Disqualified at Canadian Grand Prix. Any help is appreciated

[cjon600]

Same thing happened to one of the US shooters in Bangkok... I spoke with James Hall after the event on what hes doing to fix it. He said he had his at 530 when he left America but from now on his trigger will lift 600. Time to crank it up!

[trinity]

All the suggestions to making your trigger weight a little heavier are right on the money. The other thing is, when you test at home, make sure you can easily lift it. Or even better, have someone who isn't a shooter test it for you. Just tell them what you are trying to test, and see if they can easily lift it. If one person has trouble, then you probably have it too close to the legal limit.

The thing is, at competitions, you have no control over who is doing the trigger check. It could be someone with experience, or someone who isn't as careful. So, if I get selected for random check, I am watching the check person like a hawk and watch over the proceedings VERY carefully. Also, as soon as they fail one lift, I am now even more observant as to how they are doing it, and making sure they are doing it in a slow and careful manner. And if I have any concerns, I voice them immediately before the next lift is attempted. As commented on before, after 3 attempts, you are out of luck! No amount of arguing is going to fix the DSQ.

As for the lyman electronic trigger weight tester, I do travel with it and use it to verify the trigger weight ball park, but I don't use it to set the actual weight of the trigger. The reason is the trigger weight it reports depends on how you pull it. So if you pull it faster, it will overshoot more, if you pull it slower, it can actually under report. Nonetheless, because I don't want to travel with the official ISSF weight, I travel with the Lyman tester, because it is good enough to check for that the trigger is generally over before I go up to the equipment check line. Again, if your trigger is set to 505g, the Lyman isn't going to help you much. But, if your trigger is set to 550g, then if the Lyman reports 530g, you are still pretty sure everything is fine.

-trinity

[Roly]

So Philip, how'd you do at the 2018 CAGP? By the smile on your face and the medals on your chest I'd guess you (and they) were happier with your trigger? Congratulations.
I really felt bad for you in 2016. A lot of people failed the check for different reasons. This year one very competitive kid's jacket failed the stiffness test and he was a high scorer. That same year I took third in Veterans because a shooter ahead of me was also DQ'd for a light trigger. My trigger is so stiff they have to bounce the weight to get it to pull.
(I shot two positions to your left on Saturday)

[BobGee]

As for the lyman electronic trigger weight tester, I do travel with it and use it to verify the trigger weight ball park, but I don't use it to set the actual weight of the trigger. The reason is the trigger weight it reports depends on how you pull it. So if you pull it faster, it will overshoot more, if you pull it slower, it can actually under report. Nonetheless, because I don't want to travel with the official ISSF weight, I travel with the Lyman tester, because it is good enough to check for that the trigger is generally over before I go up to the equipment check line. Again, if your trigger is set to 505g, the Lyman isn't going to help you much. But, if your trigger is set to 550g, then if the Lyman reports 530g, you are still pretty sure everything is fine.
-trinity

I know the OP is an old post but I’m not sure how you can rely on the Lyman gauge (just bought the latest version) for the kind of precision we need in AP (500gm + a bit) or other ISSF disciplines (1000gm + a bit). I cannot get reliable results from the device because as soon as the trigger releases I hit the trigger stop and it’s nigh on impossible not to over-run on the pull and this increases the apparent trigger release weight. Strangely, on the few occasions I have managed not to over-run, the recorded weight is much lower than I know it is (I too have a home-made bent wire and used lead trigger weight).

My recommendation, FWIW, is to stick with gravity and use a weight with one or two large 2inch washers over the rod. BTW, it really doesn’t matter where the extra weight (washers, coins, pellets) is placed on a gravity weight, it all still goes directly downwards the through the trigger contact point with the wire hanger.

Bob

[Gwhite]

I use the Lyman a lot, but just for coarse testing & evaluating 1st vs 2nd stage weight. It takes a lot of practice to get really consistent readings, depending on how the trigger stop is set, etc. Even then, I typically take 3 or 4 readings at least until I get some sort of vague agreement. Even the weight is subject to some variation depending on the weigher's technique.

The team I help coach went to the Collegiate National Championships last month. We checked all 18 pistols with a weight before we left. After a bout with air travel baggage handlers, one air pistol was just a tiny bit light at equipment check-in, and that was quickly fixed. However, the guy doing the weighing commented that one of the .22's was a bit heavy. I checked it with the Lyman when we got back, and it was at 1.25 kg. I'm coaching this evening & will use the Lyman to get it down to ~ 1.1 kg or a little less, and then I will re-check it with the weight.

The Lyman is also useful for some gunsmithing tasks. I've had good results using it to check extractor tension with a small loop of fishing line.

[Coolmeester]

Keep eye on the angle of the gun while the inspector tests your gun. If the barrel is pointing even slightly backwards it may result your gun to fail the test. Keep it pointing straight upwards!

[william]

Keep eye on the angle of the gun while the inspector tests your gun. If the barrel is pointing even slightly backwards it may result your gun to fail the test. Keep it pointing straight upwards!

Why does anybody have to adjust his trigger down to the point that a couple of degrees of barrel inclination is the difference between go and no-go? Let-off weight of 515 grams is only a half a bloody ounce over, and it provides plenty of margin for error. If it's a mental thing and you simply have to know that your trigger isn't so heavy that it handicaps your performance, have somebody else adjust it to a safe weight and then tell you not the actual number but simply, "It passes."

To quote an old friend: "Live on the edge. Die on the edge."

[Coolmeester]

Keep eye on the angle of the gun while the inspector tests your gun. If the barrel is pointing even slightly backwards it may result your gun to fail the test. Keep it pointing straight upwards!

Why does anybody have to adjust his trigger down to the point that a couple of degrees of barrel inclination is the difference between go and no-go? Let-off weight of 515 grams is only a half a bloody ounce over, and it provides plenty of margin for error. If it's a mental thing and you simply have to know that your trigger isn't so heavy that it handicaps your performance, have somebody else adjust it to a safe weight and then tell you not the actual number but simply, "It passes."

To quote an old friend: "Live on the edge. Die on the edge."

With some air pistols, 515g - even 530g will easily fail the test if tested wrong. Of course everyone puts safe margin over the 500g to not to fail in the test.

[gspell68]

I saw video of a karate competition once where one guy obviously hit the other.
The judges did not award the guy the point because they said his punch lacked power.
Then, right before they let the fight resume, the guy that got hit passed out.
Then they disqualified the puncher for using "excessive force".

Sometimes things are just stacked against you...

[Leadbelly]

Have you ever noticed, if you're a crappy shooter, you can break all the rules and no body cares.
But When you are winning some ones say you must be cheating. They tried to DQ me after setting a new state record. I had the rule book which show no rules were broken. Then he said I was a professional, I had never won any money. Lucky for me the State director was there and said I broke no rules and won. The next year I was not allowed to shoot the match, the match director said I never sent my paper work in. AGAIN HE LIED!
Sorry you were screwed out of winning. I am making mine heavier now. Good luck on you next match.

[william]

Keep eye on the angle of the gun while the inspector tests your gun. If the barrel is pointing even slightly backwards it may result your gun to fail the test. Keep it pointing straight upwards!

Why does anybody have to adjust his trigger down to the point that a couple of degrees of barrel inclination is the difference between go and no-go? Let-off weight of 515 grams is only a half a bloody ounce over, and it provides plenty of margin for error. If it's a mental thing and you simply have to know that your trigger isn't so heavy that it handicaps your performance, have somebody else adjust it to a safe weight and then tell you not the actual number but simply, "It passes."

To quote an old friend: "Live on the edge. Die on the edge."

With some air pistols, 515g - even 530g will easily fail the test if tested wrong. Of course everyone puts safe margin over the 500g to not to fail in the test.

That's why they have protocols for multiple re-tests. Not "everyone puts safe margin over the 500g to not to fail in the test." The last DQ'ed shooter I had a conversation with on the subject told me he thought his pistol might pass or not. It was that close to the magic number. I can't imagine another half ounce was going to make a difference in his shooting, but it sure would have in his final result.

[william]

Have you ever noticed, if you're a crappy shooter, you can break all the rules and no body cares.
But When you are winning some ones say you must be cheating. They tried to DQ me after setting a new state record. I had the rule book which show no rules were broken. Then he said I was a professional, I had never won any money. Lucky for me the State director was there and said I broke no rules and won. The next year I was not allowed to shoot the match, the match director said I never sent my paper work in. AGAIN HE LIED!
Sorry you were screwed out of winning. I am making mine heavier now. Good luck on you next match.

Seems like somebody needs interpersonal skills lessons from Rover. ;-)

[Rover]

They tried pulling that crap on me one time. In a flash I had a USAMU armorer there breathing down their neck. No more problems.

William knows I'm not apt to be overly polite, but there was always a jug or case of beer for my buds.

[SlartyBartFast]

Just a random opinion:
Why isn't there an apparatus to make sure the pistol is held vertically?
Or, why isn't there a standardised trigger gauge that wouldn't rely on gravity and how the pistol is held?

Because after you deal with the variables of where on the trigger the weights are placed and the angle at which the pistol is supported, how the weights/pistol are manipulated will affect the measured weight. Any quick movement will input energy into the pull and cause a lower reading or a fail.

Was thinking some sort of air piston with grips to clamp a trigger guard and a frame to support the piston and a brass rod to align with barrel bore. A precision regulator, air tank (pressurised to provide the fail force for the piston), and calibrated orifice to charge the air piston would result in repeatable and accurate measure of pass/fail.

An accurate digital gauge and data capture with a much higher tank pressure could very accurately record the break pressure (and thus force) of the trigger.

An accurate digital gauge and data capture on the pass/fail setup would provide graphical proof of application rate, max attained, and failing trigger break pressure if the pistol does not pass.

The same engraved plate and circuit board that digital caliper use could be put on the frame bore to trigger adjustment and muzzle to trigger adjustment to give a record of how the rig was adjusted for the test.

I've clearly over thought this... :p

[j-team]

I don't know why everyone gets so fixated on having he barrel absolutely vertical. If my calculations are correct you need to be 8 degrees out to make 1% difference to the force on the trigger, and that difference is in the favour of the shooter (i.e. less force along the axis of the pistol). This is assuming that the trigger shoe has a groove and the weight has a blade (as per the ISSF rules) and can't slide out of position on the blade.

But I agree, there is nothing more annoying that to see incompetent officials trying to test a trigger. The one that irks me most, is those that jerk the pistol up and down to fire it after it has passed!

I once saw (in Munich in 1990s) a testing method I thought was good. They had a cradle that held the pistol (vertical) and they just hung the weight on the trigger. So simple and effective, but someone decided that it wasn't compliant with the rules which stated the weight must be lifted.

[SlartyBartFast]

I once saw (in Munich in 1990s) a testing method I thought was good. They had a cradle that held the pistol (vertical) and they just hung the weight on the trigger. So simple and effective, but someone decided that it wasn't compliant with the rules which stated the weight must be lifted.

Sounds like a great setup. Only danger is dropping the weight compared to very gingerly placing the weight and the pistol not firing.
Here's a fool proof repeatable test and far simpler than my over engineered rig:
Cradle/clamp that holds pistol vertical.
Piston mounted on a heavy base.
Just have to have a hook on end of piston to place over trigger and then apply metered fixed pressure air to the piston to retract the piston and pull down on trigger.
Could be entirely mechanical. Would require a base, small tank for regulated pressure, a gas pressure source, a valve, a check valve/orifice, and a single acting piston without a return spring. Valve open, piston is retracted by regulated pressure. Valve closed, piston vents atmosphere.
Or it could be electronic. Use a solenoid valve and controls could give red light/green light indication of pass or fail.
I think I have weights/forces/speeds on the brain because of subway door requirements that have maximum force, but no one can agree on maximum energy instead or whether the measurement is taken statically or captured dynamically. Or, similar to trigger pull perhaps, where along the leading edge of each door to take the measurement...
Depending on how you interpret the spec and how you use the force gauge you can pass all the doors, or not.
Back to the testing rig: Choose the piston size correctly and a standard cylinder and regulator off an air pistol could be used. That way, a current manufacturer could sponsor the thing. Listening Steyr? Walther? Feinwerkbau? Send me two or three pistols and a host of spare parts and I'll get to work. ;)

[jbshooter]

I've had guns that have failed/passed with the weight hung from left/right or vice versa sides. Work that one out!