Is there a way to Estimate Optimum Grip Angle (Rake)?

[fhorrigan]

I am a relative beginner who has been shooting 10 m AP for ~4 months with a Walther CP2. Until recently, I avoided adjusting or modifying the grip because I wasn’t sure what I needed or preferred. Now that my hold and trigger control have improved (best score 534), I realize that I am often fighting to keep my front sight from drifting down relative to the rear. I can get a better “lock” by squeezing the grip very tightly. But that causes other problems in terms of fatigue and trigger control.

Based on descriptions of similar symptoms on this forum, I suspect that I would benefit from an increased rake angle. Unfortunately, the CP2, doesn’t have a very adjustable grip. Increasing the rake as much as possible and adding some putty under the trigger guard and behind my middle finger seems to help a little. I believe I might be able to increase the rake a few degrees more if I remove some of the wood shelf under the rear sight. But I hesitate to risk weakening that part of the grip if I don’t know whether a few degrees will be enough. Likewise, it is difficult to consider ordering a custom grip with increased rake, or even purchasing a different pistol, if I don’t know what I need in terms of angle.

Therefore, I was wondering if there is a procedure or rule of thumb for estimating a shooters optimal rake angle?

I’m sure the simplest solution is to try other pistols, but I have never even handled another one and therefore have no point of reference. I am practicing on my own and don’t know any local stores or clubs using Olympic style air pistols. If anyone can point me to one near Houston, please let me know. There are plenty of shooting ranges here, but see little mention of air pistols. I am also a lefty, making it harder to find pistols to try.

Previous posts suggest that the optimum rake angle is the maximum that is still comfortable. I tried putting a laser pointer on my pistol to estimate how much range of motion I have. I think the maximum I can point the front sight down is ~13 degrees, at which point I feel uncomfortable tension in my elbow. Is there any rule of thumb for estimating an optimum angle based on the maximum range of motion (e.g. find your maximum and back off X-degrees)?

[David M]

Therefore, I was wondering if there is a procedure or rule of thumb for estimating a shooters optimal rake angle?

Previous posts suggest that the optimum rake angle is the maximum that is still comfortable.

Is there any rule of thumb for estimating an optimum angle based on the maximum range of motion (e.g. find your maximum and back off X-degrees)?

Rake angle is dependent on a number of factors.
-The type of shooting, precision or speed. More rake for precision, less for speed. Hence a Free pistol is at near maximum rake and a Rapid fire pistol a lot less.
-The calibre of the gun and recoil. The bigger the calibre and recoil the less rake you need. Helps to avoid wrist damage and control the heavier shot. Hence a .45 has a near upright grip.
-The more rake angle the lighter the grip pressure and the lesser angle the more grip pressure can be used.

With a grip that feels comfortable in your hand when lightly held, an Airpistol when pointed down range should rest slightly high and right (right handed shooter) of the target.
When the grip pressure is increased to shooting pressure (medium pressure) the sights should tilt down and left to the aim area. This is only a slight movement as the wrist tensions.
If the sights after tension are not aligned i.e. too low, you need more rake. If too high, you need less rake.
If left or right you need grip rotation.
This is a personal thing you will sort with experience, remember these movement are very small.

[fhorrigan]

Thanks for the comments David M

If the sights are not aligned i.e. too low, you need less rake. If too high, you need more rake.

Is that a typo, or do I have misunderstanding how rake is defined? If the front sight is too low wouldn't you need more rake (i.e. increased rake angle) to raise it up? Or, to put it another way, if you want to bend your wrist down more but keep the front sight elevated wouldn't you need more rake?

This is a personal thing you will sort with experience, remember these movement are very small.

I understand that the optimal rake angle is a personal thing depending on the pistol type, weight, and person's anatomy. So I wasn't suggesting there is a rake angle that is best for everyone. Indeed, I gather that different pistols can have very different rake angles that are appropriate for some shooters but won't work for others, even if they try to compensate by adjustments in grip strength etc. That's my concern. If the grip angle of my pistol isn't appropriate for me, will I be able to compensate for that with enough practice as you suggest, or will it just limit my progress? Is finding a grip angle or pistol that fits simply a matter of trial and error, or are there methods to fit the equipment to the person as in other sports?

Finally, just to clarify, I asked about the relationship between range of motion and optimum rake angle because it seems to me that they should be related. That is, the purpose of increasing rake, as I understand it, is to allow the wrist to bend more so that the tendons in the wrist (with relatively constant mechanical properties) can take up some of the load in aiming the pistol so that your muscles (which can fatigue or shake) don't have to. Your maximum range of motion also depends on the tension in those tendons. I may be over-analyzing the situation. But as a professor of physiology and biophysics in a medical school I can't help thinking in terms of forces and physiology :-)

[David M]

Typo corrected.

The main things that effect rake are trigger pressure and grip pressure (these go hand in hand).
Free/Air pistol, light trigger, light recoil, light grip pressure hence high rake angle.
Centrefire pistol, high grip pressure, heavy trigger, big recoil, low rake angle.

The wrong rake angle can and will cause wrist damage. You do NOT want too much rake with
high calibre or recoil. If it hurts to shoot STOP.
Tendons are very difficult to repair.
-

[thirdwheel]

Welcome to the very interesting world of air pistol shooting.

Yes there is an optimum rake for you, but first lets try a simple fix first for that dropping front sight.
Have you ever noticed if you are concentrating on something with your eyes you slightly tip your head towards the object? Are you doing this when concentrating on the sights, try holding up your up head in the type of posture your mum always told you to do and not let it slouch forward. Does that fix the problem?

Now the more not so simple answer, I'm afraid you have to look at the grip as disposable and adjust it incrementally to put the sights where you want then. Have a good look at the modifications that the top lads and lassies do to their grips by going on youtube and watching the ISSF gold cup finals and read everything there is to read about grip mods but they are all over the place and sometimes of questionable quality. those highly worked on grips are not a thing of beauty.

A drop wrist in air pistol is stable (most of the movement you see comes from the wrist) as it just sits there and that is where your rake comes into play to get it to that semi locked state. The big picture is get the grip to do its job simply with good support but playing about for ever takes away time from building your subconscious skill set as things have to be re learned, and trying to explain grip adjustment and how to is sooo difficult with a keyboard.

On the bright side once you have butchered your grip and it works for you well but looks like a child has made it Thomas Rink in Germany will scan it for you and make a beautiful one in Walnut.

[fhorrigan]

thirdwheel - thanks for the suggestions.

I'm afraid the simple fix may not be enough. I have been careful to keep my head upright and avoid slouching because I noticed it does help reduce the tendency of my front sight to drop, as well as improve overall consistency. Leaning back a little helps a little more, but doesn't eliminate the problem. One advantage is it has improved my posture! I'm hoping to use that as a selling point when it comes time to convince my wife that I need a new pistol - she's been telling me to stand up straight for years to no avail :-)

I'm not opposed to butchering the grip if it will give the result I want, and have read a lot about that and tried some minor modifications, as I mentioned. I'm just not sure, even with modification that I will be able to alter this grip enough. If it were a two-part grip, I think I would prefer to experiment with making a new one, as I've seen others do for IZH-m46. That way I could always compare modified and unmodified. But a one part grip may be beyond my wood-working skills.

[thirdwheel]

What a shame the simple stuff has not cured it, leaning back just a little was going to be my next advice, some people like this too as it brings the COG back to within the body and they find it more stable, we are all different and I have found this makes me too comfortable and I take too long to release resulting in a lactic acid build up and poor muscle response and doubt setting in.

I responded to your plight as I have been down this road a lot with the same problem, I shoot a Pardini K12 and Morini Titanium and both of these had the manufactures grips for the size of my hand but dropped the front sight when held properly with a dropped wrist. Initially I started with the K12 and after taking advice like you I ordered a Rink grip for the K12 and bingo problem solved, ish. Took a small amount of wood away from under the sight - maybe a millimetre but probably less and moved the shelf up a gnats cock and all was good. Fast forward a few years and the Titanum what a horror with the correct size morini grip for me, lots of grip work ensued but I was never happy so it sat in the box for a few months and I was going to sell it on. The penny dropped and I bought a Rink grip and again all was good with no work needed. I'm on the borderline of two sizes so I bought the smaller size but again everyone is different. There is no substitute for trying out stuff first hand though and from where you are anything will be a bit of a punt and hope it works. BUT many pistols have adjustment now though and the Steyr pistols from the LP2 and later can slew and rake the frame of the pistol in the grip, this can save lots of wood butchery and filler. My wife found this adjustment superb on her LP2. As a bodge of the first order see how your frame fits in your grip and could it be packed out in one place to lift the sight, I've a 0.5mm shim using target material in my K12 and that makes it perfect.

[Amati]

.... I was wondering if there is a procedure or rule of thumb for estimating a shooters optimal rake angle? ....

You want the holy grail, eh?
Anybody who tells they have a patent answer that covers all is a heretic and is to be avoided.
Personally I'm on my fifth computer printed grip and currently designing my sixth. Andrew hates me but I love him.

[JamesHH]

I guess the simple answer is try different angles and see which gives you your best score.
Personally I think most people bend their wrist too much looking for an effortless hold.
Otherwise start with this, from the Yur'Yev book.

[fhorrigan]

Let me clarify my original question, since I'm not sure everyone gets what I'm asking.

I guess the simple answer is try different angles and see which gives you your best score.

JamesHH - Yes, that would be the simplest if my grip was adjustable, or if I had access to a pistol with adjustable rake.
To rephrase the question - Is there a way to estimate what rake angle would be best for me, by using my existing non-adjustable grip?

You want the holy grail, eh?.

Amati - If by holy grail, you mean my perfect rake angle - No I don't expect that. I am just looking for a starting point, a rough estimate, that will allow me to decide whether I can get where I need to be by modifying my current grip or whether I need a new grip; and if the latter, what angle or range of angles to try.

Maybe there is no answer except to make multiple grips with different rake angles until I find one I like. However, it seems to me there must be other ways. For example, why can't I just compare two wrist angles, by shooting at two different targets as in the attached illustration (modified from the Yur'Yev book)? For target A, I would aim as usual by aligning my front and rear sight relative to target A. For target B, I would angle my wrist down and add an extra long front sight to compensate (highlighted in red) - so that I can continue to align my sights relative to target A. If increased wrist angle (rake) is beneficial then shouldn't case B make it easier to keep my sights aligned and produce a tighter grouping of shots?

If my questions are naive or beating a dead horse, feel free to let me know. As a research scientist, I can't help asking "why?"...

[JamesHH]

For example, why can't I just compare two wrist angles, by shooting at two different targets as in the attached illustration (modified from the Yur'Yev book)? For target A, I would aim as usual by aligning my front and rear sight relative to target A. For target B, I would angle my wrist down and add an extra long front sight to compensate (highlighted in red) - so that I can continue to align my sights relative to target A. If increased wrist angle (rake) is beneficial then shouldn't case B make it easier to keep my sights aligned and produce a tighter grouping of shots?

You can do exactly that.

Or you can pick some intermediate value which is good enough, work until your scores are in the 570s and then fine tune your grip angle for those last few points.
In my experience, and we tested it with a scatt, people pick a grip angle which is too steeply raked, trigger control is consequentially poor and people get bad results. But it feels like it should work, some of the top shooters do it and all the top level pistols have a steep grip angle (it feels good in the shop) so it must be right.

[fhorrigan]

JamesHH - Thanks! I was also wondering if it could be tested with scatt, so you answered a couple of my questions. I will attempt the method I suggested but try to err on the side of lower rake angle to avoid triggering problems. I don't have a scatt but have been using the simpler MantisX, and it tells me trigger control is one of the main things I need to improve, so I don't want to make that more difficult than it already is. At this point, I would be more that happy if I could reach the 570s.

[thirdwheel]

Unfortunately being a research scientist you to are afflicted with the same handicap as many of us when we ask "why" or "if" and then try and quantify the outcome. I've lost the amount of times I've got the got the engineer in my brain on task, moving stuff and trying stuff out, and my Scatt helps me to stray down this road too. Only to be severely berated by my very calm (most of the time) professional coach to just stop being stupid and to point the thing and pull the (@**%ing) trigger, in fact I rose to new heights this week changing my trigger release, he got so exasperated he has hit me with a written warning, as I think words had almost failed him this time and I'd hidden his rounders bat which he usually uses to hit me with! Coaches are there to save us from ourselves.

Your pb after only four months is not too shabby, so just work on what you have learned, improve your release so it becomes motored by your subconscious and only let it go if the sight picture is perfect, did you know just because you have lifted the thing to the target you are not compelled to pull the trigger (took me an age to realise that one). 10m pistol shooting is totally compelling and absorbing and that is why we want to do better and better and to raise our target score, and you can be forgiven for trying to find the ultimate rake position which must be out there for all of us. I've given this up ( nah) as I can only take so much bruising.

[JamesHH]

Having just re-read the Yur'Yev book again, (so much new stuff in there - every time), there was a part which explained that it took a novice shooter months and months of training to separate involuntary coordination between muscles he/she wants to be active and muscles he/she doesn't.
So in the early days your trigger control will be poor, it will be hard to prevent involuntary movement of hand and arm muscles besides your trigger finger.
Based on this I'd say a beginning shooter will not be served well by a steep grip which gives a weak hold and makes trigger control harder. I think its a mistake for beginning shooters to buy the latest competition arm which is designed around the top shooters with years of training.

[fhorrigan]

JamesHH - I will try to be conservative, and find a copy of that book.

thirdwheel - I admit to sometimes being overly analytical and obsessed with numbers. But I suppose that is also part of the reason I'm obsessed with putting the silly little pellet in the (#@!!ing) 10 ring. I fully respect your coach's advice to shut up and pull the trigger. I always thought my fencing coach had the most persuasive argument for not questioning his advice "This is the only sport developed by 500 years of natural selection. Those who taught it differently lost the duel and died." But beating me with a bat would have worked too!!

Unfortunately I don't have a coach or other shooters to interact with. So I rely on advice from here; and have to ask "why" to understand where the advice is coming from and whether it's appropriate for someone at my level. Since there seems to be a consensus that a beginner should not make big changes in rake angle, or should work on other things first, I will try to resist major modifications for now. But after modifying my fencing grip for 10 years, it is hard to resist the urge to "tweak"...