How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
scerir-at-libero.it.42155.0
mouche
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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David Levene
Re: mouche
: How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.42156.42155
Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.42156.42155
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paul
Re: mouche
: : How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
: Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
X ring is certainly the most common US designation that I know. The other term that I have read and heard is "inner ten".
Mind you, all of that is coming from a Canadio-Americano-Pole living in Germany. Hmmm...
paulkierkus-at-hotmail.com.42159.42156
: Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
X ring is certainly the most common US designation that I know. The other term that I have read and heard is "inner ten".
Mind you, all of that is coming from a Canadio-Americano-Pole living in Germany. Hmmm...
paulkierkus-at-hotmail.com.42159.42156
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C.S. Richardson
Re: mouche
: How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
Here in the southern part of the U. S. of A. Mouche, or moosh, is what you do to the trigger rather than jerk it, as in "Moosh it easy there boy, don't honk down on it so hard."
On NRA targets the inner ring has an X (roman numeral ten) printed in it. In NRA competition it is an "X" 'cause it says so right there on the target.
International targets, having no designation on the target, are generally called "inner tens" by those who shoot 'em. On the end of the line I usually shoot on we don't have to worry about it too much.
Those of us who shoot both (cross-shooters?, hetero-shooters?, bi-shooters?) tend to call them "X" out of habit and put X on the scorecard; some of the more sophisticated shooters put a circle around a 10.
BTW, those of us who come from the southern part of the U.S. of A. don't generally like to be called Anglo-Americans and tend to call ourselves "Mercuns" as in "I'm a Mercun, where's ya'll from?" Ain't that right, Bubba?
FWIW, YMMV, EIEIO
C.S.
mimmp-at-castlegate.net.42161.42155
Here in the southern part of the U. S. of A. Mouche, or moosh, is what you do to the trigger rather than jerk it, as in "Moosh it easy there boy, don't honk down on it so hard."
On NRA targets the inner ring has an X (roman numeral ten) printed in it. In NRA competition it is an "X" 'cause it says so right there on the target.
International targets, having no designation on the target, are generally called "inner tens" by those who shoot 'em. On the end of the line I usually shoot on we don't have to worry about it too much.
Those of us who shoot both (cross-shooters?, hetero-shooters?, bi-shooters?) tend to call them "X" out of habit and put X on the scorecard; some of the more sophisticated shooters put a circle around a 10.
BTW, those of us who come from the southern part of the U.S. of A. don't generally like to be called Anglo-Americans and tend to call ourselves "Mercuns" as in "I'm a Mercun, where's ya'll from?" Ain't that right, Bubba?
FWIW, YMMV, EIEIO
C.S.
mimmp-at-castlegate.net.42161.42155
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Mac
Re: mouche
: : How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
: Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
Also known in the land of the Pict as a "carton".
.42162.42156
: Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
Also known in the land of the Pict as a "carton".
.42162.42156
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Mako
"deep ten?"
: : How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
: Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.42168.42156
: Commonly known as the "X" ring (but that's from a Brit not an Anglo-American)
makofoto-at-earthlink.net.42168.42156
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scerir
Re: mouche
: BTW, those of us who come from the southern part of the U.S. of A. don't generally like to be called Anglo-Americans and tend to call ourselves "Mercuns" as in "I'm a Mercun, where's ya'll from?" Ain't that right, Bubba?
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Haha. Good. I understand. It's the same here in Italy. Italy, you know, it's not a country, and
never was a country (after the Roman Empire!). So we are Neapolitans, Romans, Florentines, Tuscans, etc.
Btw mouche (fly) is the french term for deep o X ten. And we use mouche in Italy, because it is elegant....
scerir-at-libero.it.42177.42161
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Haha. Good. I understand. It's the same here in Italy. Italy, you know, it's not a country, and
never was a country (after the Roman Empire!). So we are Neapolitans, Romans, Florentines, Tuscans, etc.
Btw mouche (fly) is the french term for deep o X ten. And we use mouche in Italy, because it is elegant....
scerir-at-libero.it.42177.42161
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Larry Lohkamp
by rule - inner 10
The ISSF, USAS, and even the NRA refer to a ring inside the 10-ring as an inner-10 in both target specification and scoring sections of their rulebooks.
NRA conventional pistol (and probably other disciplines not covered by the board) have an X-ring.
I suppose that you can call it anything you want.
: How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
.42184.42155
NRA conventional pistol (and probably other disciplines not covered by the board) have an X-ring.
I suppose that you can call it anything you want.
: How do you (angloamericans) call the very center of the target, I mean the inner circle in the 10 ring? "Mouche"?
.42184.42155
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Gaines Blackwell
Re: mouche
: : BTW, those of us who come from the southern part of the U.S. of A. don't generally like to be called Anglo-Americans and tend to call ourselves "Mercuns" as in "I'm a Mercun, where's ya'll from?" Ain't that right, Bubba?
: ------------
: Haha. Good. I understand. It's the same here in Italy. Italy, you know, it's not a country, and
: never was a country (after the Roman Empire!). So we are Neapolitans, Romans, Florentines,
Tuscans, etc.
Scerir, where in Italy are you? Or perhaps I should ask what region! I have spent 4 summers in Cortona, on the Tuscany-Umbria border, near Arezzo, teaching with The University of Georgia.Great food. I found a rather wonderful stone rifle range built in the 1930's but abandoned after WW11. I had always wanted to shoot there. I guess I qualify as a Mercun, being from Alabama, much further south than Bubba.
: Btw mouche (fly) is the french term for deep o X ten. And we use mouche in Italy, because it is elegant....
gtblackwell-at-charter.net.42189.42177
: ------------
: Haha. Good. I understand. It's the same here in Italy. Italy, you know, it's not a country, and
: never was a country (after the Roman Empire!). So we are Neapolitans, Romans, Florentines,
Tuscans, etc.
Scerir, where in Italy are you? Or perhaps I should ask what region! I have spent 4 summers in Cortona, on the Tuscany-Umbria border, near Arezzo, teaching with The University of Georgia.Great food. I found a rather wonderful stone rifle range built in the 1930's but abandoned after WW11. I had always wanted to shoot there. I guess I qualify as a Mercun, being from Alabama, much further south than Bubba.
: Btw mouche (fly) is the french term for deep o X ten. And we use mouche in Italy, because it is elegant....
gtblackwell-at-charter.net.42189.42177
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scerir
Re: mouche
: Scerir, where in Italy are you? Or perhaps I should ask what region! I have spent 4 summers in Cortona, on the Tuscany-Umbria border, near Arezzo, teaching with The University of Georgia. Great food.
__________
I live in Rome, but also in the region named Abruzzo (formerly Abruzzo & Molise, formerly Abruzzi) by the Adriatic sea (actually a salty
big lake now!). Yes Tuscany, Umbria, and pieces of Emilia-Romagna and Marche are, perhaps, the most interesting parts of this country, called Italy. I mean the most 'real', still keeping the old qualities, foods, characters, spirits, etc.
Many other regions are mixed, in the sense that you can still find old 'values' but among the new rubbish. Regards, s.
scerir-at-libero.it.42197.42189
__________
I live in Rome, but also in the region named Abruzzo (formerly Abruzzo & Molise, formerly Abruzzi) by the Adriatic sea (actually a salty
big lake now!). Yes Tuscany, Umbria, and pieces of Emilia-Romagna and Marche are, perhaps, the most interesting parts of this country, called Italy. I mean the most 'real', still keeping the old qualities, foods, characters, spirits, etc.
Many other regions are mixed, in the sense that you can still find old 'values' but among the new rubbish. Regards, s.
scerir-at-libero.it.42197.42189
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Chris L in NC
I thought a "mouche" was the biggest deer
Also famous on TV, as in "now Natasha, we finish off mouche and squirrel."
I used to think Xs were 11 points and the first rifle match I shot long ago, scored the other guy's target that way. There were some puzzled looks. Now I know they are only tie breakers.
They use the letter X because that is Roman for 10. On the old old NRA targets, the highest score was 5, and the innermost ring was a V. I thought maybe that stood for "victory" or "vanquish" or "valor" but by the same logic as the X, V is Roman for 5.
My question would be, why don't they use inner 10s as tie breakers in ISSF instead of having shoot-offs to get in the finals? As it is, all you get are the cool ripples on the Sius-Ascor screen.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42225.42155
I used to think Xs were 11 points and the first rifle match I shot long ago, scored the other guy's target that way. There were some puzzled looks. Now I know they are only tie breakers.
They use the letter X because that is Roman for 10. On the old old NRA targets, the highest score was 5, and the innermost ring was a V. I thought maybe that stood for "victory" or "vanquish" or "valor" but by the same logic as the X, V is Roman for 5.
My question would be, why don't they use inner 10s as tie breakers in ISSF instead of having shoot-offs to get in the finals? As it is, all you get are the cool ripples on the Sius-Ascor screen.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42225.42155
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Larry Lohkamp
Re: I thought a "mouche" was the biggest deer
You do this enough that you aught to break down and buy a rulebook. Inner 10's are used to break ties - stage 3, last resort use. I only shoot pistol, bust as best as I can tell, the shoot-out is only used for ties for the first 3 places of 25-meter events. That would be Rapid Fire, Sport Pistol, Center Fire Pistol, and Standard Pistol.
: Also famous on TV, as in "now Natasha, we finish off mouche and squirrel."
: I used to think Xs were 11 points and the first rifle match I shot long ago, scored the other guy's target that way. There were some puzzled looks. Now I know they are only tie breakers.
: They use the letter X because that is Roman for 10. On the old old NRA targets, the highest score was 5, and the innermost ring was a V. I thought maybe that stood for "victory" or "vanquish" or "valor" but by the same logic as the X, V is Roman for 5.
: My question would be, why don't they use inner 10s as tie breakers in ISSF instead of having shoot-offs to get in the finals? As it is, all you get are the cool ripples on the Sius-Ascor screen.
.42228.42225
: Also famous on TV, as in "now Natasha, we finish off mouche and squirrel."
: I used to think Xs were 11 points and the first rifle match I shot long ago, scored the other guy's target that way. There were some puzzled looks. Now I know they are only tie breakers.
: They use the letter X because that is Roman for 10. On the old old NRA targets, the highest score was 5, and the innermost ring was a V. I thought maybe that stood for "victory" or "vanquish" or "valor" but by the same logic as the X, V is Roman for 5.
: My question would be, why don't they use inner 10s as tie breakers in ISSF instead of having shoot-offs to get in the finals? As it is, all you get are the cool ripples on the Sius-Ascor screen.
.42228.42225
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Chris L in NC
RF qual ties: Conflict between 8.12.2.1-.3 and 8.14.2.1?
I DID buy a rulebook. You can download rules for free from the ISSF site. (and it's "ought" not "aught" smarty pants!!!!) You're right, inner 10s do count for something and I was under the impression they didn't, which I will explain shortly. In any case, inner 10s don't count for nearly enough if you ax me.
There shouldn't be ties going into RF finals, but there are.
"8.12.2 Ties – Individual for the first eight places 50 m Pistol, 10 m
Air Pistol; and for 4th to 8th place the 25 m events (for places
1 to 3 see below)
In breaking ties order of ranking must be determined by:
8.12.2.1 The highest score of the last ten shot series working backward
by 10 shot series until the tie is broken.
8.12.2.2 The highest number of 10’s, 9’s, 8’s, etc.
8.12.2.3 The highest number of inner tens.
8.12.2.4 If any ties remain, the shooters must have the same ranking."
My bust; they do count for something. Well, that still blows--you have to go through two weird procedures when it would be simpler to just put the number of inner 10s on the competitor's score. After all, that's how you do it for NRA bullseye/highpower. Ooops, there's the problem--ISSF can't do anything like the NRA. That wouldn't be proper, or something.
Specifically for RF:
"8.14.2.1 The classification for the first eight (8) places in 50 m Pistol, 10
m Air Pistol and 25 m Pistol Women or for the first six (6) places in
25 m Rapid Fire Pistol in the Qualification rounds will be made
according to the rules set down in 8.12.2.1 to 8.12.2.3.
8.14.2.2 When in Rapid Fire Pistol there are more than six (6) eligible
for the Finals start because of tied scores, the tie will be broken
by shoot-off."
Even though there's a tiebreaking procedure, it seems to me they just have a shoot-off anytime people have the same raw qualification score, at least in RF. Here's the way it went at the Changwon WC:
6 PODHRASKY, Martin CZE 582 99.2 / 681.2 quali-shoot-off: 49
7 LI, Bowei CHN 582 quali-shoot-off: 48
8 VOKHMIANIN, Vladimir KAZ 582 quali-shoot-off: 48
9 JI, Haiping CHN 582 quali-shoot-off: 48
10 TEHAUSHEV, Sabin BUL 582 quali-shoot-off: 45
You think ALL FIVE SHOOTERS had the exact same number of 10s, 9s, 8s etc., and the exact same score in all stages of the match, and the exact same number of inner 10s?
In Zagreb, two guys each got 585 and there was a shoot-off. In Atlanta last year, there were three guys with 586 all in a shoot-off. Again, if they had been following the 8.12.2 procedure, it's almost certain SOMEbody would lose.
So, what is the deal with ties going into the RF finals? Do they automatically have a shoot-off? Or am I missing yet another rule? there's lots of them.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42229.42228
There shouldn't be ties going into RF finals, but there are.
"8.12.2 Ties – Individual for the first eight places 50 m Pistol, 10 m
Air Pistol; and for 4th to 8th place the 25 m events (for places
1 to 3 see below)
In breaking ties order of ranking must be determined by:
8.12.2.1 The highest score of the last ten shot series working backward
by 10 shot series until the tie is broken.
8.12.2.2 The highest number of 10’s, 9’s, 8’s, etc.
8.12.2.3 The highest number of inner tens.
8.12.2.4 If any ties remain, the shooters must have the same ranking."
My bust; they do count for something. Well, that still blows--you have to go through two weird procedures when it would be simpler to just put the number of inner 10s on the competitor's score. After all, that's how you do it for NRA bullseye/highpower. Ooops, there's the problem--ISSF can't do anything like the NRA. That wouldn't be proper, or something.
Specifically for RF:
"8.14.2.1 The classification for the first eight (8) places in 50 m Pistol, 10
m Air Pistol and 25 m Pistol Women or for the first six (6) places in
25 m Rapid Fire Pistol in the Qualification rounds will be made
according to the rules set down in 8.12.2.1 to 8.12.2.3.
8.14.2.2 When in Rapid Fire Pistol there are more than six (6) eligible
for the Finals start because of tied scores, the tie will be broken
by shoot-off."
Even though there's a tiebreaking procedure, it seems to me they just have a shoot-off anytime people have the same raw qualification score, at least in RF. Here's the way it went at the Changwon WC:
6 PODHRASKY, Martin CZE 582 99.2 / 681.2 quali-shoot-off: 49
7 LI, Bowei CHN 582 quali-shoot-off: 48
8 VOKHMIANIN, Vladimir KAZ 582 quali-shoot-off: 48
9 JI, Haiping CHN 582 quali-shoot-off: 48
10 TEHAUSHEV, Sabin BUL 582 quali-shoot-off: 45
You think ALL FIVE SHOOTERS had the exact same number of 10s, 9s, 8s etc., and the exact same score in all stages of the match, and the exact same number of inner 10s?
In Zagreb, two guys each got 585 and there was a shoot-off. In Atlanta last year, there were three guys with 586 all in a shoot-off. Again, if they had been following the 8.12.2 procedure, it's almost certain SOMEbody would lose.
So, what is the deal with ties going into the RF finals? Do they automatically have a shoot-off? Or am I missing yet another rule? there's lots of them.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42229.42228
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Chris L in NC
Oh, I see--it's "classification" not "finals qualification"
Upon closer reading, I guess there's no conflict. 8.12.2 only comes into play for RF medals, not finals slots.
"8.14.2.1 The classification for the first eight (8) places in 50 m Pistol, 10
m Air Pistol and 25 m Pistol Women or for the first six (6) places in
25 m Rapid Fire Pistol in the Qualification rounds will be made
according to the rules set down in 8.12.2.1 to 8.12.2.3.
8.14.2.2 When in Rapid Fire Pistol there are more than six (6) eligible
for the Finals start because of tied scores, the tie will be broken
by shoot-off."
So 8.14.2.2 specifically does not mention the normal tiebreaking procedure, and all that is necessary to establish a tie for RF shoot-off purposes is to have identical raw numerical scores without regard to any other tiebreaking procedures.
Well, that STILL still blows! They oughta count inner 10s and such instead of spending more time on shoot-offs, unless they think there's a TV audience for it.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42230.42229
"8.14.2.1 The classification for the first eight (8) places in 50 m Pistol, 10
m Air Pistol and 25 m Pistol Women or for the first six (6) places in
25 m Rapid Fire Pistol in the Qualification rounds will be made
according to the rules set down in 8.12.2.1 to 8.12.2.3.
8.14.2.2 When in Rapid Fire Pistol there are more than six (6) eligible
for the Finals start because of tied scores, the tie will be broken
by shoot-off."
So 8.14.2.2 specifically does not mention the normal tiebreaking procedure, and all that is necessary to establish a tie for RF shoot-off purposes is to have identical raw numerical scores without regard to any other tiebreaking procedures.
Well, that STILL still blows! They oughta count inner 10s and such instead of spending more time on shoot-offs, unless they think there's a TV audience for it.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42230.42229
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Larry Lohkamp
Re: RF qual ties: Conflict between 8.12.2.1-.3 and 8.14.2.1?
: I DID buy a rulebook. You can download rules for free from the ISSF site. (and it's "ought" not "aught" smarty pants!!!!) You're right, inner 10s do count for something and I was under the impression they didn't, which I will explain shortly. In any case, inner 10s don't count for nearly enough if you ax me.
Downloading the ISSF version results in an incomplete picture of the rules for the US (NC is still part of the US, I think). To shoot here you need all of the USA only rules that are only available when you buy a rulesbook... and then there's all of the corrections that you get to paste into the book between updates. Great fun digging through all of it when you're running a match. I had a range alibi, double shooter alibi, and disabled pistol (one shooter) during a Standard Pistol 10-second series. Score that target! Then there's all those deduct point rules. Does anybody actually do that for local matches?
I guess I am a "smarty pants", since I managed to read and understand the procedure before blasting away on the board. And just so you understand how bogus this international pistol stuff is, the NRA has the same tie breaking rules for international pistol. I have their rulebook too.
.42233.42229
Downloading the ISSF version results in an incomplete picture of the rules for the US (NC is still part of the US, I think). To shoot here you need all of the USA only rules that are only available when you buy a rulesbook... and then there's all of the corrections that you get to paste into the book between updates. Great fun digging through all of it when you're running a match. I had a range alibi, double shooter alibi, and disabled pistol (one shooter) during a Standard Pistol 10-second series. Score that target! Then there's all those deduct point rules. Does anybody actually do that for local matches?
I guess I am a "smarty pants", since I managed to read and understand the procedure before blasting away on the board. And just so you understand how bogus this international pistol stuff is, the NRA has the same tie breaking rules for international pistol. I have their rulebook too.
.42233.42229
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Chris L in NC
Even if YOU never EVER misunderstand a rule ...
... some of us do now and then , even those of us who have spent years reading and applying procedural rules, not to mention statutes, constitutions, regulations, court opinions, and general legal doctrines. Nobody is born knowing this and nobody is perfect. A Florida Supreme Court justice has observed that they frequently divide 4 to 3 as to what the "plain meaning" of a statute is. Therefore, shooters in general may be expected occasionally to overlook or not correctly interpret some provisions in the 77-page Pistol Rules or the 63-page Technical Rules, especially if we've never had occasion to refer to parts of them because we've never run matches in those events.
Note that all cited match results were World Cups or World Championships, run by ISSF rules, not those of USA Shooting. Note also that references to NRA rules were those for bullseye and highpower, not international pistol rules. When we start having NRA international matches in NC, and we might someday, that is when we'll haul out that particular rulebook.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42273.42233
Note that all cited match results were World Cups or World Championships, run by ISSF rules, not those of USA Shooting. Note also that references to NRA rules were those for bullseye and highpower, not international pistol rules. When we start having NRA international matches in NC, and we might someday, that is when we'll haul out that particular rulebook.
chrisatty-at-hotmail.com.42273.42233
-
Spencer C
No conflict - different circumstances
8.12.0 sets out when each procedure will be followed, the other bits then go on to describe the tie breaking procedures.
...Ties in Olympic events after the qualification stage are only
broken to decide who should participate in the Finals. Such ties
will be broken in accordance with Rules 8.14.2.1 to 8.14.2.3.
Ties in non-Olympic events and categories will be decided as
follows (the same rules may be applied when Olympic events
are conducted without finals
.42296.42229
...Ties in Olympic events after the qualification stage are only
broken to decide who should participate in the Finals. Such ties
will be broken in accordance with Rules 8.14.2.1 to 8.14.2.3.
Ties in non-Olympic events and categories will be decided as
follows (the same rules may be applied when Olympic events
are conducted without finals
.42296.42229