electronic target

[Azmodan]

the electric target is composed of a white plate with a round hole in the middle where a black paper scrolls down for each shot. (never seen one up close)

my question is.. what happens when a shooter shoots a 5 or a 4? does the machine register the shot? is the white plate (dunno what is made of) scratch in time from missed shots?

thanx

[David Levene]

The white is actually card.

The position of the shot is still measure, whether by sound, laser, or other technology.

[SteveT]

Most electronic targets use sound to locate the shot. If the rounds will be sub-sonic (like nearly all precision pistol) they have that black plastic film so there is noise as the bullet hits the plastic. If the shot hits the paper it will (usually) make enough noise to trigger the electronics. If the shot is off the paper, it's gone and not detected. Some systems have microphones at the firing points to detect when each shooter fires and ties that to the target down range so it can detect cross fires and/or misses.

Between shots the film rolls down, so the center of the target has unbroken film and it is less likely for a shot to pass through the same hole and not make a sound. Shots in the white stay there to stare at you and declare your shame to the world. FWIW most systems have index marks so they can roll the film back up to the same position so they can manually measure the shot in the event of a challenge.

The cheap (<$1000) rifle targets depend on supersonic bullets, so they don't need the film.

[dronning]

Some systems measure location using IR and there are some that are hybrid both acoustic & IR
- Dave

[spektr]

I was under the impression that tbe electronic targets lacked consummables. Im looking at a home range with electronics, which way works for that, I dont mind paper, but seeing the shot on a screen is real belpfull

[David Levene]

I was under the impression that tbe electronic targets lacked consummables.

I think that all of the top systems use a card mask (the white bit) but some can be used without the black paper roll.

That's normally fine for home use but, IMHO, is unfair for use in competitions as it removes the opportunity for the athlete to challenge a score.

Providing that you don't put a shot in the white then you should only need to replace the mask when it starts to look dirty.

[dronning]

I was under the impression that tbe electronic targets lacked consummables. Im looking at a home range with electronics, which way works for that, I dont mind paper, but seeing the shot on a screen is real belpfull

I picked up a used SIUS HS10 Hybridscore. I use it with my laptop computer and now I have it set up so I can use my desktop with the big screen, very cool. No real consumables unless you count the masks. I went through about 1 a week when I started but now I rarely put a shot in the white(mask). You can patch them too. I also shoot air rifle and have the rifle masks too.

If you find a used one snap it up quick, they don't come up for sale very often. I was very lucky.
- Dave

https://sius.com/en/product/ls25-50-laserscore-13/

[Ramon OP]

I had a chance to test the new OptiScore target for air pistols and rifles: https://www.olympicpistol.com/sport-qua ... et-review/ It uses a transparent plastic screen that gets pumelled and has to be changed every 10k to 50k shots.The way it detects the shots is by the vibrations in that plastic. Shots are counted down to 0. The target can be moved around the screen to extend the life of the plastic panel. No paper consumables.

One thing I miss in Disag targets is the possibility to add some kind of backup target for those moments when a shot goes astray and you are sure it was good. It took me a while to be able to prove that my target was broken in a competition. Luckily they still use paper around the empty bullseye.

[Azmodan]

https://youtu.be/WR0nLnv37zQ snippet from an ISSF world cup where they actually show a SIUS target up close (and open it)

[SteveT]

Does anyone know how the Sius Laserscor works? The web sites I've seen only says "Measured with lasers". Are they using image sensors? Is there a ring of light sensors around the perimeter? It is laser interferometry?

[m1963]

I had a chance to test the new OptiScore target for air pistols and rifles: https://www.olympicpistol.com/sport-qua ... et-review/ It uses a transparent plastic screen that gets pumelled and has to be changed every 10k to 50k shots.The way it detects the shots is by the vibrations in that plastic. Shots are counted down to 0. The target can be moved around the screen to extend the life of the plastic panel. No paper consumables.

One thing I miss in Disag targets is the possibility to and some kind of backup target for those moments when a shot goes astray and you are sure it was good. It took me a while to be able to prove that my target was broken in a competition. Luckily they still use paper around the empty bullseye.

Thank you for the information on the Sport Quantum. It will be interesting to see, and shoot, on one in person. I agree that the SIUS has interface issues. Many of which we have solved (mainly regarding connectivity of the SIUS service.) The most frustrating issue remaining, though, is the occasional 0.0 being registered (about 1 in 500 shots) when the shooter clearly did not miss the bull. We think it has something to do with the way the pellet deflects off the backstop, and strikes the paper on the wrong side.

I had not seen a comment about interface issues with the Kongsberg targets. Can you describe what is going on, with those?

[Ramon OP]

They have a very complicated menu system. It is hard to find anything and you have to do a lot of clicks even if you know what you are doing.

When you change from a rapid fire target to a precision target sometimes the lights keep on working and you have to figure out where they are and how to remove them. Same thing can happen when going back to RFP target: no lights!

Menus are just called 1, 2 and 3.

It is hard to understand the reasoning behind the grouping of options in those menus.

When in rapid fire, each time you launch a new series you have to wait for a minute before shooting or it won't register the shots, but there's no indication nor timer in screen. When I'm training I don't want to have to wait do long.

I'm not sure about this happening in the precission setting, so I wait just in case. Adding uncertainty does not help with scores.

Even with a cheat sheet people need to have someone with them many times before they can use them by themselves, as long as nothing goes wrong and no setting has been changed.

There's no real size shot preview...

A book could be written.

I'll try to record a video for you.

[Ramon OP]

Here are the videos I recorded today at my range to show you the interfaces of the electronic targets (sorry it took me so long) :

* Kongsberg Target Systems https://youtu.be/PNBSvOjNYcw
* Disag OptiScore https://youtu.be/D0lFXO8d780

The Disag target is mostly in French, but you'll see they forgot to translate some of the text from German. They could improve a lot the interface by having just two choices at the begining : pistol or riffle.

[dronning]

Does anyone know how the Sius Laserscor works? The web sites I've seen only says "Measured with lasers". Are they using image sensors? Is there a ring of light sensors around the perimeter? It is laser interferometry?

3 lasers triangulate the projectile.
- Dave

[SteveT]

3 lasers triangulate the projectile.

I read that in the Sius literature. My question is how do they do that?

A laser is just a fancy lightbulb. They don't measure anything. They are output only. How does laserscore measure the position? What is the detection method?

The most obvious method is to shine the laser across the field of the target and use a row of detectors on the opposite side. When a bullet passes through, it's shadow falls on some of the detectors. This is similar to a "light curtain" detector in industrial controls. The difficulty is you need a lot of fast sensors to cover a 4.7mm pellet in a 25cm window. If this is what they are doing, I am curious if they are using lenses with a line detector? a CIS sensor found in scanners? discrete photodiodes? or something else? This would be easier using a non-laser light source, so is that just marketing hyperbole? or is the laser giving them something I haven't though about? Are they scanning the laser across the window? spinning a mirror? or using a lens to de-collimate the laser?

Using the light curtain method, it would make sense to use 4 light sources and have a row of detectors on each side of the opening. Are they using a triangle of detectors? or a circle?

Laser distance measurement is done by switching a laser on and off, shining on a surface and using a light detecter to find the "time of flight" it takes for the light to hit the target and bounce back to the detector next to the laser. Alternatively you can modulate the laser and measure the phase shift. In theory this is possible by sweeping the laser across the window and detecting the angles at which the detector senses a change in the distance (when a bullet is passing through), but the sensors I've found are not fast enough unless they are doing something really clever. If they are, I want to know.

You could use the lasers to highlight the bullet and high speed camera to take pictures, but that takes a lot of expensive equipment. If they have found an inexpensive imaging system capable of this, I want to know.

Or maybe the're doing something completely different. Enquiring minds want to know.

[Modena]

SIUS is not a "curtain" of lights, but Meyton is.

have a look here for how Meyton works;
https://www.shootingstuff.co.nz/meyton- ... c-targets/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroni ... angulation

[SlartyBartFast]

I read that in the Sius literature. My question is how do they do that?

A version of interferometry?
Probably more like a laser range finder.

[Voskhod02]

And would these electronic targets be appropriate for indoors use, to practice air pistol shooting at 10 meters? Because my wife and I are planning to move abroad, we were checking out apartments for sale in France since we need to be in a city for professionnal reasons (I work either at home or do business trips, but my wife's a dentist). This means that I won't be able to practice in the yard as I used to do, and I was then thinking about practicing inside. Is it possible, or is it a pipe dream? Fortunately enough, I have enough practice to make sure I don't put a pellet through the TV or wine glasses, so I'm allowed to shoot inside!

[David Levene]

And would these electronic targets be appropriate for indoors use, to practice air pistol shooting at 10 meters?

10m electronic scoring targets (ESTs) are normally installed indoors.

[Voskhod02]

Okay, great, thanks! That's what I figured, but there still is a difference between "sports complex" inside and "your house" inside, so I wanted to ask first.