SCATT data interpretation & usage links

[rmarsh]

Lester...

First, thanks to Joel for the kind words! Maybe I will do the SCATT clinic again sometime. I need to spend time learning the new software. With my daughter in college now, I don’t get much opportunity to work with scatt.

I thought I answered your question yesterday about the sound delay. Apparently my reply didn’t post. No, I don’t know of a way to adjust it. I never noticed because I never turn the volume up. Just let the click be your “bang”.

Joel makes some very good points about using scatt. I particularly like where he talks about scatt being a real time coaching tool. It is very valuable for a coach to be watching and even making corrections in real time as the shot developes. Looking at scatt files after the fact is useful, but not nearly as good as being there during the training session.

[ptf18]

Fellows. Thank you all for offering the support that you have given. I'm finding that I am not so hesitant to "adjust" the (default ?) settings on my Scatt....even if Im uncertain of the outcome.

Question. This evening I "shot" 3 10 round strings (offhand) onto a blank (no bull) target. I "think" I read (elsewhere ?) that doing so would get one more "interested" in ones hold rather than shooting the x-ring.

Well... it appears that my yellow and blue trace produces a smaller.... group (?). Maybe I should say that the yellow and blue traces are closer together than when I was "aiming" at a bull.

The issue I have is that being that the "target" is blank my (individual) shot trace can be all over the target shown on my laptop screen. In some cases waaaay off the target screen (the "statistics" still appear). Is there a "electronic" means to "adjust' the shot trace so that it appears over the bull? I'm of the understanding that one shouldn't use the Scatt as a "electronic scoring" tool rather to be more interested in ones trace. BUT if the trace for the shot is waaaay off it doesn't show up on my laptop.

Also. I must have "fooled" with some setting as I am not now apply to save my 10 round strings. I was able to save strings last night. Is there a setting I should be checking to save my strings?

Thanks all,
Lester

[KH250]

ptf18

I occasionally get a delay between the click and the bang on the scatt, I have always assumed the computer was a bit busy at the time of shot release.

The most recent posts questions, suggest you may not be familiar with the adjustment of some of the basic settings of the scatt and you may not have electronically adjusted the point of impact at the start of the match you are shooting. Also the initial setup configures the distance you are from the target. In your case 5.5 metres.


If you are using a target with scoring rings going from 10 to1, if you type the number of the scoring ring you want to display the display will zoom in or out to the match. Type one and the whole target is displayed and 9 will zoom in to display the 9 ring. When using the blank target you may need to zoom out too display your trace.

You can drag the last shot fired to the middle of the target to fine tune the point of impact. Just click on the last shot, holding down the mouse button and drag it up or down or left and right and let the mouse button go when you get to the appropriate place.

After you have shot the match you can use the Shot parameters drop down box the coincide grouping with the centre of the target.

I use the back of a target to focus on a quality sight picture that does not get disturbed by using the trigger. You should be able to get a very good group without the distraction of a black scoring area above or behind your sights.

If I have misread you knowledge about the basic adjustments I apologize.

[KH250]

Some of the matches on the scatt automatically go the calibration screen at the start of the match and some you have to use the f2 button to bring up the calibration screen. If you do not calibrate the sensor, the point of impact can be a long way from the centre of the target. Also this screen sets the sensor to target distance at the same time. If you change the distance to the target you need to redo the calibration so the scatt can remeasure the distance. The Piezo sensitivity adjustment may need to be adjusted to suit your pistol. My electronic Steyr is set for 1.5 and my Lp50 is set for 39.
If you already know all of this then ignore the post.
My experience with the scatt has been very positive. For the way I practice it was worth every cent. It has shown me triggering errors that are I was unaware I was making. And has improved every aspect of my shooting.
Being able to load an Olympic champions data, has shown me what I need to improve, to get even better.

[KH250]

ptf18

If you shoot ten sighting shots, yellow corner in the top right corner of the target, and no match shots you cannot save the group.
You need to start firing match shots before you can save the result.
This is the only thing I can think of that would stop you saving the ten shot group.

[ptf18]

KH250. Thank you for your input. This is all new to me, but so far I am enjoying the use of my Scatt even though I'm stumbling thru the learning process. Not so much the "shooting" aspect as it is learning the "controls" of the machine so as to get the most out of this trainer.

You mentioned, "The Piezo sensitivity adjustment may need to be adjusted to suit your pistol. My electronic Steyr is set for 1.5 and my Lp50 is set for 39."

How do you determain where this setting should be? I moved it up and down the scale when I initially set the calibration but in the end set put the adjustment back to where it was when I first turned the Scatt on.

Also, I am using my Scatt on a rifle. Does it matter where the sensor is installed on the barrel? Should it be at the very muzzle end? Or a certain distance from the muzzle? Or as far away from the muzzle?

My sensor is attached to the barrel with the standard fixture that is supplied in the Scatt USB kit. I found that I needed to "shim" the attaching bracket in order to get the calibration shot (POI) into the center of the calibration circle. I secured my rifle into a bench rest when I was doing the calibration, probably waaaay overboard but it made me feel good. :)

Would you suggest I purchase the sensor mount that Scatt manufactures which is inserted into the bore of the gun? I would like to use the Scatt on other firearms and I am thinking this "insertable" mount would be easier to allow me to do such a swap.

Thank you.

Lester

[rtucker6508]

This thread is awesome. Thank you to all of you.

[KH250]

The scatt uses the noise or vibration from the firing mechanism being released to register the shot. One the Steyr LP10e it is a small solenoid. To register the solenoid it needs to be set down around 1.5 to 2. If set higher it does not register reliably. Using the mechanical Steyr the dry fire mechanism makes much more noise and a higher setting is fine. The LP50 is a five shot pistol and if the sensitivity is set at a low a number it registers shots that are not fired from the indexing of the magazine. This only happens when shooting military rapid fire when the course of fire is a 10 second five shot series. If the Piezo sensitivity is set too low you may get false shots from things like re-cocking the firearm or closing the bolt or even nocking the firearm on something. If it is reliable at a higher number leave it there. Re-cocking the pistol or rifle while the scatt is not pointing anywhere near the target will not register a shot.

I mount my scat where it is convenient, on my LP10 it is on the side of the pistol sitting at 90 degrees to the barrel just in front of the trigger. The 32 uses a barrel mount so it hangs out the end. My MG4 mounts on the side of the pistol at the front. It is a good idea to mount it in a position where it is protected. It is very easy to bash it when it is hanging out of the end of the barrel. My free pistol is mounted on the barrel using a mount designed to fit around a narrow barrel and is as close to the action as I can get it. It makes no difference if it is on the front or further back to how the scatt works. I use 5 different mounting methods for my various pistols. I would not use the barrel mount if I could mount another way. I just don't like sticking anything into the muzzle end of the barrel. The bit that goes into the barrel is made out of brass, but nocking it and twisting it inside the barrel while tightened up worries me.

When calibrating you do not need to get the shot in the centre of the circle, just within the circle it draws inside the white area. It electronically adjusts the point of impact to be in the centre of the target.

[jhmartin]

Re call in center of circle...
Your calibration shot is where scatt says is the center.... i.e. 10.9.

On any electronic system realize that you are shooting to where the system thinks 10.9 is
.. not the center of the black.
So once you get it in the area & caibrate it you are good to go.

I think you need to have some reference to aim to.
The system is too sensitive/accurate not to.
In the new version there is a center the shot feature... I've never used it

[KH250]

"I think you need to have some reference to aim to."

I am a ISSF pistol shooter, when I use a precision 25 metre target the black blob is just part of the overall sight picture. I suppose the black area is being referenced to by me even if it is above or behind the sights. But when I use a 25 meter R/F electronic target there are no markings on the target to reference to other than the silly horizontal lines. I do not use these lines at all. I centre the pistol in the middle of the black because I naturally find the middle of the black. I guess it could be said, I am referencing the outer edge of the black or maybe the edge of the target to find the middle. My groups when precision shooting do not change much at all when shooting on the R/F target.

I am not a rifle shooter and I assume the lack of a black blob to put in the middle of the sights may make it a bit difficult to shoot a group on the back of a target. But I have found as a pistol shooter the black blob in the middle of the target is not all that important. Training on the back of a target is very useful at times.

In the new version there is a center the shot feature... I've never used it

I am not sure what the new version is. I am using ver 6.83.13 for a scatt usb system. Maybe the scatt basic or expert has some different features.
I am not too worried about getting my group exactly in the middle of the target on the scatt. Re-sighting in every time is just waste of time. The trace length, speed, trigger control among other things are more important. The only downside to a non centred group is the 10 ring % is not accurate. I can always re-centre the group at the end of the match to get a pretty picture. Also it gives me a better score, not that the score matters.

[ptf18]

Fellows. I attempted to get a screen shot of one of my "shots" as I have a question about the trace. I couldn't figure out how to do that so I used PAINT to make a quick drawing and attached it to this post.

I fired a final 10 round string tonite and "observed" something that seems "odd" to me, the newbie. On 7-8 of the shot traces (you will see what I mean on my attached drawing) the trace turns from yellow to blue, the shot is indicated by a little gray dot and then the trace turns red (follow thru). What you will notice (and what I see on several of my shot traces) is that right after the shot is "fired" (gray dot) the trace makes an abrupt turn at the same time it turns red.

This "oddity" is not on ALL the shots but 7-8 of them. Where the path of the trace makes an abrupt turn right after the shot.

I'm thinking this abrupt turn is telling me I'm jerking the trigger, or twitching the trigger. Its obvious I'm inducing something to make the trace turn so sharply after the shot.

Thoughts?

Also. I reread the postings on setting the "F" function. I think I have mine on 10 but I would like your input being that I'm using my Scatt on a AR with a 20" barrel . Velocity of my cartridges is around 2750 fps.

Thanks Fellows.

[ilionkid]

This is probably the best resource to explain what's going on in Scatt. Tricia van Nus' manual http://www.coachexcellence.net/wp-cont ... -SCATT.pdf

Mike

[pfiori]

Yes, that is telling you something. If you look at the trace speed values for those shots, you will probably see the blue line speed is higher than the yellow line speed. This tells you that the gun is accelerating as you are triggering, usually from jerking or snapping at the trigger but can also come from other things like tensing muscles, flinching, changing the trigger hand grip as you are triggering etc.
The point about Scatt being a "real time" training tool has been made above and this is an example of why. You will never remember what you did and felt on that shot later or tomorrow but looking at the trace and numbers immediately after the shot gives you the opportunity to correlate things and figure out where the movement is coming from or what effect a change has had on your movement.
The pattern of the trace line tells you alot about your position and hold. For example, when you have straight lines, particularly horizontal ones that abruptly change direction as you have depicted in your illustration, usually indicates a lot of muscle is being used in the position.
There are good examples of what a good trace should look like in the information files of the system.
As for the F coefficient, it really does not tell you anything important, the useful information is in the numerical data.

[KH250]

Straight lines are usually not good at the time of release. Attached example of a poor shot release. X-ring to 7 ring and back to the ten ring in no time at all. First picture better trigger release but still trace changed direction at point of release. Both R/F pistol, 3 seconds to fire the shot.

[ptf18]

Fellows. Can't tell you all how much I appreciate your input. I do believe that this (Scatt) "investment" will be a great tool for me.

KH250... You mention that straight lines are not usually good at the time of release. Should I assume then that the yellow line then followed by the blue line should be making a (smallish ) circular trace (hopefully) atop of the X?

A little history. Most of my range time the past couple years have been spent "practicing" offhand shooting with my AR. I did/do "ball and dumby" drills which if you are not familiar with the term (for me) is comprised of "firing 5 live rounds and 5 dumby rounds. I mix the 10 rounds together in my shooting coat pocket and randomly draw them out (w/o looking), chamber and then fire them.

What I have observed is that on occasion (perhaps more often than not) I will...what I call.... launch the round when I get that "perfect" sight picture. Its as if I'm "firing" a torpedo. As if you were watching an old WWII submarine movie when they "fired" a torpedo. The torpedoman smacks the launch button just after the Captain spots the enemy ship in the crosshairs of the periscope.

With a dumby round I really see this action as the muzzle usually dips down (not up). With a live round not so much.

I've tried my darnest to "cure" this issue but not know what causes it I'm not certain what to do to "fix" it.

Yesterday I tried 2 "new" things on the Scatt. I used my A2 rifle (open/metal sights) instead of my scope equipt rifle. I was thinking that the use of optics is causing me to try to hard (longer time) "perfecting" the sight picture. The result was a bit of a reduction in the "abrupt" turn of the yellow to blue trace when I used my A2.

BUT... the 2nd "new" thing I tried was getting into position, aligning the rifle up with the target as best I could and "firing" the gun ...with my eyes closed. I wasn't concerned about where the trace pattern ended up on the target. Instead I saw that this "abrupt" turn issue was only on 3 maybe 4 of the shots.

I only shot one 10 round string as I had other activities to go do but what is your thought on this "shooting with eyes closed" telling me....if anything? Not that I would do it for real.

Once agian thanks for your input.

[jscot111]

I,m considering getting a Scatt. Does the Basic work well or should I get a USB version ?
Thanks Scott

[overlookh]

I got the basic version about 6 months ago.
I have not used other versions.

I'm using it indoor at my house and I'm very happy to do it.

Pro:
Ready to use in 2 minute.
Accurate.
Cheap.


Cons:
The first setup was a bit difficult, but when I figured out how to dispose the light there were no more problems.
The basic version software is very "basic".

[KH250]

ptf18

As a pistol shooter I realise that the pistol never stops moving. The best I can do is squeeze the trigger progressively when the pistol is in the correct area, not spot. The ideal result for me is to have the before and after scatt trace to be on top of each other. Pictures attached 3rd and 4th picture.
I travelled 271 mm in the last second, the 10 ring is 50 mm across. All I can hope for is to shoot into my hold, I cannot pick the perfect time when the pistol is in the x-ring to release the shot. With perception time and reaction time I will be somewhere else by the time the shot is actually released.
I crossed into and out of the x-ring 5 or 6 times in the last second.
I shoot with a one handed unsupported hold with a 1100 gram pistol with a 1 kg trigger. Any changes in grip tension when I use the trigger usually disturbs the sights.
I work to improve my stability and stillness. As this improves my hold size shrinks and scores go up.
Closing your eyes most probably helps you because you are not focused on the target and can focus more on better trigger control.
First 2 pictures Olympic level air pistol shooter even with a sub 10 ring hold in the last second they moved 92mm.
Third and forth pictures of a 25 metre target I shot showing what I want to achieve. Shot inside the hold with the follow through over the top of the pre shot release trace. Notice the speed of the trace in the last 250ms, it was not higher than the 1 second speed. I want the speed to stay the same all the way up to the shot release.

[ptf18]

I,m considering getting a Scatt. Does the Basic work well or should I get a USB version ?
Thanks Scott

Scott.....As you can tell I'm new to the Scatt Trainer. Fellow shooters (NRA/CMP XTC mostly) I know have them... and swear by them. I won't go into the the reasons (practicing reasons) why I purchased one but I .... went big or stayed home. I purchased the USB unit. Granted its several hundred dollars more than the basic but the USB model offers stuff (I think it does anyway) that the Basic doesn't....not certain if I'll be utilizing the other stuff... maybe in time. A BIG reason that I got the USB mode was that some day its going to be sold and hopefully the sale will reclaim a good portion of what it cost me. From what I currently see the "used" market for the USB model has been and continues to be "hot". They do sell pretty quick.

[ptf18]

KH250. Thank you for posting ...and explaining your traces. I better understand the trace(s) movement AND how the trace speed factor comes into effect.

I've been "switching up" various items the past couple of shooting sessions. Probably not a good idea but I'm looking to see if any of the items I "switch up" make MAJOR changes in the results.

It seems that "things" (which I make/take note of) do effect the trace (direction, shape, etc) as well as the time/speed factor.

All and All I'm 'enjoying" using this new "tool".