Installing a Dioptre rear and globe front sight on a rifle.

[SlartyBartFast]

Looking to set up a rifle for shooting "sporting rifle" targets. Might be able to get a good deal on a used Savage BTV MKII with a thumbhole stock.

For the globe sight, seems straight forward. Buy an adapter than attaches to the end of the barrel and the globe attaches to that.

What about the rear? There seem to be plenty of adapters to mount Picatinny rails using the mounting holes already on the gun. But what about a dovetail? And I'm guessing I'd need one that extends backwards to the rear of the action.

And is the Anschutz dovetail an 11mm? I might be able to get an Anschutz sight set second hand.

[Tim S]

Yes, Anschutz rearsights are made to fit an 11mm dovetail. However depending on the exact angle/dimension of any dovetail on the Savage receiver, some fettling may be required.

I'm not aware of any target aperture rearsights that mount onto a Picatinny rail. European made rearsights like the Centra, Gehmann, and Hammerli are all intended for dovetails atop the receiver. US-made rearsights like the Redfield and Warner require a mounting bracket bolted onto the side of the receiver; the bracket is specific to the action to ensure the windage adjustment is central, and are available in various heights to suit foresight height. Some sights like the Centrra LR and RPA Trakker are made in both top/dovetail and side/bracket form. I think some of pre-war US rearsight like the Lyman bolted directly onto the side of the receiver.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm not aware of any target aperture rearsights that mount onto a Picatinny rail.

Thanks for your answer. Either I was unclear or you misunderstood.

I'm well aware the sights need a dovetail and not a picatinny rail.
The rifle I'm looking at has two weaver style bases attached to the receiver. One in front of the ejection port and one behind.

Here's a picture with the two bases removed:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53 ... 82b27a.png

My problem is that I can find picatinny and weaver rails that will bolt in those holes and lots of adapters from weaver or dovetail to picatinny.

But I can't find any dovetail rails or weaver to dovetail adapters.

Already, I think the fact I would need the rail extended towards the back of the receiver will make finding an off the shelf part difficult.

[Peter_Scant]

I think you are faced with getting a custom adapter made. Depending on you mechanical skills this may be of help http://www.brownells.com/optics-mountin ... -1747.aspx

[Tim S]

I see. I think the fault lay on both sides. By the way, you may get more help by being a tad less snarky.

OK, I see your dilemma as most bolt-on rails are for scopes. Have you thought of getting an 11mm dovetail rail like this: http://www.championshooters.com/index.p ... Itemid=111 drilled and tapped to bolt onto the existing Weaver base holes? Or fit a side mounting rearsight like a Redfield or Williams. If the receiver isn't already drilled and tapped, you'd need to have this done before you could fit the mouting bracket.

[SlartyBartFast]

Thanks to both of you for those two links. Either will require me to find someone with more skill than I have to do the necessary cutting and drilling. But at least my quest doesn't seem so futile now.


[quote="Tim S"By the way, you may get more help by being a tad less snarky.[/quote]

No "snark" intended.
I always find that it's a bad idea to try and read meaning or attitude into text communication. As my daily work is writing technical documentation, I probably come across as more direct in text than I mean to.

[mtncwru]

I started with a Savage Mark II BTV, and had a set of Williams aperture sights installed. It was a pain, honestly, and unless you can find a truly spectacular deal, I would suggest tracking down a Mark II FVT and replacing the stock instead. As you've noted, there's no rail, and no one makes a Weaver/Picatinny to dovetail adapter (or if they do, they're doing an excellent job of hiding it). There are sights out there that will attach to a Weaver mount, including one by Centra, but to use one you will likely need a rail that goes backward on the receiver. You might be able to accomplish that by getting a left handed Picatinny rail and screwing it onto the right handed action, but you would need to double-check the hole vs. loading port layout; can't remember if the holes are centered about the loading port or if one set is closer than the other. I'd be happy to dig the Savage out of the safe if you'd like me to check, though.

The dovetail sections that Brownells has are interesting, but they're 3/8" instead of the 11mm you'll need for an Anschutz sight. While you might find a set of Anschutz sights that will clamp down far enough to attach to a 3/8" dovetail (just over 9.5mm), it's certainly not a sure thing.

If you want to use a side-mount rear sight (including the offerings from Williams or Lyman), you will need to have the receiver drilled and tapped, as Savage does not ship any Mark II other than the FVT drilled and tapped.

All of this is not meant to steer you away from the Mark II. As Sporters go, they're excellent guns for the money. But, unless you have some machining resourses you haven't mentioned, I would recommend spending a little extra and getting the FVT, and letting the factory do the sight installation.

If I can answer any questions please let me know!

[SlartyBartFast]

It was a pain, honestly, and unless you can find a truly spectacular deal, I would suggest tracking down a Mark II FVT and replacing the stock instead.

The BSEV is more expensive than the FVT. And I see the FVT as a bit of a deadend. You can change the stock, with some cutting required to make the sights fit, but then you're stuck as-is with the sights.

As you've noted, there's no rail, and no one makes a Weaver/Picatinny to dovetail adapter (or if they do, they're doing an excellent job of hiding it).

In this day and age of CNC machining, it's hard to imagine that it is so difficult to have all type of adaptor for all possible scenarios. Or at least have production of one be a simple select from options and a very quick turn-around.

On the other hand, many sight manufacturers list dozens of different models to mount on common rifles.

I've posted a few times, and talk with friends and other often, about promoting shooting sports. HTH do FWB, Walther, et al expect the sport of target shooting with dioptre sights to grow if the introductory requirements are specific guns and equipment with huge price tags?

Seems to me that it would be in their interest to have a way to mount their sights onto common rifles so that people could get a taste for the sport and then upgrade the sights and/or their rifle as they see fit.

Or is the European firearms industry more standard in their rails or receiver drilling and North America is simply uniteresting to them as a market?

The national associations should be more helpful in pointing towards sources for equipment as well.

If you've been plinking on the farm and want to develop your skills, first you have to stumble across the fact there's a national association, find their recreational program (http://sfc-ftc.ca/en/shortcuts/for_shoo ... ogram.html), then you have to be really motivated to find out about aperture sights and how to mount them on your plinking rifle.

All of this is not meant to steer you away from the Mark II. As Sporters go, they're excellent guns for the money.

Thanks. I've been given advice to wait it out and keep pouring over classifieds for supposedly easy to come by Anschutz's, and told the trigger on the Savage is sub-par in comparison.

I've also been offered contact information to gunsmiths and machinists.

There is actually someone selling an Anschutz/CIL 190 nearby. I would be trading shooting a 40 year old club rifle to shooting one of similar vintage, but then it would be mine and I could be adjusting the gun and sights to my personal preference.

But there's a bit of vanity in me that wants to be shooting something new, shiny, and a bit different from everyone else in the club.

[abinok]

you might consider...

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/AirForce_ ... _Guns/2236

The rear sight is detachable from the base, and is designed to slip into any 1" ring.

[SlartyBartFast]

you might consider...

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/AirForce_ ... _Guns/2236

The rear sight is detachable from the base, and is designed to slip into any 1" ring.

Interesting. Thank for the link.

[Tim S]

In short,

no there doesn't seem to be enough interest for a Weaver-11mm adaptor for anybody to market one. In part this is because the European manufacturers all use a very similar dovetail, so it's very simple for other European accessory manufacturers to vary the sight to suit different dovetails, but it would be harder to adapt this to a Weaver or Picatinny rail. However it seems most owners of North American made sporting rifles want to fit telescopic sights, not expensive European aperture rearsights, so it's probably not financially worthwhile for Anschutz et al to develop a Weaver-rail compatible version of their sights. The Centra LR is available to fit many more mounts, but it was designed by a full-bore/Palma shooter, a discipline where a receiver dovetail is not the standard rearsight mount. The lack of interest in aperture sights US sporting shooters would mean the lack of a market for US small custom parts works.

Don't forget that in many countries new shooters will be introduced to smallbore at a club rather than the farmyard, and will use club owned purpose-built target rifles, rather than trying to adapt their own Sporting rifle (which they may not own anyway). When those shooters come to buy their first rifle many will buy second hand at a considerable saving over new: my first rifle, an Anschutz 1407 cost me £300 with a Gehmann jacket and sling, and a spotting scope and stand included.

[CTurner]

Not sure if this is allowed or not, if not please delete. i think this maybe close to what you are asking for: http://www.ebay.com/itm/331431334392

That said, I hate even using riser blocks. I always worry about repeatability or this piece or that part coming loose although many have shot great scores using risers and adapters.

[dlt4x4]

here is a way to get top mount or redfield type side mount sights on a 3/8 rail rimfire. I believe this is what you are trying to do.

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.a ... tem=SM7015

I have used this base and it works as advertised.

A Lipski sight base will be the side mount if needed.
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/shop/h ... -base.html

This might be too high for your application.

[dc.fireman]

Contact Bill Earnest, of Earnest Shooting Products.

He has machined many a custom mount for people seeking all sorts of sighting solutions, for an extremely reasonable price. His shop is located in Trevorton, Pa. He doesnt have a website, but his catalog has been uploaded to many a high school rifle teams website enought times, that your favorite search engine should have no trouble locating it.

[mtncwru]

Oooh, yes, good idea. And don't ask for metric hardware when you call :-)

[SlartyBartFast]

Contact Bill Earnest, of Earnest Shooting Products.

He has machined many a custom mount for people seeking all sorts of sighting solutions, for an extremely reasonable price. His shop is located in Trevorton, Pa. He doesnt have a website, but his catalog has been uploaded to many a high school rifle teams website enought times, that your favorite search engine should have no trouble locating it.

Thank you for the suggestion. Thank you to everyone else as well.

[pcw]

I guess I should have chimed in here sooner. I was given about two cases of CCI Blazers at the height of the 22 ammo shortage and traded it for a Savage MK II in a thumbhole stock.

I had intended to use it as a biathlon rifle. I bought sights from Eastern Sierra Armory (They make a biathlon stock for the MK II) that used the Airforce sight. Two of the screws lined up with the Weaver sight bases and I had a third drilled and tapped to hold the base. I put a Anschutz rail in the fore end and added an adjustable butt plate from Brownells. I also installed the Apachee trigger mod.

The rifle is quite accurate, the trigger is pretty nice but the butt plate is marginal and with the thumbhole stock it would be tough to install an adjustable cheek piece. The grip on the thumb hole is too far from the trigger for my hands. This could be padded out but would make the thumbhole useless. The way the Airforce sight fits into the base doesn't allow for any change of eye relief. There is another stock that could be more easily fitted with an adjustable cheek piece.

I wanted a rifle I could practice with and the gift of the Blazers allowed me to get one for very little money. I had looked in the classifieds here, but I never had the money in hand when I found a good deal. There have been a few very good deals on the board lately. The MK II is OK, but I wish I had been a bit more patience and waited for something to show up here. I also wanted a repeater for biathlon, so I was somewhat limited in choices. Now I have an Anschutz and the Savage doesn't get touched. I'm not sure how much I could sell it for. Anybody want to buy a highly modified Savage?

[MikeBoy]

Here is what I did to mount a 11 mm top mount rear sight on a Mark II Lady Hunter on the cheap.

Kimber 82G sight set that was not in use. Adjustable butt plate from Archer Airguns. Champion Shooter Supply accessory rail. And Gun Shack Accu-Trigger Target spring.


Williams .465' Dovetail Target Globe Front Sight Attaching Base.


Weaver 48201 1 Piece Tip-Off Base TO-9


The setup works great and best of all the parts are easily sourced over the counter items.

Good luck with your project!

Mike