CCI Standard Velocity ammo.
Out of about 300 - 400 shots, the pistol has failed to clear an empty case 3 times. This has happened to her twice and once to me. Inspection of the malfunction shows an empty case sitting on top of the next round in the magazine. It seems like the pistol cycled correctly, but the ejector did not kick the case out.
I plan to install the full Volquartsen accurizing kit. My question is whether or not the Volquartsen kit is likely to clear up the ejection issue. And if not, what else should I do?
Also, I've found this video which appears to be an excellent guide to making this change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9EmYwDyzg
If there's a better guide on how to do this job, please let me know.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
TIA
Stan
Just an update on the Ruger. Took possession of it a couple of weeks ago, and my granddaughter has fired a number of rounds through it. We've been using CCI Standard Velocity ammo.
Out of about 300 - 400 shots, the pistol has failed to clear an empty case 3 times. This has happened to her twice and once to me. Inspection of the malfunction shows an empty case sitting on top of the next round in the magazine. It seems like the pistol cycled correctly, but the ejector did not kick the case out.
I plan to install the full Volquartsen accurizing kit. My question is whether or not the Volquartsen kit is likely to clear up the ejection issue. And if not, what else should I do?
Also, I've found this video which appears to be an excellent guide to making this change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9EmYwDyzg
If there's a better guide on how to do this job, please let me know.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
TIA
Stan
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snaproll717
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Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Try Tandemcross parts. They have excellent replacement and upgrade parts for the Ruger. I have a MK III that I used most of their parts for and have had NO problems (fail to eject, fail to fire) since I replaced most ( did use Volquartsen bushing and trigger) of the original parts 3 years ago and many thousands of rounds.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Stan,
It sounds like the extractor isn't maintaining an adequate grip to give proper ejection. You can try wiggling it to make sure it operates smoothly, and try replacing the extractor & spring. We've had extraction problems with some lots of CCI in Benellis, but Aguila standard velocity works fine.
It sounds like the extractor isn't maintaining an adequate grip to give proper ejection. You can try wiggling it to make sure it operates smoothly, and try replacing the extractor & spring. We've had extraction problems with some lots of CCI in Benellis, but Aguila standard velocity works fine.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Hi
I did the Volquartzen trigger job on my wife's Rugger 22/45. Be aware that the trigger weight may fall below legal limit. Hers is around 700grams. Not really an issue as she shoots for fun and doesn't enter competitions.
Rick
I did the Volquartzen trigger job on my wife's Rugger 22/45. Be aware that the trigger weight may fall below legal limit. Hers is around 700grams. Not really an issue as she shoots for fun and doesn't enter competitions.
Rick
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
The only issue I can think of with manual safeties is if you have a malfunction - eg failure to fire due to the safety catching on - it would be non-allowable.
Re: Ruger Mark IV Target for 25 m Pistol (Sport Pistol)
Thanks to everyone for the replies.
1. I'll check the extractor. Also will talk with the factory.
2. If I put in the Volquartsen parts and the trigger weight turns out to be too low, is there any way to raise it to the minimum?
3. Tandemcross appears to be using many parts from Volquartsen. Not sure there's benefit to going this way.
Any other thoughts?
Stan
1. I'll check the extractor. Also will talk with the factory.
2. If I put in the Volquartsen parts and the trigger weight turns out to be too low, is there any way to raise it to the minimum?
3. Tandemcross appears to be using many parts from Volquartsen. Not sure there's benefit to going this way.
Any other thoughts?
Stan