Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
-
EfrenR
Sir, your comments cross the line from criticism to personal
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43355.43348
-
WOW
Re: Sir, your comments cross the line from criticism to pers
It didn't sound like a personal attack to me. As they say in the courtroom, you were the one who opened that door, so it is fair game.
By these comments you do seem to indicate that you have a thin skin and are perhaps living vicariously through your son.
Don't like the rules??
There is a procedure to change them. USAS cannot, should not and will not change the rules based on anything typed on this board. That would lead to anarchy in the sport. We don't need that!
I suggest that you learn the procedure to change the rules and follow it. No guarantee that USAS will adopt the change but that is life. You don't like it...you change sport, move, etc.
.43362.43355
By these comments you do seem to indicate that you have a thin skin and are perhaps living vicariously through your son.
Don't like the rules??
There is a procedure to change them. USAS cannot, should not and will not change the rules based on anything typed on this board. That would lead to anarchy in the sport. We don't need that!
I suggest that you learn the procedure to change the rules and follow it. No guarantee that USAS will adopt the change but that is life. You don't like it...you change sport, move, etc.
.43362.43355
-
Chris L in NC
Close the law books, open the pistol case and pellet tin, an
: The existence of any of the scenarios above is a threat to the existence of USAS as the sole governing body of the olympic sport. As members of USAS, we owe it to USAS an obligation to help this organization correct whatever deficiencies it has, to let our views be known to them and help them reasobaly reflect such views in its policy decisions, let's continue supporting its programs by showing up at PTOs and other USAS sanctioned competitions, recruit new shooters, specially juniors, (the Phoenix Club has this goal in place, and other USAS members like Mako actively invites news shooters to PTOs), let's encourage USAS to tap the 'human resources' of NRA by ancouraging its members to compete with us, so that USA Shooting will continue to grow as the only viable organization to advance and promote our olympic sports. If the existence of USA Shooting as a governing body is lost, chances are we also destroy our olympic shooting sports. Losing USAS and recognizing a new governing body will have adverse consequences on our olympic sports which may take years to recover.
From the other lawyer on TT:
In technical legal terms, what the hey? Who said anything about losing USAS? Yeah, I went and read the statute (36 USC §220524), and sure USAS and other NGBs are supposed to do all that. There's even a procedure to complain to USOC (§220527, and whoever thinks USAS is not well run, the banana republic of USOC will probably do nothing to bolster your confidence in amateur sports governance), apply to replace an NGB with another organization (§220528, lotsa luck recruiting enough shooters to establish a whole new NGB candidate), and arbitrate it when you lose (§220529, again lotsa luck getting an arbitrator to fire USAS).
Without getting into the well-known beef that some have re 10 shooters for a national record (radical suggestion: go recruit enough NEW shooters to have 10 on the line), I think what we all ought to do in order to develop the shooting sports and win more medals is--
(1) Calm down.
(2) Post a target 10m down the hall and shoot at it. If the score is below what will win a World Cup match, shoot some more and plan out your own training routine that you are going to follow until you do score that well.
(3) Go to little matches and big matches (Part I of the Olympic Pistol Team Trials are almost upon us, see you there) and your score will show everybody else that you have your priorities in order and that you can get the job done without excuses.
(4) Then, reconsider whether USAS is really the problem. Could be, by then, you've decided it isn't.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.43367.43330
From the other lawyer on TT:
In technical legal terms, what the hey? Who said anything about losing USAS? Yeah, I went and read the statute (36 USC §220524), and sure USAS and other NGBs are supposed to do all that. There's even a procedure to complain to USOC (§220527, and whoever thinks USAS is not well run, the banana republic of USOC will probably do nothing to bolster your confidence in amateur sports governance), apply to replace an NGB with another organization (§220528, lotsa luck recruiting enough shooters to establish a whole new NGB candidate), and arbitrate it when you lose (§220529, again lotsa luck getting an arbitrator to fire USAS).
Without getting into the well-known beef that some have re 10 shooters for a national record (radical suggestion: go recruit enough NEW shooters to have 10 on the line), I think what we all ought to do in order to develop the shooting sports and win more medals is--
(1) Calm down.
(2) Post a target 10m down the hall and shoot at it. If the score is below what will win a World Cup match, shoot some more and plan out your own training routine that you are going to follow until you do score that well.
(3) Go to little matches and big matches (Part I of the Olympic Pistol Team Trials are almost upon us, see you there) and your score will show everybody else that you have your priorities in order and that you can get the job done without excuses.
(4) Then, reconsider whether USAS is really the problem. Could be, by then, you've decided it isn't.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.43367.43330
-
Slo cat
Re: Suggestions for USAShooting - Follow Up to Previous Post
: Why not take a few thousand dollars and open one of the ranges at Perry for International during the National Pistol Championships and selected Regionals? (Rifle / small bore would be a little harder due to more use of the Perry ranges). If you really want to find some good shooters to try out the sport, then why not go where the most shooter are? Range 1 or the the LR Range could be used during Pistol at Perry, set up some FP and standard relay times and let people sign up. Rent some commercial row space for AP and outclass the NRA air range.
An excellent idea. The Petrarca Range at Camp Perry is covered and sees virtually no use during the pistol phase, but there is no target turning mechanism in place. This range could be easily used for free pistol. Rapid fire could be shot using electronic timers. (The Mayleigh Cup is the only match shot on the Petrarca Range during the pistol phase.)
Mr. Gary Anderson, director of the Civilian Marksmanship Program, works closely and supportively with USAS, and the CMP has a very close relationship with the NRA in running the NRA National Matches at Camp Perry. Perhaps he could be the ambassador or coodinator in scheduling pistol ISSF type matches during the CP pistol phase.
Another positive issue: There are some shooters who would like to attend both the USAS nationals and the NRA nationals but must choose one over the other due to time, money, etc. (I am one.) This is not a cure for this, but a step towards giving more people a chance to shoot more in both disciplines.
: It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
Of the 700 or so shooters at Camp Perry during the pistol phase, the great majority have never shot any USAS discipline other than maybe air pistol. Have some loaner guns available and there will definately will be some interest, especially if it is publisized properly.
Best Regards, Slo cat
slocat-at-aol.com.43370.43306
An excellent idea. The Petrarca Range at Camp Perry is covered and sees virtually no use during the pistol phase, but there is no target turning mechanism in place. This range could be easily used for free pistol. Rapid fire could be shot using electronic timers. (The Mayleigh Cup is the only match shot on the Petrarca Range during the pistol phase.)
Mr. Gary Anderson, director of the Civilian Marksmanship Program, works closely and supportively with USAS, and the CMP has a very close relationship with the NRA in running the NRA National Matches at Camp Perry. Perhaps he could be the ambassador or coodinator in scheduling pistol ISSF type matches during the CP pistol phase.
Another positive issue: There are some shooters who would like to attend both the USAS nationals and the NRA nationals but must choose one over the other due to time, money, etc. (I am one.) This is not a cure for this, but a step towards giving more people a chance to shoot more in both disciplines.
: It would seem that for International to grow, it would be better to promote as an additional opportunity to shoot, rather than an alternative that requires a choice.
Of the 700 or so shooters at Camp Perry during the pistol phase, the great majority have never shot any USAS discipline other than maybe air pistol. Have some loaner guns available and there will definately will be some interest, especially if it is publisized properly.
Best Regards, Slo cat
slocat-at-aol.com.43370.43306
-
Alex
Is this guy on the Army team>>>>???
... if so, I hope his bosses see what and idiot he is and counsel him accordingly.
There is no place for an attitude like this, even if we taxpayers are paying his salary.
When he gets a REAL job, then he can complain- and then only if it's legit.
: Ok...I knew I'd get some discussion going with my last post.
: Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
: The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction
.43374.43325
There is no place for an attitude like this, even if we taxpayers are paying his salary.
When he gets a REAL job, then he can complain- and then only if it's legit.
: Ok...I knew I'd get some discussion going with my last post.
: Don't get me wrong, I'm a life member of both the NRA and USA Shooting. They are both very valuable to me. One because it can help me get an Olympic medal, the other because I'm very fond of my right to keep and bear arms. On occasion, I do participate in NRA matches. I just started shooting high-power again this year after an 11 year layoff. I do this for two reasons...highpower can be a lot of fun, and I just can't shoot enough good quality international matches in the area of the country I live in. A good match of any type is better than none at all (it is also helping me remember how to read wind). I also know Mr. Abalo, and his son Chris very well. Those aren't the people I was talking about previously. I also was not talking about the IJ with the "record that could have been" from Phoenix. I agree with PETE. Just look at IRL and CART with open wheel racing. Since they split, both are weaker. Divided we fall.
: The NRA and USA Shooting cannot be the same organization because of International Olympic Committee rules. There is no reason, however, that they cannot work closer together. I freely admit that USA Shooting is very deficient in many areas. Mostly that is because of budget. The reason USA Shooting exists is to cultivate top level shooters. If they can't do that, they lose USOC funding. They also realise that without some form of grass roots program, eventually the top level shooters won't be good enough anymore. Unfortunately, as cash strapped as USA Shooting is, not nearly enough money can go toward entry level programs. They can barely hold the USA Shooting Nationals on their budget, I don't see how they would be able to rent a range at Perry to and entice some of the NRA shooters to give it a try. Since the grass roots programs have traditionally been NRA, that is the type of shooting many of those shooters will likely stay with for life. This is where I wish USA Shooting and the NRA would stop having their pissing contests. If only they used the same equipment and targets, then it wouldn't be such an ordeal to shoot matches for the different organizations (it is frustrating to me that I can't shoot my 300m standard rifle in NRA highpower, because the depth of my stock forend is 90mm instead of 3.25"). Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen because of at least a couple of reasons: 1st, the higher management at the NRA still have their feelings hurt because of the split between the NRA and USA Shooting, and refuse to cooperate on anything. 2nd, there are just too many NRA shooters who wouldn't want to change all their gear over to meet USA Shooting (ISSF really) rules. I don't see why we couldn't have an NRA equipment category at USA Shooting matches. Why not? Maybe they don't shoot the finals...maybe they can't win the overall award...but maybe it could be a good introduction
.43374.43325
-
the real Eric U.
No!
It certainly appears that I have my detractors out there. If I've hurt anyone's feelings, that was not my intent. Keep the dialog flowing anyway, some of the ideas here are actually pretty good (I do like the idea of USA Shooting at Perry, I just don't know how they would fund it).
Just for some clarification: I am not on the Army team, and haven't been for 3 years. I work a regular job to support my shooting "hobby". I buy my own rifles, equipment, and ammunition. I have two sets of shooting equipment, one for my international stuff, and one my NRA. Nobody but me paid a penny for any of it. I support at least 2 all-weekend rifle clinics a year on my own time and own dime (and I don't have a lot of extra time). I also help coach the Boulder Rifle Club's jr. Highpower Team one night a week, for no better reason than it is the right thing to do. Somehow with all that, I still find time to get in a little practice.
I know I do piss some people off by stating my opinion. Seems to me that is what this forum is for (the stating your opinion part). Maybe it isn't what you want to hear, but it is only my opinion. If my ideas don't mesh with yours, that is ok, that is kind of what free speech is all about. Instead of ripping into my ideas simply because you don't like me, why not explain why it wouldn't work and give a SOLUTION of your own. I don't claim to have all the answers.
.43389.43374
Just for some clarification: I am not on the Army team, and haven't been for 3 years. I work a regular job to support my shooting "hobby". I buy my own rifles, equipment, and ammunition. I have two sets of shooting equipment, one for my international stuff, and one my NRA. Nobody but me paid a penny for any of it. I support at least 2 all-weekend rifle clinics a year on my own time and own dime (and I don't have a lot of extra time). I also help coach the Boulder Rifle Club's jr. Highpower Team one night a week, for no better reason than it is the right thing to do. Somehow with all that, I still find time to get in a little practice.
I know I do piss some people off by stating my opinion. Seems to me that is what this forum is for (the stating your opinion part). Maybe it isn't what you want to hear, but it is only my opinion. If my ideas don't mesh with yours, that is ok, that is kind of what free speech is all about. Instead of ripping into my ideas simply because you don't like me, why not explain why it wouldn't work and give a SOLUTION of your own. I don't claim to have all the answers.
.43389.43374
-
bronto48
you guys afraid of real competition??
Have to agree with Eric U's comments and take to task those of you who are engaging in the personal bashing. I do not see that he is engaging in bragging, but stating the truth.
If I go to a match and AMU or one of their recently retired members is also competing, I recognize two things, both having to do with reality, not anything else: 1) there is some really top level competition in the house, 2) I will get my butt kicked, and rightly so, and don't care, and will learn more for it than always competing against shooters of lesser ability. Sure I like to win something occasionally, but competing against the best is better yet.
I would love to try 300 meter competiton. But my NRA high power rifle is so different and so inadequate to the 300 meter task, it is hardly worth bothering. It is not a matter of 90 mm either, a lot more is involved.
The difference between the rules hurts both ways. That does not help.
Looks to me like Mr. U is paying his dues by way of his comments about working with the local junior club where he lives. I pay the dues too, by coaching our junior club. How about the rest of you out there?
Since I do run matches, I see a few things that hurt USAS. Principally, it is the requirement that each competitor be an individual USAS member. At the junior level, that pretty much wipes out most of the potential competitors. Sure, the elite juniors are members, but those vast masses of juniors who are still getting their feet wet get left out of USAS events.
USAS needs to address that problem in a big way. Another top juior club in my area has forgone any more PTO's because the support from USAS was so poor. Now, that coach just runs NRA International events. To the shooter, that accomplishes the same thing, but there is a big difference, I am sure, to USAS.
.43421.43325
If I go to a match and AMU or one of their recently retired members is also competing, I recognize two things, both having to do with reality, not anything else: 1) there is some really top level competition in the house, 2) I will get my butt kicked, and rightly so, and don't care, and will learn more for it than always competing against shooters of lesser ability. Sure I like to win something occasionally, but competing against the best is better yet.
I would love to try 300 meter competiton. But my NRA high power rifle is so different and so inadequate to the 300 meter task, it is hardly worth bothering. It is not a matter of 90 mm either, a lot more is involved.
The difference between the rules hurts both ways. That does not help.
Looks to me like Mr. U is paying his dues by way of his comments about working with the local junior club where he lives. I pay the dues too, by coaching our junior club. How about the rest of you out there?
Since I do run matches, I see a few things that hurt USAS. Principally, it is the requirement that each competitor be an individual USAS member. At the junior level, that pretty much wipes out most of the potential competitors. Sure, the elite juniors are members, but those vast masses of juniors who are still getting their feet wet get left out of USAS events.
USAS needs to address that problem in a big way. Another top juior club in my area has forgone any more PTO's because the support from USAS was so poor. Now, that coach just runs NRA International events. To the shooter, that accomplishes the same thing, but there is a big difference, I am sure, to USAS.
.43421.43325
-
EfrenR
Yes...........
....... I totally agree with you, Eric. This forum should be used for an open exchange of opinion and ideas about our shooting sports. And that's a healthy exercise of our free speech. We should discuss why an idea would not work and offer a solution. The problem with some reply-postings is that while an issue was discussed, they were spiced up with personal attacks and characterizations. Others think that when one posts an issue for discussion it opens a can of worms. Those worms should be related and relevant only to the issue being posted, and while we all agree that we have a free speech right to post our opinion, it does not give any person the right to, desciptively, 'kill the messenger'. Some people chose to cross the line of the norms of decency and respect in communicating with others. If your detractors take a step further to damage your reputation in the shooting world as a world class athlete, they should be reminded that no amount of free speech or 1st amendment right claims can protect them from legal actions (even if they post their messages under an anonymous name - they can be traced and identified.) There are U.S. Supreme Court tested state statutes that had withstood free speech defenses of authors and their publishers. You may ignore these detractors and refuse to dignify their postings by not replying or you may post a reply-to-a-reply (should be fair game) too (and let the jury of TT readers decide) or wait for them to cross the line any further (and let a jury of twelve decide to redeem you.) I really admire you for keeping your cool under fire. That shows good quality of a champion. I made some exceptions ("for the record...)" to your posting ("basement" PTOs) because, although I knew that you were not referring to us (Abalo and me), I just wanted to make it on record that those statements did not refer to us. If you noticed, I limited my comments to the issues you brought up.
You and Sandra are two of the best olympic shooting athletes in our country. Don't let these detractors detract you from your shooting activities and your remarkable support for the young shooters. I met your wife, Sandra, at last year's nationals and saw both of you at this year's nationals. You both are well-mannered, nice, good attitude, and decent couple. Good luck to you both, and thank you for shooting for America, and thank you for the medals you won for our country. Continue desplaying our flag and playing our national anthem in international shooting competitions.
We should all be united in promoting our shooting sports, post messages that deals with shooting, and avoid postings that are destructive to our sports.
(P.S. I'm relying to this particular posting of yours which was attached to an email from a fellow shooter from another state. I hope this follow-up posting goes through.)
: It certainly appears that I have my detractors out there. If I've hurt anyone's feelings, that was not my intent. Keep the dialog flowing anyway, some of the ideas here are actually pretty good (I do like the idea of USA Shooting at Perry, I just don't know how they would fund it).
: Just for some clarification: I am not on the Army team, and haven't been for 3 years. I work a regular job to support my shooting "hobby". I buy my own rifles, equipment, and ammunition. I have two sets of shooting equipment, one for my international stuff, and one my NRA. Nobody but me paid a penny for any of it. I support at least 2 all-weekend rifle clinics a year on my own time and own dime (and I don't have a lot of extra time). I also help coach the Boulder Rifle Club's jr. Highpower Team one night a week, for no better reason than it is the right thing to do. Somehow with all that, I still find time to get in a little practice.
: I know I do piss some people off by stating my opinion. Seems to me that is what this forum is for (the stating your opinion part). Maybe it isn't what you want to hear, but it is only my opinion. If my ideas don't mesh with yours, that is ok, that is kind of what free speech is all about. Instead of ripping into my ideas simply because you don't like me, why not explain why it wouldn't work and give a SOLUTION of your own. I don't claim to have all the answers.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43442.43389
You and Sandra are two of the best olympic shooting athletes in our country. Don't let these detractors detract you from your shooting activities and your remarkable support for the young shooters. I met your wife, Sandra, at last year's nationals and saw both of you at this year's nationals. You both are well-mannered, nice, good attitude, and decent couple. Good luck to you both, and thank you for shooting for America, and thank you for the medals you won for our country. Continue desplaying our flag and playing our national anthem in international shooting competitions.
We should all be united in promoting our shooting sports, post messages that deals with shooting, and avoid postings that are destructive to our sports.
(P.S. I'm relying to this particular posting of yours which was attached to an email from a fellow shooter from another state. I hope this follow-up posting goes through.)
: It certainly appears that I have my detractors out there. If I've hurt anyone's feelings, that was not my intent. Keep the dialog flowing anyway, some of the ideas here are actually pretty good (I do like the idea of USA Shooting at Perry, I just don't know how they would fund it).
: Just for some clarification: I am not on the Army team, and haven't been for 3 years. I work a regular job to support my shooting "hobby". I buy my own rifles, equipment, and ammunition. I have two sets of shooting equipment, one for my international stuff, and one my NRA. Nobody but me paid a penny for any of it. I support at least 2 all-weekend rifle clinics a year on my own time and own dime (and I don't have a lot of extra time). I also help coach the Boulder Rifle Club's jr. Highpower Team one night a week, for no better reason than it is the right thing to do. Somehow with all that, I still find time to get in a little practice.
: I know I do piss some people off by stating my opinion. Seems to me that is what this forum is for (the stating your opinion part). Maybe it isn't what you want to hear, but it is only my opinion. If my ideas don't mesh with yours, that is ok, that is kind of what free speech is all about. Instead of ripping into my ideas simply because you don't like me, why not explain why it wouldn't work and give a SOLUTION of your own. I don't claim to have all the answers.
ratherbe-at-adelphia.net.43442.43389