Pardini Questions and Answers

[Gwhite]

You said you had "feed issues". Which round in the magazine misfeeds, and what is the nature of the misfeed? If it occurs with both magazines, it may be something else.

A friend of mine had feeding problems from a broken firing pin. It had snapped inside the bolt, but when the back half hit the front half, it would shoot fine. The problem was that the spring that holds the firing pin back could only hold the back half to the rear. Sometimes the front part would stick out of the bolt face far enough to prevent the next round from sliding up the bolt face, and it would misfeed.

[JFuller]

The problem wasn't with feeding any particular round, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or last, it even was difficult to load the mags if they hadn't been thoroughly cleaned.
With ammunition close to 1.000" problems soon occur, shorter, closer to 0.950" would shoot longer before having to clean the mags, heavily lubed rounds jammed in the mag instantly. BTW, firing pin is good, thanks. John.

[Gwhite]

What ammo are you using, and what vintage of pistol/magazine? I've never had a problem with my 2008 vintage SP New, but my wife's older SP (2004 vintage?) had issues with CCI. A local gunsmith flattened the bump at the top rear of one of her magazines to help with that. If you think that might help, I can dig out her magazines & I can take pictures of what was done.

She's been shooting Eley Sport (the older version actually made by Aguila) for many years, and hasn't had any problems with two unmodified magazines.

It sounds like another issue with the ammo you are using is how quickly it gums up the magazines. There's quite a variation between brands of ammo, and I try to steer clear of excessively greasy ammo. I got some Russian stuff many years ago that had a very greasy lubricant. As best I could tell, they dipped the entire round in the stuff, not just the bullets. The lube got all over everything...

One practice that can also cause a quick buildup of gunk is oiling your ammo. Some people recommend adding a drop of oil to the top round of every magazine as a cure for all sorts of cycling/jamming problems. It might work to get you through a match, but I view it as a band-aid that masks the real underlying problem(s). It also attracts fouling and means you will need to clean your magazines a lot more often.

[JFuller]

GWhite,
Pretty well everything works when the mag is cleaned, CCI SV, Fiocchi & RWS are fine for several hundred rounds, I have miked the first rounds to give problems and found that they are always the longest ones, kinda points to needing the "bump" at the back of the mag flattened doesn't it.

Pictures of your wifes mag should certainly help, also the dimensions.

When I clean a malfunctioning mag with Hoppes 9 and q tips the q tips don't even change colour, thats how finicky this is.

Not sure of the vintage of this SP, it has the cast ribs on both sides so is newer than the one in the photo but old enough not to have an adjustment screw for the 1st stage trigger weight, I never got an answer from Pardini for it's age, serial # B237* Anyone?

John.

[Gerard]

Something else to consider is that the older a magazine gets, the greater the chance that the feed lips have become stretched out by the constant pressure under them, causing rounds to angle upwards too steeply before they're stripped off. Some very gentle pressure to bring the two lips slightly closer together might resolve feeding issues. This can be a very fussy business, so go gently. You don't want to get into a back and forth bending cycle trying to chase down just the right amount of clearance, as significant distortion of the metal away from original geometry will be almost impossible to repair for a non-gunsmith.

[Gwhite]

The feed lips on the Pardini magazines aren't nearly as critical as on some pistols. The only part that is really under pressure is at the rear, where it's pretty well reinforced. I've never had to tweak the feeds lips on one, and I have 7 Pardini SPs to keep running smoothly; mine, my wife's and 5 for the college team I help coach.

That said, I've seen several new magazines where there are serious burrs from manufacturing that can cause problems. The places that are a potential issue are the inside edges of the forward feed lips, and the edges of the follower button slot. A light stoning will take care of the former, and just cycling the follower up & down 20 times will smooth out the slot considerably.

[Gwhite]

GWhite,
Pretty well everything works when the mag is cleaned, CCI SV, Fiocchi & RWS are fine for several hundred rounds, I have miked the first rounds to give problems and found that they are always the longest ones, kinda points to needing the "bump" at the back of the mag flattened doesn't it.

Pictures of your wifes mag should certainly help, also the dimensions.

When I clean a malfunctioning mag with Hoppes 9 and q tips the q tips don't even change colour, thats how finicky this is.

Not sure of the vintage of this SP, it has the cast ribs on both sides so is newer than the one in the photo but old enough not to have an adjustment screw for the 1st stage trigger weight, I never got an answer from Pardini for it's age, serial # B237* Anyone?

John.

I took some magazine pictures. In the process, I discovered that the modified magazine is actually for my SP New, and all of my wife's SP (old) magazines are unaltered. Her pistol was bought in 2002, and it has the cast ribs AND the 1st stage weight adjustment, so yours is at least a little older than that. Her are what her magazines look like:

My Pardini is a 2008 vintage SP New, and the magazines are slightly different. Here are what mine look like, including the flattened one:

I've shot CCI and Aguila Subsonic in this pistol quite a bit, and never had any issues with feeding. I've never noticed any difference between the flattened one or the regular variety. I hardly ever clean my magazines other than swabbing out the fronts while holding the follower down.

[-TT-]

Looks like those "SP New" mags have a bit of a feed-ramp at the front of the magazine too. This would make them perhaps a bit less fussy about the round tipping up to clear the edge, although it doesn't look possible to modify the older ones like that. Maybe simply taking off a bit of material at the front, or rounding the inside edge?

[Gwhite]

There is a ramp on the old magazines, it's just shorter. The biggest visible difference between the old & new magazines is they extended that feed ramp a bit on the newer ones. To make that work, they also had to cut the channel in the frame at the front of the magazine well deeper. The difference isn't huge, and I suspect you might be able to get most of the same benefit by carefully filling the extended ramp down on a new magazine just enough to fit in the older magazine well.

I haven't studied it carefully, but I think there may be a bit more of a radius at the bottom of the chamber on the newer pistols, and I seem to recall hearing of a gunsmith that has increased that radius a bit on some SP's to help feeding. My wife's older SP has never had a feeding problem, so I haven't investigated that option. As a matter of fact, I've never seen a feeding issue on any of the SP's I've dealt with. It's always jams with trapped brass & other extraction issues.

[-TT-]

Makes sense. Just observing that because the OP found that the longer rounds showed the issue more often, that the front of the mag may be involved too.

[JFuller]

[quote="Gwhite"]There is a ramp on the old magazines, it's just shorter. The biggest visible difference between the old & new magazines is they extended that feed ramp a bit on the newer ones. To make that work, they also had to cut the channel in the frame at the front of the magazine well deeper. The difference isn't huge, and I suspect you might be able to get most of the same benefit by carefully filling the extended ramp down on a new magazine [u]just[/u] enough to fit in the older magazine well.

I haven't studied it carefully, but I think there may be a bit more of a radius at the bottom of the chamber on the newer pistols, and I seem to recall hearing of a gunsmith that has increased that radius a bit on some SP's to help feeding. My wife's older SP has never had a feeding problem, so I haven't investigated that option. As a matter of fact, I've never seen a feeding issue on any of the SP's I've dealt with. It's always jams with trapped brass & other extraction issues.[/quote]




Could I get you to measure the inside distance from the back to the front inside both mags, modified & unmodified.

You will probably have to use a vernier caliper to reach below the feed ramp while holding the follower down against the spring.

I'm expecting something like 1.005" and then 1.050" with the rear "bump" flattened.

Thanks

[Gwhite]

I'm not sure how well that will work, but I can try. I don't know if the gunsmith used a special punch, or just flattened it with a regular large punch. Whatever he used didn't flatten out the whole bump. It's pretty much totally flat at the top, but there's a bit of a residual bump left down lower. You can see the indentation remaining in the photo from the back. Basically, the measurement will vary depending on how deep I can get the caliper.

[JFuller]

If you could also measure the width(s) of both mags nr the "bumps" curious how flattening the bump widens the mag.

[quote="Gwhite"]I'm not sure how well that will work, but I can try. I don't know if the gunsmith used a special punch, or just flattened it with a regular large punch. Whatever he used didn't flatten out the whole bump. It's pretty much totally flat at the top, but there's a bit of a residual bump left down lower. You can see the indentation remaining in the photo from the back. Basically, the measurement will vary depending on how deep I can get the caliper.[/quote]

[Gwhite]

I measured two unmodified magazines (one is brand new), and the one that had the bump flattened.

The width at the back on all three was 12.00 mm, so the flattening process doesn't appreciably spread the magazine.

The distance from the back of the magazine to the front of the bump on the unmodified magazines was 1.80 mm. The distance from the back of the magazine to the front of the residual bump below where it got flattened is 1.24 mm. For reference, the metal is 0.81 mm thick.

All of the measurements are within ~ +/- 0.01 mm.

I have used both the modified and the unmodified magazine interchangeably with a variety of ammo for 6 or 7 years. I've never had any issues with either of them, including with CCI, which is what the modification was primarily supposed to help with. This is all in an SP New of 2008 vintage. I have a total of three unmodified magazines, and I have no plans to flatten any of them.

One thing about CCI: I don't think the bullets are that much longer than European ammo, but the relatively hard wax lubricant appears to be applied by dipping, and then is allowed to harden with the bullet pointed down. The amount of excess wax on the end of the bullet can vary considerably. I know some shooters who wipe the ends of the bullets with a towel in the belief that it helps avoid jams. Again, I've never found that necessary.

[Gerard]

I've got a full seal kit on the way to me from the Canadian rep for Pardini. Sure would be nice to see a basic tear-down video for the K12, a really simple how-to for replacing all the seals in that pistol. I've got the blow-up diagram in the manual, but that's really not very helpful. You'd think with a service kit costing over $100, Pardini might be inclined to provide at least some simple set of instructions on how to get into the trickier areas of the pistol. Mine's been leaking out of both cylinders for many months now - about 5 to 6 years after manufacture - and it's obvious looking at the main cylinder seals that they are flattened from long use. I can hear a tiny bubbling sound from the fill end after filling, and though smaller still when mounted to the pistol the leak is still audible. The owner of Western Marksman tells me he replaces the seals on his K12 about once a year, just to be safe. I'm not sure whether he means he does it himself or sends it in for service somewhere, as he's not very mechanically inclined with air pistols. In any case, just asking the void... realizing that the Pardini rep here probably hasn't looked at this thread in years.

[Heddok]

I've got a full seal kit on the way to me from the Canadian rep for Pardini. Sure would be nice to see a basic tear-down video for the K12, a really simple how-to for replacing all the seals in that pistol. I've got the blow-up diagram in the manual, but that's really not very helpful. You'd think with a service kit costing over $100, Pardini might be inclined to provide at least some simple set of instructions on how to get into the trickier areas of the pistol. Mine's been leaking out of both cylinders for many months now - about 5 to 6 years after manufacture - and it's obvious looking at the main cylinder seals that they are flattened from long use. I can hear a tiny bubbling sound from the fill end after filling, and though smaller still when mounted to the pistol the leak is still audible. The owner of Western Marksman tells me he replaces the seals on his K12 about once a year, just to be safe. I'm not sure whether he means he does it himself or sends it in for service somewhere, as he's not very mechanically inclined with air pistols. In any case, just asking the void... realizing that the Pardini rep here probably hasn't looked at this thread in years.

Gerard
Now you have me worried, my K12 is 4 years old and has about 25,000 pellets through it. Seems okay at the moment but I always assumed a reseal wouldn't be that onerous.

Was John B. being serious when he said he did his yearly???

Brad

[Gerard]

I'm sorry! I misspoke. It wasn't John B, but rather Alexander Chichkov of Pardini USA writing back to me about seals who said that he changes his K12 seals so often:

"Generally speaking, after around 1 year of use, I replace the seals on my pistol to be safe, but I do use it pretty often."

He goes on in the next paragraph to say "... I would recommend replacing the seals at least 3 years as you think yourself."

My apologies for crossing wires. I'm old. Well, just about 58, but the brain isn't getting any sharper with aging.

[Heddok]

Gerard
Two things
first- 58 isn't old........... I may have thought it was old when I was a young punk listening to that new band "Led Zeppelin" but now I know first hand 58 ain't old.

second- could you please post how it goes on your K12, I'm going to have to do it myself one day

Thanks
Brad

[Gerard]

Well thanks for the encouragement. I'd probably feel a lot less old if I could afford dental work... dang rotten mess in my mouth and I'll have to earn a heck of a lot more than I do to afford all the work that's needed to restore a healthy set of chompers. Otherwise I'm in great health (shoulder injury aside) so no real worries there, and I walk a lot, eat well, sleep well...

I'll certainly share what I can of the experience. Document anything which seems especially tricky and post pictures in case those will prove useful to others. Here's a picture of the complete K12 seal kit which has a list price around $100 and arrived in the mail today:

[Gerard]

Okay, finding a bit of time this evening to attend to my leaky K12 cylinders. First thing is to disassemble. In a former life I was a bicycle mechanic, so I still have my tools, and that's handy as one needs some sort of decently strong pin tool to take the end plugs out of the tube. I have 2-pin tools made by Park, Hazet, and Sugino, and found the Park to be the most useful for getting the tightly closed plug threads started. It's basically a bent piece of tool steel rod with the ends bent 90 degrees, a springy sort of tweezers-like thing where the pins at the bends drop into the holes in the black anodized aluminum plugs. I put my thick leather soft jaws on the 4" Record vise to secure the tube for this, not wanting to slip and scar the surfaces or the edges of the holes. The leather soft jaws were also very useful for unscrewing the pressure gauge end cap on the cylinder front, as that's a very thin piece of aluminum which could easily be bent and made useless. Gentle pressure with firm leather in the vise immobilized that while the Pardini hex wrench (Torx wrench I guess) got the bolt out of the middle. Without holding this cap firmly, it'll just spin with the bolt. Of course all this was done after making sure the cylinder was empty with the degassing tool!

Inside I found traces of a light, clear oil, very little, which cleaned out easily with a cloth. The big O-rings around either end's plug were obviously slightly compressed and felt stiffer than the new ones. Took those out with a sharp sewing needle, cleaned the channels, smeared in a coat of Parker O-ring Lube (green, snotty stuff), then put in the new rings.

The leather vise jaws again come in handy for removing the rear fill plug which is stainless steel. Also a large slot screwdriver. I have a big antique one which I ground to just fit easily into the threaded hole without damaging the threads, and also polished those ground edges after filing the corners of the tool round. Clamping the plug threads firmly into the leather-jawed vise I had no trouble breaking this plug free. Underneath it I was startled to see what at first looked like some stray blue Loc-tite. But that turned out to be a delaminated top layer of the blue plastic O-ring which lives under the stainless fill plug. The stuff feels like nylon, most similar in texture and appearance to the levers one uses for prying off bicycle tires. There's a cupped groove at the tip of the steel plug to match this ring. I put this stuff aside after cleaning then moved on to the other end with the long projecting tube which is part of the same aluminum plug. In the second picture below you can see also the old large O-rings. Hard to photograph, but they show a permanent bevel at the edge and the outer surface is flattened considerably, so in cross-section they are no longer round. Putting the new rings back into the cylinder provided significant resistance, where dismantling it was as if the rubber rings were not there, just easy aluminum on aluminum thread turning.





Pulling out the restraining cross-pin is easy with fingers. The spring beneath has very little tension on it - inserting it later I used a 5mm Allen key tip to push down the spring then slid the pin across the first winding of the spring. A smaller punch served to push down the other half of the spring for completing insertion. The spring and the steel valve poppet seal beneath looked fine, no rubber nor plastic seals here, just steel meeting with a rather sharp conical turned end at the bottom of the tubular projection. Cleaned out inside with a tissue and lightly lubed with the Parker's. I put in the new blue ring, covering it in 3M 111 silicone O-ring grease, as it seems it would be well served with a stubborn sort of silicone which doesn't come off at all without a lot of rubbing. Should maybe protect the plastic from whatever was causing it to come apart - perhaps an oxidation reaction? Silicone grease coating it might help a bit anyway, and can't hurt a plastic.

Putting all this back together and coating the major O-ring with the 111 it was ready to screw back in. After getting this back end plug done, I turned to cleaning the front end. I found under bright light that there were traces of orange rust under the heavy duty spring which acts to provide pressure readings via a plunger action much like a regulator. I ran a thin piece of cheesecloth all along this long spring, right into the core, with some white lithium grease in the cloth to coat the inner surface of the spring while wiping away any fine rust particles. Didn't want to use solvent... as one doesn't really want potentially explosive and aggressively solvent-acting substances inside a sealed pressure vessel. Wiped that spring down with a clean cloth leaving just a thin film of the Campagnolo lithium grease on the steel - I doubt it's enough of this oil-bearing grease to present a hazard, but will protect the spring steel from rust, where silicone greases tend to allow steel to continue rusting with trapped moisture in the rust itself. I could have taken off the two tiny hex nuts on the pressure gauge rod and cleaned beneath the spring more thoroughly of course... but I really doubt I'd ever be able to set it up again accurately, so the cylinder readings would be off and that would be annoying. So far it has always matched up with the gauge on my FX pump, which is reassuring.

Putting this plug back together after coating the new major O-ring with 111 (Parker beneath it) the assembly was complete. Put it on my FX pump and started work... got up to 500psi and left it there for a minute, listening, but no leak so continued up to 1,000psi and left it there for 5 minutes. No leak, so continued. I generally only fill my cylinders to 200bar these days. more shots before filling might be more fun, but as I intend to keep using these cylinders well beyond their best-before date (I'm not going to attempt to do that in competition, as I understand the rule, but I don't compete any more) and understand a bit about fatigue cycles in aluminum. The lower max pressure should radically increase the service life, my guess would be about 30 years as a safe bet. There is zero evidence of corrosion on the inside surfaces (except for that gauge spring) so the cylinder and plugs are in pretty much factory new condition.

No time to go into the pistol body to replace seals tonight. I doubt it's leaking anywhere, but will see in the coming days. As soon as I find more time I'll do that chore, then share anything interesting with the crew here. I'd share more pictures and even a video... but nobody around my house wants to hold a camera and it would just be too much of a chore in addition to doing the job itself.

----------------------------------------------

To update; more than 12 hours after filling there has been zero pressure drop on the two cylinders. So a fairly straightforward task, changing out the seals. I guess so long as one doesn't introduce dust of any sort while cleaning the various parts thoroughly, there's really nothing to mess up. An adjustable wrench to hold a plier-type pin tool is helpful when an end plug is stubborn, as was the case with the front plug on the second cylinder I worked on, holding the wrench up against the plug while putting inwards pressure on the pin pliers so they wouldn't slip. The second one had zero rust in its gauge spring but was otherwise identical, including the breakdown of the blue fill nipple ring with a small amount of plastic coming off as thin slivers.