Why we still shoot the 45?

[coker]

Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers

[Wile E Coyote]

Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers

Just shoot your 22 for the 22 portion, your 9 for center fire and a 45 for the 45.

[C. Perkins]

Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers

No.
The spirit of BE was .22 for civilian, .38 for police and .45 for military.
That is what it should be IMHO.
But BE has been gamed to two guns, the .22 and .45
So either shoot two or three guns for the 2700, that simple.
This is from a shooter that has had his BE days and is moving on but still has what is needed to do it if I want to :)

Clarence

[Jon Eulette]

Hello all

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers

HELL NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Having said that, you can shoot powder puff 45 loads. I use 3.3-3.4 gr BE with 185 or 200 lswc for shortline. I'm moody for longline and use 3.4-3.8 gr for longline.
Just learn how to shoot the 45 and you'll start to enjoy it.
My powder puff shortline loads are softer than 9mm recoil.
Jon

[coker]

My point is
In todays modern days, why dont allow the 9mm in the 45 match?

[kameljock]

Because it is a .45 match not a 9mm.

[rmca]

The images say it all...

[tceva]

Sounds like a can of worms got opened.
45acp over 9mm. I don't think so.

[aprilian]

i prefer to not shoot the 45
Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

As a new BE shooter, the .45 is hard for me to tame (but getting better every outing!), which is part of the challenge.

If the 9 is preferable for you, just shoot an 1800 and skip the .45 matches - or work with the match director to not report your third 900 to NRA or use it for winners calculation. Then you can fire 2 matches with a 9 for fun. I bet your fellow competitors will offer you their spare .45 with bunny fart loads and then your will be on the hunt for a BE built .45.

By the way, if firing .22 for multiple 900s is boring, why won't firing the 9 for multiple matches be the same thing? Keep yourself from being bored, shoot .22 900 - 9mm 900 - .45 900!

"Change yourself to match the world's expectations, it is far easier than the alternative."

[dronning]

Hello all
Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?
Cheers

No, don't be absurd, it's the .45 match.
-Dave

[CR10X]

No, I am not in favor. If anyone wants to play the game like that, then just head on over to a CMP match.

What next, let people shoot a .22 in the Center Fire Match?

We already have 3 choices; .22, any Centerfire =>.32 and .45. If someone wants to just shoot a 9mm, they can shoot the Center Fire match.

(If someone wants to win matches, I'd suggest getting a 22 and a .45 and reduce the distractions. While running matches and processing stats, I've noticed that in the long run, in each class, the more people shoot smaller calibers in the CF match and then the .45 in the .45 match; the bigger the overall winning margin is for someone else that shot the .45 in both. But then again, what do I know?)

CR

[oldcaster]

We shoot the 45 simply because it is a challenge.

I started shooting the 32 ACP in the center fire matches more because it was a challenge to get it to shoot accurately than because of recoil.

Recoil don't seem to bother me at all probably because when I shot in the AMU back in the 60's all beginners had to shoot the entire 45 portion with government hardball for a year. Our center fire scores with 38 revolver were way higher than the 45 but mainly because of the slow fire scores. Very little difference at the short line.

[RMinUT]

there is always IDPA.....

why do we shoot the .45, because they don't make a .46

[sparky]

Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers

The fact that you're shooting .45 is an integral part of the challenge. Asking to shoot 9mm in the .45 match would be like saying let's make marathons only 5km long.

[6string]

I think the OP has a point.
The 1911 is no longer the US service pistol. It hasn't been since the early 1980s. Why not just make folks shoot a Colt SAA with black powder loads?

Furthermore, the 45 stage is not the "challenge" some purport it to be.

A better 2700 structure would be 22 stage, any sights CF stage, and a service pistol stage that strictly adheres to the spirit of a service pistol, a la CMP rules. (Iron sights ONLY).
That way, you can use a 9mm, 45 or whatever as long as it is a true service pistol.

This argument that the 45 stage needs to remain such because of the "challenge" is a crock. If you want a challenge, or want to stick with tradition, follow the original rules for the 45 stage and shoot a 1911 with fixed iron sights and hardball.

Jim

[CR10X]

Just a thought, but considering the number of 1911's currently in use by Ops groups, etc., its probably being used as much as it actually ever was "used" by the military. (Just ask KC Crawford and some others that have built the guns.)

I think most will find when reviewing the scores, the .45 Aggregate is lower in overall average scores than the other Aggregates. (Of course I may be wrong, but I have only been running matches, doing stats and shooting for slightly less than 20 years. Someone else may have a better perspective.)

As far as I can tell, since the inception of the 3 gun Aggregate, the use of adjustable sights has been allowed.

If a NRA Sanctioned Match wants to use the Service Pistol (or any specific type of firearm as described in the rules), the match can be approved for that specific pistol / aggregate (Rule 1.8 and Rule 3.1, 3.1.1, & 3.1.2). And don't forget the shooters can further be stratified and Classified by Division (Rule 3.0) if applicable.

So the rules don't have to be changed, just set up a match and run one with the "Service Pistol" (.45 or 9mm) if you want to. Or just a .22 and Centerfire Aggregate, etc.

The main reason most matches have the standard format (Open, .22, any centerfire, .45) is that is what most people will show up to shoot. Any match can try something different, as long as the rules provide for it, just read the rules and put on a match. But the NRA is not stopping anyone from having a Service Pistol match with .45 or 9mm. And lots of matches are 2 Aggregates only, (.22 and CF) and I have a few shooters that shoot only the first 2 Aggs at our match.

Believe me, for the most part, match directors put on matches that will draw the most shooters.

So what's the big issue here?

CR

[Rover]

Well, SOME of the U.S. military has realized that going to 9mm was a mistake and has returned to the .45.

[10M_Stan]

I am constantly amazed at the variations made on the 1911 'Colt' 45 acp. Several companies make all the parts and a few make the compete pistol. Virtually every part can be customized and it seems there are many companies that specialize in just that. It''s also impressive that accurizing the 1911 isn't that difficult - when compared to a Beretta M9. Rarely at a range there is no .45 acp brass laying around.

The US switch from the .45 to 9mm occurred in the late 1970's. I always had the impression the move to 9mm was so the USA could supply ammunition to NATO, but the official description was to have a uniform pistol cartridge throughout all NATO forces.

[aprilian]

The 1911 is no longer the US service pistol. It hasn't been since the early 1980s.
Jim

Hi Jim,
For giggles, the .22 isn't the defacto civilian target pistol anymore, nor is the .38 the police standard anymore. So would that make a 2700 90 shots each of 9mm, 9mm, and 9mm? ;-)
Ian

[6string]

Hi Jim,
For giggles, the .22 isn't the defacto civilian target pistol anymore, nor is the .38 the police standard anymore. So would that make a 2700 90 shots each of 9mm, 9mm, and 9mm? ;-)
Ian

Hi Ian,
Good point! ...in a way. Certainly makes for good conversation!
At my club, 22 is indeed still the civilian pistol of choice. But, not by much! Plastic 9mms and 40s abound. But, I'd hardly call them target pistols, nor do I recognize their usage as having much to do with marksmanship.
For now, the 22 is THE default target pistol the world over.
As for CF, while 38 was once the convention, it is not virtually a requirement to shoot the match. You can shoot what you want.
The 45 stage moved away from being a service pistol match when they allowed cream-puff wadcutter loads, light triggers, orthopedic grips and adjustable sights. The NRA finally killed any semblance when they allowed scopes/electronic sights.
Considering how arbitrarily it has evolved, it's kind of bizarre that the modern 1911 target 45 has become the de rigeur.
I know some people consider the 45 stage as is, to be a challenge. But, to see how much folks rely on all these crutches, just look at the drop in scores for the Reeves/distinguished revolver matches.

Maybe the Canadian convention is worth looking at: just shoot an 1800, rimfire then CF? In 2700, CF and 45 have become a redundancy. Just shoot an any CF stage, use what you like, and call it a day!

By contrast, in the UK they had a classic service pistol match fired pretty much like int'l C.F., except you had to use an unmodified service pistol made no later than Armistice Day of WWI. A 1911 was fine, but not a 1911A1. Lots of Lugers, 455 Webleys, etc.
Now, THAT was a challenging service pistol match!!

But, in a way, this is all a moot point. NRA has already thrown in the towel with the Action Pistol "spray and pray" games. So, even if we came to any consensus as to what the future of Bullseye should/could be, it likely won't happen, assuming the game survives at all.
Still, this is an interesting thread, with some good comments throughout.
Also, no disrespect to the 1911 service pistol

Best Regards,
Jim