I have heard that the official date for changeover from 22 short to 22 lr in the rapid fire event is on Jan 1, 2005........does that mean that all rapid fire events in 2004 (including Olympics) will only be using 22 short??? thanks
race1911-at-telus.net.44484.0
rapid fire change in cartridge
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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David Levene
Re: rapid fire change in cartridge
: I have heard that the official date for changeover from 22 short to 22 lr in the rapid fire event is on Jan 1, 2005........does that mean that all rapid fire events in 2004 (including Olympics) will only be using 22 short??? thanks
Any matches run under ISSF rules, and that includes the Olympics, must be under the existing rules which allow 22 short. Remember though that those existing rules already allow you to use 22LR in a standard pistol (even though I doubt if you would see it at a high level match).
Does anybody know whether the Commonwealth Shooting Championships in Melbourne in March 2005 will be under the new rules. I presume they will but, hope the ISSF are a bit quicker at issuing the final versions of the rules than they were for the 2001 changes.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44485.44484
Any matches run under ISSF rules, and that includes the Olympics, must be under the existing rules which allow 22 short. Remember though that those existing rules already allow you to use 22LR in a standard pistol (even though I doubt if you would see it at a high level match).
Does anybody know whether the Commonwealth Shooting Championships in Melbourne in March 2005 will be under the new rules. I presume they will but, hope the ISSF are a bit quicker at issuing the final versions of the rules than they were for the 2001 changes.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44485.44484
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Spencer C
Re: rapid fire change in cartridge - and how will velocity b
This would be 'nice' to know - preliminary testing gives very few regular brands of .22lr pistol ammunition that meet the velocity required when fired from commonly used Standard pistols (none give the required velocity in GSPs)
.44489.44485
.44489.44485
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David Levene
Re: rapid fire change in cartridge - and how will velocity b
: This would be 'nice' to know - preliminary testing gives very few regular brands of .22lr pistol ammunition that meet the velocity required when fired from commonly used Standard pistols (none give the required velocity in GSPs)
Hey, have I missed something Spencer. Have they got as far as giving the proposed lower velocity limit.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44491.44489
Hey, have I missed something Spencer. Have they got as far as giving the proposed lower velocity limit.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44491.44489
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David Levene
Re:Velocity, found it
: : This would be 'nice' to know - preliminary testing gives very few regular brands of .22lr pistol ammunition that meet the velocity required when fired from commonly used Standard pistols (none give the required velocity in GSPs)
:
: Hey, have I missed something Spencer. Have they got as far as giving the proposed lower velocity limit.
Just found it, 39-grain minimum bullet weight and 280 m/sec. minimum velocity
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44492.44491
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: Hey, have I missed something Spencer. Have they got as far as giving the proposed lower velocity limit.
Just found it, 39-grain minimum bullet weight and 280 m/sec. minimum velocity
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44492.44491
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Paul T (UK)
Commonwealth Games
Whilst the new rules kick in January 2005 and may/will (?) impact the Commonwealth Games, will the new rules also apply for the competition presumably held the year before the games and hence new rules?
The same question also applies to the CSF (ED) or similar events as they fall in the same cycle but precede this rule change?
paul-at-lans.demon.co.uk.44494.44485
The same question also applies to the CSF (ED) or similar events as they fall in the same cycle but precede this rule change?
paul-at-lans.demon.co.uk.44494.44485
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David Levene
Re: Commonwealth Games
: Whilst the new rules kick in January 2005 and may/will (?) impact the Commonwealth Games, will the new rules also apply for the competition presumably held the year before the games and hence new rules?
: The same question also applies to the CSF (ED) or similar events as they fall in the same cycle but precede this rule change?
It's the CSF Championships in March 2005 Paul. I am pretty sure that they, and the Games in 2006 will be "New rules".
I get the impression, and totally agree, that all major matches will be in accordance with the rules current at that time ie before 2005 = old rules, after 2004 = new rules.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44502.44494
: The same question also applies to the CSF (ED) or similar events as they fall in the same cycle but precede this rule change?
It's the CSF Championships in March 2005 Paul. I am pretty sure that they, and the Games in 2006 will be "New rules".
I get the impression, and totally agree, that all major matches will be in accordance with the rules current at that time ie before 2005 = old rules, after 2004 = new rules.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.44502.44494
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David M
Re:Velocity, testing/results
Testing I did from a couple of weeks ago with the longest barrel .22 (Unique 96) and the shortest barrel (Walther GSP) found a flaw in the rule.
Of eight ammos tried (all sold as standard velocity) only a couple passed in the Unique and all were too slow from the Walther.
It appears that the stated manufactures velocities are from much longer test barrels.
The results were sent via Spencer to the ISSF for further evaluation.
.44505.44492
Of eight ammos tried (all sold as standard velocity) only a couple passed in the Unique and all were too slow from the Walther.
It appears that the stated manufactures velocities are from much longer test barrels.
The results were sent via Spencer to the ISSF for further evaluation.
.44505.44492
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scott
Re:Velocity, testing/results
OK… So ISSF, in their (in)finite wisdom, decree that we shall now shoot 25M rapid fire with the uncompensated standard pistol, using a minimum of 39 grain bullets at 280 meters per second, with an open back grip and 1000 gram triggers, and at least based on the testing cited here the Walther GSP, a short barrel design with the mag well in front of the trigger group won’t make the needed minimum velocity.
Scratch the most popular ISSF pistol design of the last half-century from the equipment list. Yet another gun for the Aussies to turn in. Chances are the Pardini standard pistol design won’t cut it either. Scratch that option, along with the new Morini, too.
We are now left to shoot ISSF rapid fire with ‘magazine in the grip’ gun designs that date back to the turn of the last century. Anyone have a nice Walther Olympia, circa 1934, or maybe a Colt Woodsman, circa 1915, they want to sell? A 50 year old High Standard Citation is now state of the art?
Madness. Absolute madness.
I shot rapid fire with .22 LR standard pistols for a number of years before getting a .22 short RFP, and based on that experience, and the comments of other world-class RFP athletes, I see this change in equipment as the death of RFP as we know it. I doubt the world record under the new format will exceed 560 of 600 in the first half-decade of competition. I’ll buy dinner for the first shooter over 570. Ever. You think TV is bored with reporting shooting scores just a couple points from perfect now? Try reporting Joe Blow won a gold medal with a score 40 points off the maximum possible. Yawn, and now let’s see what’s happening over in syncro swim…
If the ISSF, under economic pressure from IOC, wants to play lap dog, roll over and change the Olympic event lineup, then add a new event like 10M rapid air pistol in place of existing 25M RFP, but don’t change the basic nature of the 25M RFP event to one in which the instrument is just not up to the task at hand. If RFP match conduct efficiency is at issue, then limit the number of malfunctions to one per half course and the reliability problem takes care of itself. You break more than once per half course, you go home. Simple.
Sarah Brady herself could not have chosen a worse course for the future of 25m RFP if she’d been given carte blanche by both the ISSF and IOC. NRA conventional pistol, or, heaven forbid, even cowboy action shooting is looking more rational and inviting than this recent load of crap from ISSF.
Bah, humbug!
Scott
: Testing I did from a couple of weeks ago with the longest barrel .22 (Unique 96) and the shortest barrel (Walther GSP) found a flaw in the rule.
: Of eight ammos tried (all sold as standard velocity) only a couple passed in the Unique and all were too slow from the Walther.
: It appears that the stated manufactures velocities are from much longer test barrels.
: The results were sent via Spencer to the ISSF for further evaluation.
submoa-at-aol.com.44612.44505
Scratch the most popular ISSF pistol design of the last half-century from the equipment list. Yet another gun for the Aussies to turn in. Chances are the Pardini standard pistol design won’t cut it either. Scratch that option, along with the new Morini, too.
We are now left to shoot ISSF rapid fire with ‘magazine in the grip’ gun designs that date back to the turn of the last century. Anyone have a nice Walther Olympia, circa 1934, or maybe a Colt Woodsman, circa 1915, they want to sell? A 50 year old High Standard Citation is now state of the art?
Madness. Absolute madness.
I shot rapid fire with .22 LR standard pistols for a number of years before getting a .22 short RFP, and based on that experience, and the comments of other world-class RFP athletes, I see this change in equipment as the death of RFP as we know it. I doubt the world record under the new format will exceed 560 of 600 in the first half-decade of competition. I’ll buy dinner for the first shooter over 570. Ever. You think TV is bored with reporting shooting scores just a couple points from perfect now? Try reporting Joe Blow won a gold medal with a score 40 points off the maximum possible. Yawn, and now let’s see what’s happening over in syncro swim…
If the ISSF, under economic pressure from IOC, wants to play lap dog, roll over and change the Olympic event lineup, then add a new event like 10M rapid air pistol in place of existing 25M RFP, but don’t change the basic nature of the 25M RFP event to one in which the instrument is just not up to the task at hand. If RFP match conduct efficiency is at issue, then limit the number of malfunctions to one per half course and the reliability problem takes care of itself. You break more than once per half course, you go home. Simple.
Sarah Brady herself could not have chosen a worse course for the future of 25m RFP if she’d been given carte blanche by both the ISSF and IOC. NRA conventional pistol, or, heaven forbid, even cowboy action shooting is looking more rational and inviting than this recent load of crap from ISSF.
Bah, humbug!
Scott
: Testing I did from a couple of weeks ago with the longest barrel .22 (Unique 96) and the shortest barrel (Walther GSP) found a flaw in the rule.
: Of eight ammos tried (all sold as standard velocity) only a couple passed in the Unique and all were too slow from the Walther.
: It appears that the stated manufactures velocities are from much longer test barrels.
: The results were sent via Spencer to the ISSF for further evaluation.
submoa-at-aol.com.44612.44505
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Spencer C
So, where do we come for this free dinner?
"...I’ll buy dinner for the first shooter over 570. Ever..."
A brave statement - a number of shooters (not quite at Olympic level) in training for the new rules are already shooting 570+ using .22lr and Standard pistols.
.44639.44612
A brave statement - a number of shooters (not quite at Olympic level) in training for the new rules are already shooting 570+ using .22lr and Standard pistols.
.44639.44612
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ian hodgson
Re: Commonwealth Games
: : Whilst the new rules kick in January 2005 and may/will (?) impact the Commonwealth Games, will the new rules also apply for the competition presumably held the year before the games and hence new rules?
: : The same question also applies to the CSF (ED) or similar events as they fall in the same cycle but precede this rule change?
: It's the CSF Championships in March 2005 Paul. I am pretty sure that they, and the Games in 2006 will be "New rules".
: I get the impression, and totally agree, that all major matches will be in accordance with the rules current at that time ie before 2005 = old rules, after 2004 = new rules.
David,
Given I will be involved in running and competing in CSF(ED) 2004 can you please clarify the above statement
ie before 2005=old rules, after 2004=new rules?
I presume you meant before 2004=old rules?
regards
Ian Hodgson - Isle of Man (offshore UK)
Where catridge pistol is alive and well
idh-at-enterprise.net.44643.44502
: : The same question also applies to the CSF (ED) or similar events as they fall in the same cycle but precede this rule change?
: It's the CSF Championships in March 2005 Paul. I am pretty sure that they, and the Games in 2006 will be "New rules".
: I get the impression, and totally agree, that all major matches will be in accordance with the rules current at that time ie before 2005 = old rules, after 2004 = new rules.
David,
Given I will be involved in running and competing in CSF(ED) 2004 can you please clarify the above statement
ie before 2005=old rules, after 2004=new rules?
I presume you meant before 2004=old rules?
regards
Ian Hodgson - Isle of Man (offshore UK)
Where catridge pistol is alive and well
idh-at-enterprise.net.44643.44502
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scott
So, where do we come for this free dinner?-Salt Lake City
: You betcha it is! Always back up my 'brave' words with action.
The dinner in question is on me, at the Porcupine Resturant in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. (A great little pub tucked away at the mouth of Big Cottonwood Canyon in the eastern foothills of the city.)
First shooting sports athlete to bring me an official results bulletin with their score over 570/600 in an ISSF-sanctioned match, using the new .22LR standard pistol equipment and full power ammo on the new target in the new 25M RFP Standard Pistol event gets a free dinner and a couple good draft microbrews to wash it down with. (I'll want to see the official equipment control tech forms that pass both the .22LR gun and .22LR ammo as meeting the new rules too.)
Come hungry. The fish and chips are first rate here! ;)
Scott
: "...I’ll buy dinner for the first shooter over 570. Ever..."
: A brave statement - a number of shooters (not quite at Olympic level) in training for the new rules are already shooting 570+ using .22lr and Standard pistols.
submoa-at-aol.com.44787.44639
The dinner in question is on me, at the Porcupine Resturant in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. (A great little pub tucked away at the mouth of Big Cottonwood Canyon in the eastern foothills of the city.)
First shooting sports athlete to bring me an official results bulletin with their score over 570/600 in an ISSF-sanctioned match, using the new .22LR standard pistol equipment and full power ammo on the new target in the new 25M RFP Standard Pistol event gets a free dinner and a couple good draft microbrews to wash it down with. (I'll want to see the official equipment control tech forms that pass both the .22LR gun and .22LR ammo as meeting the new rules too.)
Come hungry. The fish and chips are first rate here! ;)
Scott
: "...I’ll buy dinner for the first shooter over 570. Ever..."
: A brave statement - a number of shooters (not quite at Olympic level) in training for the new rules are already shooting 570+ using .22lr and Standard pistols.
submoa-at-aol.com.44787.44639
-
scott
So, where do we come for this free dinner?-Salt Lake City
: You betcha it is! Always back up my 'brave' words with action.
The dinner in question is on me, at the Porcupine Resturant in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. (A great little pub tucked away at the mouth of Big Cottonwood Canyon in the eastern foothills of the city.)
First shooting sports athlete to bring me an official results bulletin with their score over 570/600 in an ISSF-sanctioned match, using the new .22LR standard pistol equipment and full power ammo on the new target in the new 25M RFP Standard Pistol event gets a free dinner and a couple good draft microbrews to wash it down with. (I'll want to see the official equipment control tech forms that pass both the .22LR gun and .22LR ammo as meeting the new rules too.)
Come hungry. The fish and chips are first rate here! ;)
Scott
: "...I’ll buy dinner for the first shooter over 570. Ever..."
: A brave statement - a number of shooters (not quite at Olympic level) in training for the new rules are already shooting 570+ using .22lr and Standard pistols.
submoa-at-aol.com.44787.44639
The dinner in question is on me, at the Porcupine Resturant in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. (A great little pub tucked away at the mouth of Big Cottonwood Canyon in the eastern foothills of the city.)
First shooting sports athlete to bring me an official results bulletin with their score over 570/600 in an ISSF-sanctioned match, using the new .22LR standard pistol equipment and full power ammo on the new target in the new 25M RFP Standard Pistol event gets a free dinner and a couple good draft microbrews to wash it down with. (I'll want to see the official equipment control tech forms that pass both the .22LR gun and .22LR ammo as meeting the new rules too.)
Come hungry. The fish and chips are first rate here! ;)
Scott
: "...I’ll buy dinner for the first shooter over 570. Ever..."
: A brave statement - a number of shooters (not quite at Olympic level) in training for the new rules are already shooting 570+ using .22lr and Standard pistols.
submoa-at-aol.com.44787.44639
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Tony Baker
Re:Velocity, testing/results
Did you test a FAS .22?If so did it pass?
tonybaker-at-kooee.com.au.44928.44505
tonybaker-at-kooee.com.au.44928.44505