I am a competitor like most of you with no standing with CMP, NRA, or USAS. This thread is for competitors, volunteers, juniors, parents, and anyone else who has attended the National Matches at any time. Please read through this longer than I hoped introduction so it’s purpose can be fully realized. I have started this thread with a clean profile to start this discussion in as neutral a way as possible. For those who find distrust in this anonymity, please give this a chance and put your trust in the replies to follow.
The National Matches have seen some profound changes over the last several years. Smallbore has moved to a new, now seen as less glamorous home, NRA high power will move this year to a potentially more glamorous home, and pistol dates are simply not convenient between NRA and CMP. Perry used to have what many would like to consider an almost perfect schedule. Pistol between NRA and CMP rolled together, followed by smallbore, CMP HP, and finally NRA HP. Commercial row was our candy store, on base housing made for a community feel for those who wanted it, and a town that looked forward to our arrival each summer. Add to this USAS Nationals which plugged itself in before the National Matches to not make the competitors choose between the events.
Things have changed. The chances of things going back to the way they were are not high. The post concerning an agreement between the CMP and NRA breathed life into the hope of things returning to normal. However, it would be silly to assume CMP would run the events the same way the NRA did. CMP will put their own spin on the events as would be their right if they ran them.
What I am hoping for out of this thread is to allow us to consider what we want as competitors. For example, if the traditional calendar were to return with a commercial row, but all the matches happened at Camp Atterbury, would you find that acceptable? What do you as a competitor want to see in terms of:
• Calendar (consideration for shooting multiple disciplines, NRA, CMP, and USAS)
• Vendors (who, where, when, and for how long)
• Entry fees (please mention what you have been paying and might be willing to pay as you feel comfortable)
• Housing (on base and/or off)
• Course of fire (shorter, longer, something new)
• Targets (electronic, paper, or both)
• Location (ex. Camp Perry, Camp Atterbury, Cardinal Range, Talladega)
• Camps and Training (ex. SAFS, Jr Rifle Camp, Pistol Camp, Coach Schools, Gunsmithing)
• Anything else (concerts, cook-outs, fun matches, side matches, finals, entry music, etc.)
• Volunteers (paid or unpaid, housing, food, duration, training)
The National Matches have been going on for over 100 years, and either all these changes didn’t have to happen, or much more likely, now is simply the time changes will have happened when history looks back. The taste of distrust between the competitors and governing organizations is in the air as thick as syrup. I intend for this thread to be a place where we take a chill pill on that, and discuss what we as competitors want, can live with, can live without, and have dream of possibly seeing.
A National Match Discussion
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Re: A National Match Discussion
The HP range at Atterbury faces S/SE (last time I was there & doubt it's changed); a terrible direction for shooters. The invite I received from NRA talks up the attractions of that range, but fails to note that salient point. I don't see that as a place to permanently hold National Championships for that reason alone.
Re: A National Match Discussion
If the rumors are true that the CMP will take responsibility for Smallbore, Pistol and High Power National Matches at Camp Perry and electronic targets are delayed, possibly indefinitely, then there is a good chance things will go back to the way they were (or pretty close). The bigger question: is that really a good thing? I have enjoyed every one of the last 15 years at Camp Perry, but I have also seen declining entries almost every year.
Re: A National Match Discussion
I plan to attend this year after taking about 8 years off. I spent the first 25 summers of my life there attending smallbore with my parents. This year I'm going for CMP pistol weekend. Even if NRA Bullseye butted up to it, I wouldn't be able to attend. As a kid, I had a dream of retiring and spending an entire month up there shooting. Lots of childhood memories.
I have heard that various vendors may or may not be attending various events. Smallbore has only a few vendors attending at all now. Had hoped to stock up on some 22 ammo to use in both rifle and pistol. Wouldn't put other reloading materials out of the question either.
Electronic targets are the way of the future for the sport. They're still expensive now, but have come down drastically in price already. But they also pose new problems. I doubt anyone would want an 11yo junior dragging a frame from 50 to 100y with a $2000 electronic target on it. Nor would they like that same junior opening up the target to replace the target face when changing distances. Smallbore shooters aren't used to having to change firing lines like high power. So either we would have to get used to moving around or there would have to be three separate targets for every firing point. Or the course of fire changes to only 2 distances for conventional prone, and maybe use the 50m reduced target at 50y. Electronic targets would make that change pretty easy. And we haven't talked about the covered firing line yet.
For me, Nationals needs to feel like a national event in management, facility, and attendance. I have not been to Bristol, but it is described to me as a big regional. I have heard many people mention missing the awards being in the old, somewhat unique smelling, theater at Perry. A better awards venue alone would go a long way from what I hear.
Look at other parts of sport around the world. Olympic bidding may be out of control, but it is always a one heck of a site and event. New Yankee stadium vs old Yankee Stadium, imagine growing up decades a Yankees fan and experiencing that change. Any of the NFL teams moving now and what they will, eventually, move into. Tennis moved from Forest Hills to the Billie Jean King Center. All moves for the better, bigger, grander.
Cost has been a common cause mentioned for the moves. I have heard people in the know say the Ohio National Guard balances their budget on the National Matches. Perhaps they have discovered they have a monopoly on the venue and are exploiting it. I doubt CMP will move with the investment they have put in to the facilities there, but imagine a bidding war between Atterbury and Perry. I don't know what Cardinal would cost, but throw them in too. Along with Talladega for the sake of argument (I know they probably don't have the capacity). Most other nationals in other sports either have a rotation of sites or a bidding process. Sure shooting is different in the amount of money available, but industry standards and economics still apply.
Just my 2 cents.
I have heard that various vendors may or may not be attending various events. Smallbore has only a few vendors attending at all now. Had hoped to stock up on some 22 ammo to use in both rifle and pistol. Wouldn't put other reloading materials out of the question either.
Electronic targets are the way of the future for the sport. They're still expensive now, but have come down drastically in price already. But they also pose new problems. I doubt anyone would want an 11yo junior dragging a frame from 50 to 100y with a $2000 electronic target on it. Nor would they like that same junior opening up the target to replace the target face when changing distances. Smallbore shooters aren't used to having to change firing lines like high power. So either we would have to get used to moving around or there would have to be three separate targets for every firing point. Or the course of fire changes to only 2 distances for conventional prone, and maybe use the 50m reduced target at 50y. Electronic targets would make that change pretty easy. And we haven't talked about the covered firing line yet.
For me, Nationals needs to feel like a national event in management, facility, and attendance. I have not been to Bristol, but it is described to me as a big regional. I have heard many people mention missing the awards being in the old, somewhat unique smelling, theater at Perry. A better awards venue alone would go a long way from what I hear.
Look at other parts of sport around the world. Olympic bidding may be out of control, but it is always a one heck of a site and event. New Yankee stadium vs old Yankee Stadium, imagine growing up decades a Yankees fan and experiencing that change. Any of the NFL teams moving now and what they will, eventually, move into. Tennis moved from Forest Hills to the Billie Jean King Center. All moves for the better, bigger, grander.
Cost has been a common cause mentioned for the moves. I have heard people in the know say the Ohio National Guard balances their budget on the National Matches. Perhaps they have discovered they have a monopoly on the venue and are exploiting it. I doubt CMP will move with the investment they have put in to the facilities there, but imagine a bidding war between Atterbury and Perry. I don't know what Cardinal would cost, but throw them in too. Along with Talladega for the sake of argument (I know they probably don't have the capacity). Most other nationals in other sports either have a rotation of sites or a bidding process. Sure shooting is different in the amount of money available, but industry standards and economics still apply.
Just my 2 cents.
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redschietti
- Posts: 386
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Re: A National Match Discussion
Ive said it before, if you want the young generation to shoot at a national level match you must have electronics. We dont mind shooting on paper at home but if we are going to spend $1000 on a big match we are going to pick one shot on electronics. Its a no brainer decision as a parent and as a team coach.
Re: A National Match Discussion
I guess the rifle equipment race has ended (for the time being). Now it is a race regarding the use of E targets.
Who has the best e targets, targets facing the "right way", easiest target change over and on and on.
Cant wait till a big e target match, a transformer blows or lightning strikes nearby and fries all the scores, wires (if any), blows out monitors. etc.
Manually changing paper targets is a right of passage as is doing pit service IMHO. Pit service is also a place to make friendships, stay in shape IMHO.
Who has the best e targets, targets facing the "right way", easiest target change over and on and on.
Cant wait till a big e target match, a transformer blows or lightning strikes nearby and fries all the scores, wires (if any), blows out monitors. etc.
Manually changing paper targets is a right of passage as is doing pit service IMHO. Pit service is also a place to make friendships, stay in shape IMHO.
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ghillieman
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:07 am
- Location: Mineola, TX
Re: A National Match Discussion
I really dislike wading through calf deep mud, that's really just reconstituted pig feces from 100+ years ago. And smells like it too....
2016 was not as bad as far as the mud goes, but Camp Perry was under a drought then too.
A slightly raised berm would solve that problem.
I'm also not a big fan of taking thousands of dollars worth of pistols and gear and getting them soaked in the rain.
2016 was not as bad as far as the mud goes, but Camp Perry was under a drought then too.
A slightly raised berm would solve that problem.
I'm also not a big fan of taking thousands of dollars worth of pistols and gear and getting them soaked in the rain.
Re: A National Match Discussion
Sounds like you might be better suited for indoor air pistol. The outdoors aren't for everyone!ghillieman wrote:I really dislike wading through calf deep mud, that's really just reconstituted pig feces from 100+ years ago. And smells like it too....
2016 was not as bad as far as the mud goes, but Camp Perry was under a drought then too.
A slightly raised berm would solve that problem.
I'm also not a big fan of taking thousands of dollars worth of pistols and gear and getting them soaked in the rain.
Re: A National Match Discussion
This, big time. Holding National-level pistol matches on an uncovered, unpaved field is not the way to attract shooters. If the organizers don't want to bother with proper facilities, move the matches elsewhere.ghillieman wrote:I really dislike wading through calf deep mud, that's really just reconstituted pig feces from 100+ years ago. And smells like it too....
2016 was not as bad as far as the mud goes, but Camp Perry was under a drought then too.
A slightly raised berm would solve that problem.
I'm also not a big fan of taking thousands of dollars worth of pistols and gear and getting them soaked in the rain.
Re: A National Match Discussion
Like Soupy I am a smallbore shooter. The first time I went to Perry it rained for 5 of 6 days . It was shoot, dry your eqpt. do it again tomorrow. I hated it so much I went back every year for 35 years.
Its the National Championships folks. It should be a challenge. In smallbore if you can shoot half minute groups and read a 25 MPH wind within half a minute you might have an outside chance of winning.
Like someone said, "its not for everybody".
Its the National Championships folks. It should be a challenge. In smallbore if you can shoot half minute groups and read a 25 MPH wind within half a minute you might have an outside chance of winning.
Like someone said, "its not for everybody".
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RED RAIDER
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:52 pm
Re: A National Match Discussion
gwsb wrote:Like Soupy I am a smallbore shooter. The first time I went to Perry it rained for 5 of 6 days . It was shoot, dry your eqpt. do it again tomorrow. I hated it so much I went back every year for 35 years.
Its the National Championships folks. It should be a challenge. In smallbore if you can shoot half minute groups and read a 25 MPH wind within half a minute you might have an outside chance of winning.
Like someone said, "its not for everybody".
My $0.02
As a parent of a junior small bore rifle shooter. We will shoot in the rain and wind without complaint. My problem is that I pay for all the equipment that my kid uses. Rain & MUD are hell on the equipment. I don't have endless funds, and do my best to keep my kid in good equipment. Having covered firing points is a must have, if you want to attract people like me. I could care less about electronic scoring, it is very nice to have but not a must have.
Re: A National Match Discussion
I'd have to agree here. Smallbore paid for covered firing points about 12 years ago through increased match fees. The other disciplines benefited from the same covered equipment in the assembly areas. In 2013, 50% of that was destroyed by a storm. Increase the fees a very small amount for smallbore to replace the damaged portions. Maybe even for the other disciplines too since they do get use of it.RED RAIDER wrote:gwsb wrote:Like Soupy I am a smallbore shooter. The first time I went to Perry it rained for 5 of 6 days . It was shoot, dry your eqpt. do it again tomorrow. I hated it so much I went back every year for 35 years.
Its the National Championships folks. It should be a challenge. In smallbore if you can shoot half minute groups and read a 25 MPH wind within half a minute you might have an outside chance of winning.
Like someone said, "its not for everybody".
My $0.02
As a parent of a junior small bore rifle shooter. We will shoot in the rain and wind without complaint. My problem is that I pay for all the equipment that my kid uses. Rain & MUD are hell on the equipment. I don't have endless funds, and do my best to keep my kid in good equipment. Having covered firing points is a must have, if you want to attract people like me. I could care less about electronic scoring, it is very nice to have but not a must have.
Re: A National Match Discussion
ill add another reply later but this is "just in" from about monday no less..
the NRA has given their High Power Championships (maybe pistol too) and Smallbore Championships to the CMP to conduct, AT Camp Perry effective 2018...
Al Cohrs/Coors (ive seen it spelled both ways), an NRA President has unilaterally decided that this will take effect regardless of what the NRA board of directors agreed upon sometime last year when the NRA made the big announcement they were leaving Perry for Atterbury...
there is a HUGE discussion on this over at USRifleteams.com or .org or whatever their URL ends in. Shawn Agne of the Central Indiana High Power organization has been behind a lot of the communications with the NRA and the base Commander there, working to make the 2017 NRA (HiPo) Championships come off without a hitch and working with base personnel to set up e-targets, parking, work out accomodations etc...
ill weigh in on the rest of the subject matter when i can use a computer and not a tablet...
the NRA has given their High Power Championships (maybe pistol too) and Smallbore Championships to the CMP to conduct, AT Camp Perry effective 2018...
Al Cohrs/Coors (ive seen it spelled both ways), an NRA President has unilaterally decided that this will take effect regardless of what the NRA board of directors agreed upon sometime last year when the NRA made the big announcement they were leaving Perry for Atterbury...
there is a HUGE discussion on this over at USRifleteams.com or .org or whatever their URL ends in. Shawn Agne of the Central Indiana High Power organization has been behind a lot of the communications with the NRA and the base Commander there, working to make the 2017 NRA (HiPo) Championships come off without a hitch and working with base personnel to set up e-targets, parking, work out accomodations etc...
ill weigh in on the rest of the subject matter when i can use a computer and not a tablet...
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Hap Rocketto
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:30 am
- Location: Rhode Island
Re: A National Match Discussion
Colleagues,
As I wrote on the National Match website:
The great whirlwind that fans the internet’s flames is mostly rumor, gossip, mistrust, confusion, anxiety, supposition, innuendo, and wishful thinking and is generating a great deal of Henny Pennyism.
We have been through this with smallbore and they have my empathy.
Perhaps it is best to take everything cum grano salis until the two organizations make official public statements.
Stay Calm and Keep Shooting.
Best,
Hap
As I wrote on the National Match website:
The great whirlwind that fans the internet’s flames is mostly rumor, gossip, mistrust, confusion, anxiety, supposition, innuendo, and wishful thinking and is generating a great deal of Henny Pennyism.
We have been through this with smallbore and they have my empathy.
Perhaps it is best to take everything cum grano salis until the two organizations make official public statements.
Stay Calm and Keep Shooting.
Best,
Hap
Re: A National Match Discussion
Well Hap, you are on the Smallbore Committee. Why don't you fill us in on where things stand?
Maybe it is because the NRA will not tell us anything that the rumor mill is cranked up. Ever since the first announcement on Smallbore moving to Bristol for "2 years" which was crap from the very first we have been fed a steady diet of half-truths, rumors, and manure.
Maybe it is because the NRA will not tell us anything that the rumor mill is cranked up. Ever since the first announcement on Smallbore moving to Bristol for "2 years" which was crap from the very first we have been fed a steady diet of half-truths, rumors, and manure.
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Hap Rocketto
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:30 am
- Location: Rhode Island
Re: A National Match Discussion
I'd like to be able to fill you in on things. However, my two claims to NRA fame are 1. I have twice been the lowest vote getter in the NRA BOD elections and 2. have the shortest tenure on record as a member of the Smallbore Committee, one meeting.
At the SB Committee meeting following the first SB match at Bristol I presented what I considered, as did many others, a well balanced 20 page report on Perry v. Bristol. I was not asked back.
Those who I suspect may have played a role in my not being tendered an invitation to return for a second SB Committee meeting are no longer part of the NRA Competitive Division hierarchy. One can only hope that with a change in leadership the days of the competitive community being treated like the crop in a mushroom farm are over.
Best,
Hap
At the SB Committee meeting following the first SB match at Bristol I presented what I considered, as did many others, a well balanced 20 page report on Perry v. Bristol. I was not asked back.
Those who I suspect may have played a role in my not being tendered an invitation to return for a second SB Committee meeting are no longer part of the NRA Competitive Division hierarchy. One can only hope that with a change in leadership the days of the competitive community being treated like the crop in a mushroom farm are over.
Best,
Hap
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A Competitor
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:31 pm
Re: A National Match Discussion
Let's please assume an announcement will be made between the NRA and CMP when any deal is signed, sealed, and delivered. Efforts to quote officially announced information are appreciated.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Re: A National Match Discussion
It's funny on some level about the firing points being covered because I remember taking a beating from HP shooters about us needing to have it. Our joke back was while we looked for the high ground to put our mats, HP shooters aim for the mud puddles.
Shooting facilities have certainly taken a good turn in aesthetics. I've noticed a heavy turn in juniors now to only attend matches at the facilities that simply look the best, rather than seeking out where the best shooters go. Probably a generational thing, but that's something a National event would have to cater to.
I plan to attend Parry for the first time this summer for pistol. Never been for anything but smallbore. I've heard the target system is nearing the end of it's lifespan, and have no idea how it works. Is there a pistol shooter that could comment on a covered firing line being possible for pistol? Maybe the turning target system has removable frames that can be carried to holders at 50y? I doubt a covered line for HP will be a reality with the way matches are structured. Talladega has 3 electronic targets per firing point from what I understand. That, or the HP competitors all grab a pole and carry it down range :-P
I would like to keep the firing line grass though, takes the edge off for over a week straight to shooting on your knees and elbows.
Shooting facilities have certainly taken a good turn in aesthetics. I've noticed a heavy turn in juniors now to only attend matches at the facilities that simply look the best, rather than seeking out where the best shooters go. Probably a generational thing, but that's something a National event would have to cater to.
I plan to attend Parry for the first time this summer for pistol. Never been for anything but smallbore. I've heard the target system is nearing the end of it's lifespan, and have no idea how it works. Is there a pistol shooter that could comment on a covered firing line being possible for pistol? Maybe the turning target system has removable frames that can be carried to holders at 50y? I doubt a covered line for HP will be a reality with the way matches are structured. Talladega has 3 electronic targets per firing point from what I understand. That, or the HP competitors all grab a pole and carry it down range :-P
I would like to keep the firing line grass though, takes the edge off for over a week straight to shooting on your knees and elbows.
Re: A National Match Discussion
Sorry Hap I stand corrected. I thought I had seen somewhere that you were on the SB committee. Not too long ago I asked a member of the BOD, that we both know, who was on the committee and she refused to tell me.
Also I have voted for you every time you were on the ballot (except when I don't get the ballot issue) so don't blame me. However, I moved 5 years ago and despite multiple requests to change my address the NRA continues to refuse to send me my ballot issue or any other issue of the Rifleman.
Also I have voted for you every time you were on the ballot (except when I don't get the ballot issue) so don't blame me. However, I moved 5 years ago and despite multiple requests to change my address the NRA continues to refuse to send me my ballot issue or any other issue of the Rifleman.
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Hap Rocketto
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:30 am
- Location: Rhode Island
Re: A National Match Discussion
I appreciate your support and no offense taken.
Best,
Hap
Best,
Hap